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Vedic Physics
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Vedic Physics
This is a part of the Vedic civilization topics. Unlike the others, this will concentrate solely on Vedic Physics, Nyaya-Vaisesika Darsana(school of logical physics) and related subjects.
I will first reintroduce the vedic cosmology of the universe:
The Theological school
The entire universe/space is called Prakriti and manifests by a vibration of the Svra, a current of a life-force or a superstring called the Parabrahman and the Purush. This in turns causes the subtle elements of the 5 ethers, or strings(the quality of ether is called sound) to vibrate, the distinct vibration causes the Pancha-Mahabhuttas, the five physical elements.
The five main elements occur in the following order of aggregation:
Akasha(Ether) Tejas(energy) Vayu(forces/fields) Pritvhi(Atomic elements) and Apas(fluid)
Except for ether, all of the elements are composed of discreet and distinct indivisible particles called Paramanu(beyond atoms) i.e. light is composed of discreet and distinct particles.
Space, soul and time are eternal.
The Rationalist school
The Darsana's were part of the six rationalist schools of the Vedas, the main schools were Nyaya(logic), Vaiseshika(physics), Yoga(metaphysics) and Sankhya(philosophy)
Each school of thought is composed of it's own Sutras or aphorisms, rules or formulas, that condense volumes of knowledge into a few sentences. They also contain Vriti(commentary), Bhaksha(explanations) by several teachers, making them self-contained texts on their discipline. Each Darsana also has a Sutrakala, that is the first teacher that systematized the knowledge of the Vedic teachers into sutras. A full online Darsana of Yoga is available online here:
The geneology of the teachers of the schools are mentioned and can be traced far into vedic times to the Krita Yuga, more than 5000 years ago.
The Nyaya-Vaisesika Sutra was founded by Rishi Gautama and Kanada. The Nyaya and Vaisesika schools originally started as separate schools, but then merged into one due to their common rational approach.
The Naya-Vaiseshika Sutra consists of 373 Sutras and is composed of 12 chapters. It's main postulates are:
1. All of the universe is composed of the 5 mahabhuttas and the 4 non physicals: that is Fluid, Atomic elements, fields/force, energy, ether and space, time, mind and soul.
2. Except ether, all of the physical elements are made of discreet and distinct paramanus or atoms
3. Space-time is a frame in which the physical universe exists
4.there are seven categories of experience, which are substance, quality, activity, generality, particularity, inherence, and non-existence.
5. Energy and mass are equivalent.
The Vaiseshika Sutras deal with the investigation, observation and mechanics of the universe and the elements and the theory of space and time. A lot of the modern sciences are covered, including laws of motion, gravitation, thermodynamics, waves, hydrostatics and magnetism among others.
Here are some of the Sutras(Source) The source is from an Indian microbiologist.
Force is that which displaces, holds together or moves things apart.V.S 1.1.20
In the absence of a force, a particle of matter experiences no change. V.S 1.1.6
The forces to be considered are an external force, gravity, that with causes attraction of particles, that which causes repulsion of particles and the internal movements of them in matter.
Thus, vaisheShika aims at understanding a substance in terms of the effect of external forces that act on it including gravity and the internal forces on its particles that cause their attraction, repulsion and vibrations. Then the text makes a rather interesting statement: V.S 1.1.13
Action is opposed by an equivalent opposite reaction - V.S 5.1.16-18
The diversities of the movement of an arrow are due to the consecutive changes in the components of the acting forces. The stored energy provides the propulsion to the arrow and this causes it move further to a high point. This component keeps reducing while that of gravity increases resulting in its fall.Once the work against gravity ceases then the body reaches an energy-less state falling under gravity. - V.S 1.1.27
The force on a body is the resultant of gravity and the work done against it. V.S 5.1.13
In the absence of all other forces (saMyoga-bindings) gravity exists. V.S 5.1.7
The “guna” of forces (direction) prevents a magnitude from being obtained - V.S.1.1.20a
The nature of physical changes in matter is the terms of work being done on the basic particles that constitute matter. .V.S 2.1.14
The particular nature of air is suggested by the mixing of gases that occurs on their collision.
despite of being made of atoms and occupying space air fails show orderly movement so its form cannot be perceived: V.S 4.1.8
Solids occupy space and assume form due to conglomeration of the constituent particles: V.S 4.1.6
The (fluid’s) particles possess energy. This causes them to possess the property of fluidity. The heat bearing rays provide the particles with energy to form a gas and rise. The heated particles of air impact the vapor and with this energy it mixes with it. Freezing and melting of a liquid as being a result of heat being taken up or given up by its particles V.S 5.2.9
Some apparently solid substances like ghee, lac and wax are in reality liquids, as their particles are naturally “heat-conjoined” or disorganized as in water. Other true solid substances such as tin, lead, iron, silver and gold need their atoms to be supplied with external heat to disorder them before they become a fluid V.S 2.1.6-7
Any body’s mass needs to be wholly explained in terms of its constituent particles. V.S 1.1.8-9
A substance can only emerge from another substance and not on its own eventhough its properties change from one to another. V.S 9.1.9
Any fundamental particular entity can be a constituent multiple substances: V.S 1.1.22
Any substance comprising of two or more primary particle types requires a chemical reaction to generate it- the conjoining and break up of prexisting molecules: V.S 1.1.23
The “molecules” are stated as emerging from combinations between the fundamental entities: V.S 1.1.25
Forces are necessary to bring about combination and break up of molecules: V.S 1.1.28
The combinations of particles to produce molecules result in substances with states very different from those of the original particles: V.S 4.1.9
I have been researching extensively into the VS and found more information scattered about on several web sites. I have managed to locate a Hindi web site from the Indian university of Banaras which has an extensive discourse on on it's web site. Unfortunately it is in Hindi. I have managed to have some of it translated by a friend of mine.
I will expand further on the laws of motion in the VS:
Prashastpada, 5th century commentator on VS mentiond two forms of physical force:
1. vega (mechanical)
2 sthitisthApakatA (elasticity)
Prashastpada has defined ‘vega’ in the following ways: -
1. It is as a result of mechanical force that action is produced.
2. vega is proportional to the work produced and works in a given direction.
3. vega opposes combination of matter and sometimes one vega produces other vegas in sequence.
The inference of the above definition is as follows:-
1. vega (mechanical force) is a special cause for action.
2. vega is proportional to the action produced and works in a given direction.
3. vega is opposed by an equivalent opposite reaction
Kanadas laws:
1: In the production or increment of karma (i.e. motion), the root cause is force. In other words, there is incremental or decremental change in motion.
2: This law is a law of the measure of force. According to this, so long mechanical force works, there is change in motion i.e. there is momentum. To find its value, it is calculated how much work it produces in a unit time.
Mathematically, the rate of change in momentum i.e. the increment in work in unit time is proportional to the force in action. Also, this change is in the direction of the force.
Suppose that the mass of an object is 'm' and in time interval 't', the velocity of the object changes from 'u' to 'v' due to the force acting on it. Then,
Initial momentum = mu
Final momentum = mv
Change in momentum = m(v-u)
Therefore, the rate of change of momentum = m(v-u)/t = ma (from Kanada's first law)
From Kandas second law,
force is proportional to the rate of change of momentum.
Or, p k ma
Or, p = kma (where k is a constant)
If m=1 and a=1, then
1 = k*1*1 or k = 1
Or, p = ma
Therefore, unit force is the one that produces unit acceleration in an object of unit mass.
The VS then goes to say that force is a result of work and is not a physical quantity. Which is superior to Newtons law that measures it as a physical quantity.
[edit on 16-2-2005 by Indigo_Child]
This is a part of the Vedic civilization topics. Unlike the others, this will concentrate solely on Vedic Physics, Nyaya-Vaisesika Darsana(school of logical physics) and related subjects.
I will first reintroduce the vedic cosmology of the universe:
The Theological school
The entire universe/space is called Prakriti and manifests by a vibration of the Svra, a current of a life-force or a superstring called the Parabrahman and the Purush. This in turns causes the subtle elements of the 5 ethers, or strings(the quality of ether is called sound) to vibrate, the distinct vibration causes the Pancha-Mahabhuttas, the five physical elements.
The five main elements occur in the following order of aggregation:
Akasha(Ether) Tejas(energy) Vayu(forces/fields) Pritvhi(Atomic elements) and Apas(fluid)
Except for ether, all of the elements are composed of discreet and distinct indivisible particles called Paramanu(beyond atoms) i.e. light is composed of discreet and distinct particles.
Space, soul and time are eternal.
The Rationalist school
The Darsana's were part of the six rationalist schools of the Vedas, the main schools were Nyaya(logic), Vaiseshika(physics), Yoga(metaphysics) and Sankhya(philosophy)
Each school of thought is composed of it's own Sutras or aphorisms, rules or formulas, that condense volumes of knowledge into a few sentences. They also contain Vriti(commentary), Bhaksha(explanations) by several teachers, making them self-contained texts on their discipline. Each Darsana also has a Sutrakala, that is the first teacher that systematized the knowledge of the Vedic teachers into sutras. A full online Darsana of Yoga is available online here:
The geneology of the teachers of the schools are mentioned and can be traced far into vedic times to the Krita Yuga, more than 5000 years ago.
The Nyaya-Vaisesika Sutra was founded by Rishi Gautama and Kanada. The Nyaya and Vaisesika schools originally started as separate schools, but then merged into one due to their common rational approach.
The Naya-Vaiseshika Sutra consists of 373 Sutras and is composed of 12 chapters. It's main postulates are:
1. All of the universe is composed of the 5 mahabhuttas and the 4 non physicals: that is Fluid, Atomic elements, fields/force, energy, ether and space, time, mind and soul.
2. Except ether, all of the physical elements are made of discreet and distinct paramanus or atoms
3. Space-time is a frame in which the physical universe exists
4.there are seven categories of experience, which are substance, quality, activity, generality, particularity, inherence, and non-existence.
5. Energy and mass are equivalent.
The Vaiseshika Sutras deal with the investigation, observation and mechanics of the universe and the elements and the theory of space and time. A lot of the modern sciences are covered, including laws of motion, gravitation, thermodynamics, waves, hydrostatics and magnetism among others.
Here are some of the Sutras(Source) The source is from an Indian microbiologist.
Force is that which displaces, holds together or moves things apart.V.S 1.1.20
In the absence of a force, a particle of matter experiences no change. V.S 1.1.6
The forces to be considered are an external force, gravity, that with causes attraction of particles, that which causes repulsion of particles and the internal movements of them in matter.
Thus, vaisheShika aims at understanding a substance in terms of the effect of external forces that act on it including gravity and the internal forces on its particles that cause their attraction, repulsion and vibrations. Then the text makes a rather interesting statement: V.S 1.1.13
Action is opposed by an equivalent opposite reaction - V.S 5.1.16-18
The diversities of the movement of an arrow are due to the consecutive changes in the components of the acting forces. The stored energy provides the propulsion to the arrow and this causes it move further to a high point. This component keeps reducing while that of gravity increases resulting in its fall.Once the work against gravity ceases then the body reaches an energy-less state falling under gravity. - V.S 1.1.27
The force on a body is the resultant of gravity and the work done against it. V.S 5.1.13
In the absence of all other forces (saMyoga-bindings) gravity exists. V.S 5.1.7
The “guna” of forces (direction) prevents a magnitude from being obtained - V.S.1.1.20a
The nature of physical changes in matter is the terms of work being done on the basic particles that constitute matter. .V.S 2.1.14
The particular nature of air is suggested by the mixing of gases that occurs on their collision.
despite of being made of atoms and occupying space air fails show orderly movement so its form cannot be perceived: V.S 4.1.8
Solids occupy space and assume form due to conglomeration of the constituent particles: V.S 4.1.6
The (fluid’s) particles possess energy. This causes them to possess the property of fluidity. The heat bearing rays provide the particles with energy to form a gas and rise. The heated particles of air impact the vapor and with this energy it mixes with it. Freezing and melting of a liquid as being a result of heat being taken up or given up by its particles V.S 5.2.9
Some apparently solid substances like ghee, lac and wax are in reality liquids, as their particles are naturally “heat-conjoined” or disorganized as in water. Other true solid substances such as tin, lead, iron, silver and gold need their atoms to be supplied with external heat to disorder them before they become a fluid V.S 2.1.6-7
Any body’s mass needs to be wholly explained in terms of its constituent particles. V.S 1.1.8-9
A substance can only emerge from another substance and not on its own eventhough its properties change from one to another. V.S 9.1.9
Any fundamental particular entity can be a constituent multiple substances: V.S 1.1.22
Any substance comprising of two or more primary particle types requires a chemical reaction to generate it- the conjoining and break up of prexisting molecules: V.S 1.1.23
The “molecules” are stated as emerging from combinations between the fundamental entities: V.S 1.1.25
Forces are necessary to bring about combination and break up of molecules: V.S 1.1.28
The combinations of particles to produce molecules result in substances with states very different from those of the original particles: V.S 4.1.9
I have been researching extensively into the VS and found more information scattered about on several web sites. I have managed to locate a Hindi web site from the Indian university of Banaras which has an extensive discourse on on it's web site. Unfortunately it is in Hindi. I have managed to have some of it translated by a friend of mine.
I will expand further on the laws of motion in the VS:
Prashastpada, 5th century commentator on VS mentiond two forms of physical force:
1. vega (mechanical)
2 sthitisthApakatA (elasticity)
Prashastpada has defined ‘vega’ in the following ways: -
1. It is as a result of mechanical force that action is produced.
2. vega is proportional to the work produced and works in a given direction.
3. vega opposes combination of matter and sometimes one vega produces other vegas in sequence.
The inference of the above definition is as follows:-
1. vega (mechanical force) is a special cause for action.
2. vega is proportional to the action produced and works in a given direction.
3. vega is opposed by an equivalent opposite reaction
Kanadas laws:
1: In the production or increment of karma (i.e. motion), the root cause is force. In other words, there is incremental or decremental change in motion.
2: This law is a law of the measure of force. According to this, so long mechanical force works, there is change in motion i.e. there is momentum. To find its value, it is calculated how much work it produces in a unit time.
Mathematically, the rate of change in momentum i.e. the increment in work in unit time is proportional to the force in action. Also, this change is in the direction of the force.
Suppose that the mass of an object is 'm' and in time interval 't', the velocity of the object changes from 'u' to 'v' due to the force acting on it. Then,
Initial momentum = mu
Final momentum = mv
Change in momentum = m(v-u)
Therefore, the rate of change of momentum = m(v-u)/t = ma (from Kanada's first law)
From Kandas second law,
force is proportional to the rate of change of momentum.
Or, p k ma
Or, p = kma (where k is a constant)
If m=1 and a=1, then
1 = k*1*1 or k = 1
Or, p = ma
Therefore, unit force is the one that produces unit acceleration in an object of unit mass.
The VS then goes to say that force is a result of work and is not a physical quantity. Which is superior to Newtons law that measures it as a physical quantity.
[edit on 16-2-2005 by Indigo_Child]
Good research Indigo child. I dont know if this will help you or not but I have right now a book in my hand
"Vedic Mathematics" by Bharati Krsna Tirthaji Maharaj. According to
this book, vedic mathematics is one of the strongest and most powerful way of calculating the most complex equation in mind (without calculators !). I
started reading the chapters which are divided as "Purva"(sections) which starts with some excerpts from different vedic books. Like
"Ekadhikenapurva" ( which talks about the vulgar fractions). There are many purvas which talks about the calculus, differentiation, pythagoras
theorems,value of pi,........
And one of the most shocking news is, This book is called a "Bible" for preparing CAT ( Common Admission Test, the entrance test for admissions to IIM, World's best and toughest management schools !!)
Do you have information about this "mathe-magical" side of vedas! I am quite sure you surely do.
And one of the most shocking news is, This book is called a "Bible" for preparing CAT ( Common Admission Test, the entrance test for admissions to IIM, World's best and toughest management schools !!)
Do you have information about this "mathe-magical" side of vedas! I am quite sure you surely do.
Originally posted by sowhat
Good research Indigo child. I dont know if this will help you or not but I have right now a book in my hand "Vedic Mathematics" by Bharati Krsna Tirthaji Maharaj. According to this book, vedic mathematics is one of the strongest and most powerful way of calculating the most complex equation in mind (without calculators !). I started reading the chapters which are divided as "Purva"(sections) which starts with some excerpts from different vedic books. Like "Ekadhikenapurva" ( which talks about the vulgar fractions). There are many purvas which talks about the calculus, differentiation, pythagoras theorems,value of pi,........
And one of the most shocking news is, This book is called a "Bible" for preparing CAT ( Common Admission Test, the entrance test for admissions to IIM, World's best and toughest management schools !!)
Do you have information about this "mathe-magical" side of vedas! I am quite sure you surely do.
Yes, I have quite a bit of research on Vedic Mathematics. I was initially dubious of it's origins, however it appears the mathematical terms and laws it uses actually are also present in the Vedas. I also own the book. However, although a very powerful system of mathematics, it does not live up to the title of "mage-matics" and I found it quite unpractical. Some of the so called rapid "one-line" method are actually too difficult. And what really perturbs me about the book is, the examples it gives for the more complex operations like factorization and augumental division are fairly easy, but it does not know tell you how do the more complex ones.
Example:
To factorize 2x^2 + 5x + 2(the example given)
You use the proportionality sutra, by splitting the middle term into parts that have the same ratio to the first and last term and this gives us our first factor.
Therefore: 2x^2 + 5x + 2
2:4 and 1: 2
Therefore the factor is (x+2)
Then you simply divide (2x + 2) by (x+2) to get the second factor, which gives us 2x + 1. Very simple and powerful.
Except, when it is harder like 3x^2 +13x - 30. You find yourself using trial and error looking for the numbers the 13 can be divided into that will have same ratio with the first(3) and last term(30) and it takes ages finding it! I mean, how would you know that the numbers to split it into should be 18 and -5 to get the factor(x+6) If I used the Vedic technique in an exam to factorize a quadratic I would be there all day.
And, an even harder question in the book is the factorization of 12x^2 + 13x -4. The first factor is (3x + 4) and I am still amiss as to how that is worked out using the VM technique.
The book does that with every calculation. It works out the easy one for you with the VM technique and gets your hopes up, then gives you a hard question and leaves you in despair.
Towards the end, it mentions how VM also deals with applied mechanics, hydrostatics, dynamics, pneumatics, astronomy and complex trig - but lo and behold, it says "we won't about talk these yet" and I wonder what it means by "yet" when theres only 2 pages left to the end of the book.
[edit on 20-2-2005 by Indigo_Child]
I've had another section translated, this is on the sutras on energy: They are as follows:
Vaiseshika defines energy as being a radiant thing(i.e. energy is radiation) and energy is related to temperature and motion of a particle.
Prashatpad has discussed four kinds of energy: terrestrial, celestial, abdominal and Akaraj. These are defined according to their source:
Terrestrial: When fuels are burnt "with a flame" such as wood or coal
Celestial: The energy produced by the sun and in electricity
Abdonimal: The cause of the process of digestion or subphysical.
Akaraj: Paraphysical, metals like gold and platinum have this kind of energy.
There are material obstructions of two kinds:
1. That which absorbs energy.
2 That which refracts energy(the knowledge of refraction of energy is
corroborated by the study of spectroscopy(Anshubodhini) which we will hopefuly cover later)
That unseen cause of the motion of an iron rod towards a magnet and the effects of eletricity are different kinds of energies.
Sound(waves) is also an energy and there are many forms of sound:
1. Sound that is in matter
2. Sound-aspect of matter
If would seem from the above, that not only are sound, light, heat, electricity and magnetism seen to the same, but particle-wave duality is also understood and the refraction of energy and matter. I wonder what kind of "paraphysical" energy is in gold and platinum? Anyone got an idea?
[edit on 20-2-2005 by Indigo_Child]
Vaiseshika defines energy as being a radiant thing(i.e. energy is radiation) and energy is related to temperature and motion of a particle.
Prashatpad has discussed four kinds of energy: terrestrial, celestial, abdominal and Akaraj. These are defined according to their source:
Terrestrial: When fuels are burnt "with a flame" such as wood or coal
Celestial: The energy produced by the sun and in electricity
Abdonimal: The cause of the process of digestion or subphysical.
Akaraj: Paraphysical, metals like gold and platinum have this kind of energy.
There are material obstructions of two kinds:
1. That which absorbs energy.
2 That which refracts energy(the knowledge of refraction of energy is
corroborated by the study of spectroscopy(Anshubodhini) which we will hopefuly cover later)
That unseen cause of the motion of an iron rod towards a magnet and the effects of eletricity are different kinds of energies.
Sound(waves) is also an energy and there are many forms of sound:
1. Sound that is in matter
2. Sound-aspect of matter
If would seem from the above, that not only are sound, light, heat, electricity and magnetism seen to the same, but particle-wave duality is also understood and the refraction of energy and matter. I wonder what kind of "paraphysical" energy is in gold and platinum? Anyone got an idea?
[edit on 20-2-2005 by Indigo_Child]
The Physics of light
The first physics of light in the modern world was proposed by Sir Isac Newton, that demonstrated that light can be split by a prism into it's component rays/colours, however he believed light to be of infinite speed. His physics of light was rejected by mainstream science at the time. However, in Vedic India, the physics of light was understood and accepted. We also know that they had calculated the speed of light.
As we have demonstrated in the previous post, the Vedic Indians understood the process of refraction and absorbtion of energy by "material obstructions" and they understood heat, eletricity and magnetism to be forms of energy. It is already understood by the elemental theory that light is also an energy and is composed of discreet units. This was of course was not understood in modern times till Max Plank and Einstein in the 20th cetury devised quantum theory after the study of black body radiation and the photoelectric effect.
I present further proof of the understanding of the physics and properties of light from various schools of Vedas:
The Mimaska school: A flame is considered to comprise of light particles in constant motion and forming a radiation diffusing away from the wick. The field of vision of an eye extends out to in increasing circles and ends at the object. Cakrapani however felt that light rays move out in all directions much as sound waves do, the difference being that light travels faster.
The school of Ayurveda(medicine): Light arriving at the retina serves both to illuminate the world world, and thus become the faculty of vision.
Varahamihira, the reflection of light is caused by light particles arriving on an object and then back-scattering (kiranavighattana, murcchana). Vatsyayana refers to this phenomenon as rasmiparavartana and this explains the casting of shadows and opacity.
Vacaspati interpreted light as composed of minute particles emitted by substances and striking the eyes.
Refraction is caused by the ability of light to penetrate inter-atomic spaces of translucent or transparent materials. Uddyotakara drew a comparison with fluids moving through porous objects - tatra parispandah tiryaggamanam parisravah pata iti.
Colour recognition was understood by the Nyaya-Vaisesikas as being caused by the nature of human eyes - eyes were made up chiefly by unseen tejas particles(I suppose this refers to eye pigments)
We already know they knew all the colours of visible light and their order in the electromagnetic spectrum, from the metaphysical charka system, of 7 main energy vorticies in the body from the base of the spine to the top of the head, each vibrating at a certain frequency and having a certain colour. They are as follows: red, orange, yellow, green, blue, indigo, violet. This is also taught by Rama's acharya(teacher) in the Ramayana when he is in school.
This knowledge can also be found in the Vedas(it should not be surprising, as the schools are based on the Vedas)
"Seven horses draw the chariot of the sun, tied by snakes". Rg Veda 5. 45. 9
The above poetic verse is extremely interesting, because not only does "horse" mean rays of light in this context, but the motion of a snake is curved, and it would therefore imply they knew light did not travel in straight lines, but in a curved path, which is a predicate of relativity that space-time is curved. This can be further corroborated by a verse in the Athara Veda, that says: there are seven types of sun's rays -
"sapta surayasya rasmayah. "
This a very modern scientific understanding of light. As, they understood light so well, as well as the abilities to reflect and refract it, it would seem logical therefore that some kind of lens devices would have been devised, such as telescopes. It would certainly explain some of the astronomical data recorded in the Vedas. However, we will see later, that the understanding was so advanced that they could do light spectroscopy, which is part of the Amsu Bodhini by Maharishi Bhadarwaja(who also wrote the Vyaamnaika Shastra) and such a device has in fact been fabricated by Indian scientists from directions in it.
[edit on 21-2-2005 by Indigo_Child]
The first physics of light in the modern world was proposed by Sir Isac Newton, that demonstrated that light can be split by a prism into it's component rays/colours, however he believed light to be of infinite speed. His physics of light was rejected by mainstream science at the time. However, in Vedic India, the physics of light was understood and accepted. We also know that they had calculated the speed of light.
As we have demonstrated in the previous post, the Vedic Indians understood the process of refraction and absorbtion of energy by "material obstructions" and they understood heat, eletricity and magnetism to be forms of energy. It is already understood by the elemental theory that light is also an energy and is composed of discreet units. This was of course was not understood in modern times till Max Plank and Einstein in the 20th cetury devised quantum theory after the study of black body radiation and the photoelectric effect.
I present further proof of the understanding of the physics and properties of light from various schools of Vedas:
The Mimaska school: A flame is considered to comprise of light particles in constant motion and forming a radiation diffusing away from the wick. The field of vision of an eye extends out to in increasing circles and ends at the object. Cakrapani however felt that light rays move out in all directions much as sound waves do, the difference being that light travels faster.
The school of Ayurveda(medicine): Light arriving at the retina serves both to illuminate the world world, and thus become the faculty of vision.
Varahamihira, the reflection of light is caused by light particles arriving on an object and then back-scattering (kiranavighattana, murcchana). Vatsyayana refers to this phenomenon as rasmiparavartana and this explains the casting of shadows and opacity.
Vacaspati interpreted light as composed of minute particles emitted by substances and striking the eyes.
Refraction is caused by the ability of light to penetrate inter-atomic spaces of translucent or transparent materials. Uddyotakara drew a comparison with fluids moving through porous objects - tatra parispandah tiryaggamanam parisravah pata iti.
Colour recognition was understood by the Nyaya-Vaisesikas as being caused by the nature of human eyes - eyes were made up chiefly by unseen tejas particles(I suppose this refers to eye pigments)
We already know they knew all the colours of visible light and their order in the electromagnetic spectrum, from the metaphysical charka system, of 7 main energy vorticies in the body from the base of the spine to the top of the head, each vibrating at a certain frequency and having a certain colour. They are as follows: red, orange, yellow, green, blue, indigo, violet. This is also taught by Rama's acharya(teacher) in the Ramayana when he is in school.
This knowledge can also be found in the Vedas(it should not be surprising, as the schools are based on the Vedas)
"Seven horses draw the chariot of the sun, tied by snakes". Rg Veda 5. 45. 9
The above poetic verse is extremely interesting, because not only does "horse" mean rays of light in this context, but the motion of a snake is curved, and it would therefore imply they knew light did not travel in straight lines, but in a curved path, which is a predicate of relativity that space-time is curved. This can be further corroborated by a verse in the Athara Veda, that says: there are seven types of sun's rays -
"sapta surayasya rasmayah. "
This a very modern scientific understanding of light. As, they understood light so well, as well as the abilities to reflect and refract it, it would seem logical therefore that some kind of lens devices would have been devised, such as telescopes. It would certainly explain some of the astronomical data recorded in the Vedas. However, we will see later, that the understanding was so advanced that they could do light spectroscopy, which is part of the Amsu Bodhini by Maharishi Bhadarwaja(who also wrote the Vyaamnaika Shastra) and such a device has in fact been fabricated by Indian scientists from directions in it.
[edit on 21-2-2005 by Indigo_Child]
The secrets of alchemy:
As has been discussed already in other threads, the knowledge of the atomic numbers of elements is implied in the verse in Srimad Bhagvatam, where it said that bells metal is transmuted into gold through an alchemical process and bells metal is an alloy of copper and tin(Cu29 + Sn50 = Au79)
As we know the science of alchemy originates in India, there is also some indications of alchemy in Egypt.
In the above, we saw from the Vaiseseshika Sutras that certain metals are specified that are said to have a paraphysical energy called Akaraj, and it mentions gold and platinum. We also know that Mercury had a very important role in vedic alchemy and is used in many devices, such as the mercury vortex ion engine.
I've discovered somethig very astonishing about these metals. They belong to a rare group of metals called ORMES(Orbitally Rearranged Monoatomic elements) that have only been recently discovered by high energy physicists and possess paraphysical qualities:
The ORME's S or m-state materials are thought to be the precious metal elements in a different atomic state. The following elements have been identified in this different state of matter:
KNOWN ORMUS ELEMENTS
Element Atomic Number
Cobalt 27
Nickel 28
Copper 29
Ruthenium 44
Rhodium 45
Palladium 46
Silver 47
Osmium 76
Iridium 77
Platinum 78
Gold 79
Mercury 80
These m-state elements have been observed to exhibit superconductivity, superfluidity, Josephson tunneling and magnetic levitation.
These m-state elements are also present in many biological systems. They may enhance energy flow in the microtubules inside every living cell.
We are beginning to see now that the physics of Vedic times is extremely advanced and we also have proof of it. We may learn something new about physics yet.
[edit on 21-2-2005 by Indigo_Child]
As has been discussed already in other threads, the knowledge of the atomic numbers of elements is implied in the verse in Srimad Bhagvatam, where it said that bells metal is transmuted into gold through an alchemical process and bells metal is an alloy of copper and tin(Cu29 + Sn50 = Au79)
As we know the science of alchemy originates in India, there is also some indications of alchemy in Egypt.
In the above, we saw from the Vaiseseshika Sutras that certain metals are specified that are said to have a paraphysical energy called Akaraj, and it mentions gold and platinum. We also know that Mercury had a very important role in vedic alchemy and is used in many devices, such as the mercury vortex ion engine.
I've discovered somethig very astonishing about these metals. They belong to a rare group of metals called ORMES(Orbitally Rearranged Monoatomic elements) that have only been recently discovered by high energy physicists and possess paraphysical qualities:
The ORME's S or m-state materials are thought to be the precious metal elements in a different atomic state. The following elements have been identified in this different state of matter:
KNOWN ORMUS ELEMENTS
Element Atomic Number
Cobalt 27
Nickel 28
Copper 29
Ruthenium 44
Rhodium 45
Palladium 46
Silver 47
Osmium 76
Iridium 77
Platinum 78
Gold 79
Mercury 80
These m-state elements have been observed to exhibit superconductivity, superfluidity, Josephson tunneling and magnetic levitation.
These m-state elements are also present in many biological systems. They may enhance energy flow in the microtubules inside every living cell.
We are beginning to see now that the physics of Vedic times is extremely advanced and we also have proof of it. We may learn something new about physics yet.
[edit on 21-2-2005 by Indigo_Child]
Would you, in the interests of "who knew what, and when" post when these things were supposedly discovered/written about in the Vedas?
I'm a tad suspicious of the Rhodium. As far as I can tell, there are no platinum/rhodium mines in India (there are metal exchanges and jewelers on the web that list rhodium but no mines.)
en.wikipedia.org...
Ditto Ruthenium:
www.periodic-table.org.uk...
I'm a tad suspicious of the Rhodium. As far as I can tell, there are no platinum/rhodium mines in India (there are metal exchanges and jewelers on the web that list rhodium but no mines.)
en.wikipedia.org...
Ditto Ruthenium:
www.periodic-table.org.uk...
Rhodium and Ruthenium were not even mentioned. Nor, did I say platinum was manufactured in India. It is given by an example for the kind of metals
that have "paraphysical" energy. There is a hindi word fo platinum apparently. Mercury is not actually mentioned, but I find it interesting that
Mercury was considered to have some latent power and was used in alchemical processes.
As to who knew, what and when.. Well, as all knowledge is attributed to the Vedas and can be found in it and considering the vaiseshika school is part of it(darsana) then this knowledge is as ancient as the Vedas. Prashatpad only provides commentary on the VS and is from the 5th cetnury.
[edit on 21-2-2005 by Indigo_Child]
As to who knew, what and when.. Well, as all knowledge is attributed to the Vedas and can be found in it and considering the vaiseshika school is part of it(darsana) then this knowledge is as ancient as the Vedas. Prashatpad only provides commentary on the VS and is from the 5th cetnury.
[edit on 21-2-2005 by Indigo_Child]
Wave Mechanics
Most of the modern physics of the nature of waves was discovered in the 17th century and the late 16th century. Galileo was the first to study the nature of sound and waves and later his contemporaries advanced it further. However, as we have seen from the mounting evidence, physics in vedic times was more advanced, so not surprisingly the physics of waves was also understood and to an astonishing level(can you expect less from a culture that says everything is vibrations) In fact we've seen it was also understood that particles have a wave nature. As with all vedic physics, this is all united into a metaphysical concept of soul and mind. Remember, in vedic physics the observer is united with the universe. There exists no duality and separation in the vedic model of the universe, it is only part of an illusion of the mind, and it called "maya" thus modern quantum mechanics is closer to the vedic model than the mechanicstic wave or particle model is.
According to VS, there are 2 types of sound(this is from the Hindi text)
1. Musical sound
2. Vocal sound
The cause of sound is due to the result of oscillation of particles in the air causing by the sound wave and the particles working concurrently. The Mimamsaka school held that sound itself and its travel was the result of the condensation and rarefaction of air molecules.
The intensity and timbre of sound was seen as varied and a consequence of the varying kampasantana-samskara (vibrations) of air molecules.
Sound are defined as waves and and there are two modes of waves according to the VS:
1. Traverse
2. Longitudanal
This is explained in ancient Indian literature on music. Musical pitches(sruti) are caused by momentum and frequency of vibrations. A svara, or tone(note, god is also called a svara in the Shiva Purnana) is said to consist of a sruiti(fundamental tone) and anuranana(harmonics) Note, while it defines anuranana as harmonics, the root anu means particles, however as this is defined as a wave and it is already understood that particle and waves dual, therefore it could also mean harmonics of wavicles.
The relationship between svara and sruti, that is momentum and frequency of vibrations and tone, can be understood as parinama(nodal change), vyanjana(manifestation) jativyaktyoriva tadatmyam (genus and species), vivartana(reflection) and karyakaranabhava(cause and effect)
An example is given of a wave on the surface of water. When a disturbance is created(dropping a pebble for instance) it creates a wave, which creates another equal wave with the same motion and this creates another equal and this progression continues towards the end. This is very similar to Huyghen's Principle, which says that each point on a wave front are independent sources, which produce more wave fronts, called wavelets at the same velocity as the propogation wave.
According to VS, sound is the highest quality of the fourth state of matter(ether or akasha) The ether itself has 5 states. It would appear it is referring to the state of plasma. As it explains the first state of ether arises due to high vibrations of sound. It says that matter has a sound aspect, and when a vibration is caused it generates an acoustical wave which travels through the air working with it concurrently and resulting in oscillations of paticles in the air and this causes the intermolecular space of the air to rise in vibrations and causes the atoms to eventually work into the first state of the ether.
As we've learnt from the VS earlier the state of solids, liquids and gas were understood in terms of the kinetic energy i.e. vibrations. When a particle is supplied energy from the "heat bearing rays" it disorders and posses the quality of fluidity(kinetic energy) which then rises into a vapor and joins with gasses in the air and it says the first ether is then produced from further vibrations of air, which can only be caused by providing even more energy, therefore the ether is indeed plasma.
Plasma IS produced by heating gas to the point where it starts to release electrons and become ionised; i.e. charged gas is plasma. I think this is interesting, because for the first time a clear link between plasma and the metaphysical ether has been made. Thus we learn from the VS, that beyond plasma there are four other states. The key is vibration in creating those. However, if we continue to increase the vibration of the frequency in this matter indefinitely, eventually it will cause space itself by causing the fabric of space-time to rupture! Now, that is very interesting because space and time are indeed mentioned as the non-physical elements in the VS. And, please do excuse me for my excitement, it EXPLAINS the physics of the quantum vacuum.
Why does emptiness have such an amazing potential of energy? Because, to create space we need an amazing amount of energy, and therefore the viritual quanta that fluctuate in and out of existence, are actually nothing more than particles vibrating at an amazing rate. This is a revelation to me(In fact, recently, I am getting a lot of information on vibrations and it's connection to the universe)
This ultimately brings us to the Vedic concept of the entire universe being the vibration of the life force. The physics in the Vedas is truly astonishing. And it is no wonder why so many quantum physicists, such as Bell, Bohr, Heisenberg, Schrodinger, Einstein adored and amoured it so much. As Einstein said, when referring to how god created the universe in Bhagvad Gita - everything else seemed superflous.
Most of the modern physics of the nature of waves was discovered in the 17th century and the late 16th century. Galileo was the first to study the nature of sound and waves and later his contemporaries advanced it further. However, as we have seen from the mounting evidence, physics in vedic times was more advanced, so not surprisingly the physics of waves was also understood and to an astonishing level(can you expect less from a culture that says everything is vibrations) In fact we've seen it was also understood that particles have a wave nature. As with all vedic physics, this is all united into a metaphysical concept of soul and mind. Remember, in vedic physics the observer is united with the universe. There exists no duality and separation in the vedic model of the universe, it is only part of an illusion of the mind, and it called "maya" thus modern quantum mechanics is closer to the vedic model than the mechanicstic wave or particle model is.
According to VS, there are 2 types of sound(this is from the Hindi text)
1. Musical sound
2. Vocal sound
The cause of sound is due to the result of oscillation of particles in the air causing by the sound wave and the particles working concurrently. The Mimamsaka school held that sound itself and its travel was the result of the condensation and rarefaction of air molecules.
The intensity and timbre of sound was seen as varied and a consequence of the varying kampasantana-samskara (vibrations) of air molecules.
Sound are defined as waves and and there are two modes of waves according to the VS:
1. Traverse
2. Longitudanal
This is explained in ancient Indian literature on music. Musical pitches(sruti) are caused by momentum and frequency of vibrations. A svara, or tone(note, god is also called a svara in the Shiva Purnana) is said to consist of a sruiti(fundamental tone) and anuranana(harmonics) Note, while it defines anuranana as harmonics, the root anu means particles, however as this is defined as a wave and it is already understood that particle and waves dual, therefore it could also mean harmonics of wavicles.
The relationship between svara and sruti, that is momentum and frequency of vibrations and tone, can be understood as parinama(nodal change), vyanjana(manifestation) jativyaktyoriva tadatmyam (genus and species), vivartana(reflection) and karyakaranabhava(cause and effect)
An example is given of a wave on the surface of water. When a disturbance is created(dropping a pebble for instance) it creates a wave, which creates another equal wave with the same motion and this creates another equal and this progression continues towards the end. This is very similar to Huyghen's Principle, which says that each point on a wave front are independent sources, which produce more wave fronts, called wavelets at the same velocity as the propogation wave.
According to VS, sound is the highest quality of the fourth state of matter(ether or akasha) The ether itself has 5 states. It would appear it is referring to the state of plasma. As it explains the first state of ether arises due to high vibrations of sound. It says that matter has a sound aspect, and when a vibration is caused it generates an acoustical wave which travels through the air working with it concurrently and resulting in oscillations of paticles in the air and this causes the intermolecular space of the air to rise in vibrations and causes the atoms to eventually work into the first state of the ether.
As we've learnt from the VS earlier the state of solids, liquids and gas were understood in terms of the kinetic energy i.e. vibrations. When a particle is supplied energy from the "heat bearing rays" it disorders and posses the quality of fluidity(kinetic energy) which then rises into a vapor and joins with gasses in the air and it says the first ether is then produced from further vibrations of air, which can only be caused by providing even more energy, therefore the ether is indeed plasma.
Plasma IS produced by heating gas to the point where it starts to release electrons and become ionised; i.e. charged gas is plasma. I think this is interesting, because for the first time a clear link between plasma and the metaphysical ether has been made. Thus we learn from the VS, that beyond plasma there are four other states. The key is vibration in creating those. However, if we continue to increase the vibration of the frequency in this matter indefinitely, eventually it will cause space itself by causing the fabric of space-time to rupture! Now, that is very interesting because space and time are indeed mentioned as the non-physical elements in the VS. And, please do excuse me for my excitement, it EXPLAINS the physics of the quantum vacuum.
Why does emptiness have such an amazing potential of energy? Because, to create space we need an amazing amount of energy, and therefore the viritual quanta that fluctuate in and out of existence, are actually nothing more than particles vibrating at an amazing rate. This is a revelation to me(In fact, recently, I am getting a lot of information on vibrations and it's connection to the universe)
This ultimately brings us to the Vedic concept of the entire universe being the vibration of the life force. The physics in the Vedas is truly astonishing. And it is no wonder why so many quantum physicists, such as Bell, Bohr, Heisenberg, Schrodinger, Einstein adored and amoured it so much. As Einstein said, when referring to how god created the universe in Bhagvad Gita - everything else seemed superflous.
Can you provide some proof that these physicists were really enamored of the Vedas?
Sorry to be so terse... long week and I'm already terribly tired.
Sorry to be so terse... long week and I'm already terribly tired.
There are many famous people, writers and nobel laurettes that hold Vedic literature in high esteem. However, I will only concentrate on the
physicists.
Nicola Tesla
Nicola Tesla is undoubtably one of the greatest physicists and inventors to have lived. Yet, little is known that Nicola Tesla was very strongly influenced by the vedic literature and actually used Sanskrit terminology in one of his unpublished articles. It is very likely his theory of free energy and wireless transmission of electricity was influenced by the vedic teachings:
There manifests itself in the fully developed being , Man, a desire mysterious, inscrutable and irresistible: to imitate nature, to create, to work himself the wonders he perceives.... Long ago he recognized that all perceptible matter comes from a primary substance, or tenuity beyond conception, filling all space, the Akasha or luminiferous ether, which is acted upon by the life giving Prana or creative force, calling into existence, in never ending cycles all things and phenomena. The primary substance, thrown into infinitesimal whirls of prodigious velocity, becomes gross matter; the force subsiding, the motion ceases and matter disappears, reverting to the primary substance."
According to Leland Anderson the article was written May 13th, 1907. Anderson also suggested that it was through association with Swami Vivekananda that Tesla may have come into contact with Sanskrit terminology and that John Dobson of the San Francisco Sidewalk Astronomers Association had researched that association.
It is also interesting to note that Tesla tried to show that matter is just potential energy after a discourse with Swami Vivekanada:
Vivekananda met with many of the well known scientists of the time including Lord Kelvin and Nikola Tesla. According to Swami Nikhilananda:
Nikola Tesla, the great scientist who specialized in the field of electricity, was much impressed to hear from the Swami his explanation of the Samkhya cosmogony and the theory of cycles given by the Hindus. He was particularly struck by the resemblance between the Samkhya theory of matter and energy and that of modern physics. The Swami also met in New York Sir William Thompson, afterwards Lord Kelvin, and Professor Helmholtz, two leading representatives of western science. Sarah Bernhardt, the famous French actress had an interview with the Swami and greatly admired his teachings.
In a letter to a friend, dated February 13th, 1896, Swami Vivekananda noted the following:
...Mr. Tesla was charmed to hear about the Vedantic Prana and Akasha and the Kalpas, which according to him are the only theories modern science can entertain.....Mr Tesla thinks he can demonstrate that mathematically that force and matter are reducible to potential energy. I am to go see him next week to get this mathematical demonstration. [10]
Swami Vivekananda was hopeful that Tesla would be able to show that what we call matter is simply potential energy because that would reconcile the teachings of the Vedas with modern science. The Swami realized that "In that case, the Vedantic cosmology [would] be placed on the surest of foundations". The harmony between Vedantic theories and and western science was explained by the following diagram:
Albert Einstein
It is not exactly known just how influenced Einstein was by the vedic literature. But, it is known that Einstein had actually been exposed to the Bhagvad Gita and held it in very high esteem. Remember, the relation between energy, mass and frequency and the relativity of time(we will cover this later) was already understood in the vedic literature and the speed of light was calculated and first mentioned in the 10th century by Sayana. Just before, Nicola Tesla was trying to relate energy and mass. So, Einstein could have indeed learnt it from the Vedas. This is what Einstein had to say:
"When I read the Bhagavad-Gita and reflect about how God created this universe everything else seems so superfluous."
Erwin Schrodinger
Erwin Schrodinger, famous for the physics paradox "schrodinger's cat" and his works on wave theory of matter, the co-founder of quanum theory for which he was awarded the nobel prize for physics was obsessed with the Vedas. In fact he said in his autobiographical essay he explains that his discovery of quantum mechanics was an attempt to give form to central ideas of Vedanta which, in this indirect sense, has played a role in the birth of the subject. In 1925, before proposing theory was complete, Erwin Schrodinger wrote:
"This life of yours which you are living is not merely apiece of this entire existence, but in a certain sense the whole; only this whole is not so constituted that it can be surveyed in one single glance. This, as we know, is what the Brahmins express in that sacred, mystic formula which is yet really so simple and so clear: [tat tvam asi], this is you."
Even the famous Schrondinger cat's paradox was an old Sankhya Vedic paradox that Schrondinger explains in his 1925 essay. In the 5th century a debate was held between the Hindus and Buddhists as to the nature of the universe flux, they said this:
Buddists: The phenomena consist of an infinity of discrete moments following one another almost without intervals.... There is no matter at all, flashes of energy follow one another and produce the illusion of stabilized phenomena. The universe is a staccato movement.
Hindus: The phenomena are nothing but waves or fluctuations standing out upon the background of an eternal, all-pervading undifferentiated Matter with which they are identical. The universe represents a legato movement.
In 1925 Schrõdinger resolved that paradox the way the Vedantists did: he asserted that all consciousness is one. As he wrote:
"But it is quite easy to express the solution in words, thus: the plurality [of viewpoints] that we perceive is only "an appearance; it is not real. Vedantic philosophy, in which this is a fundamental dogma, has sought to clarify it by a number of analogies, one of the most attractive being the many-faceted crystal which, while showing hundreds of little pictures of what is in reality a single existent object, does not really multiply the object."
Here is another quote from his essay:
"... you may suddenly come to see, in a flash, the profound rightness of the basic conviction of Vedanta: ... knowledge, feeling and choice are essentially eternal and unchangeable and numerically one in all men, nay in all sensitive beings."
According to his biographer Walter Moore, there is a clear continuity between Schrodinger's understanding of Vedanta and his research:
Schrodinger became a Vedantist, a Hindu, as a result of his studies in his search for the truth. Schrodinger kept a copy of the Hindu scriptures at his bedside. He read books on Vedas, yoga, and Sankhya philosophy and he reworked them into his own words, and ultimately came to believe them. The Upanishads and the Bhagavadgita were his favourite scriptures.
According to his biographer Moore, ``His system---or that of the Upanishads---is delightful and consistent: the self and the world are one and they are all.
In a famous essay on determinism and free will, he expressed very clearly the sense that consciousness is a unity, arguing that this ``insight is not new... From the early great Upanishads the recognition [Atman = Brahman] (the personal self equals the omnipresent, all-comprehending eternal self) was in Indian thought considered, far from being blasphemous, to represent the quintessence of deepest insight into the happenings of the world. The striving of all the scholars of Vedanta was, after having learnt to pronounce with their lips, really to assimilate in their minds this grandest of all thoughts.''
He considered the idea of pluralization of consciousness and the notion of many souls to be naive. He considered the notion of plurality to be a result of deception ([maya]):
``the same illusion is produced by a gallery of mirrors, and in the same way Gaurisankar and Mt. Everest turned out to be the same peak seen from different valleys.''
Schrodinger wrote a philosophical book later on called,'What is Life?' which also used Vedic ideas. The co-discoverer of the DNA code was very inspired by Schordingers book.
David Bohm
Bohm's contributed on the work on the Manhattan project to devise the nuclear bomb. He contributed a lot of quantum mechanics and relativity theory, discovering the electron phenomena of the Bohm-diffusion. He also became very fascinated with the Vedas and was astounded to as how well his theories on quantum mechanics were consistent with the vedic views. Here is a transcript of a conversation between Bhom and Weber:
Bohm: Well, they say three persons, the Trinity, which are one. Anyway, it is something like a human being, or rather the other way around; that man is the image of God. That implies that there is a total significance. If you say Atman, in Hinduism, something similar is implied.
Weber: Atman and Brahman, seen as identical; the micro- and the macrocosm.
Bohm: Yes, and Atman is from the side of meaning. You would say Atman is more like the meaning. But then what is meant would be Brahman, I suppose; the identity of consciousness and cosmos.
Weber: Looked at from the so-called subjective side it would be Atman. And what is meant is the objective.
Bohm: Meaning in this sense that somasignificant and signasomatic unite the two sides. This claims that the meaning and what is meant are ultimately one, which is the phrase 'Atman equals Brahman' of classical Hindu philosophy.
Weber: It's an identity-thesis claim. To relate this again to what some of the great philosophers of the past have said: somatasignificant and signasomatic - aren't they your way of working out your own creative concepts for what Spinioza meant by mind and body, and what Hegel meant by subject and substance?
Bohm: Yes, this is a way of understanding how these are related, extending the understanding, or extending the meaning.
Weber: It has plagued philosophers through the ages that there are these two ways of apprehending reality. You are proposing that signa [mind] and somatic [body] are somehow the very fabric of everything in the universe and that this gets expressed in appropriate ways at different levels of organization.
Bohm: Yes [meaning is relevance in a knowledge unit for producing the change that results in the emergence of the prime attribute, and the larger context in which it causes change]. and the bridge is the energy that creates the soma and regulates it and so on.
Weber: Let's pursue this idea of the bridge of energy.
Bohm: The energy which is informed with meaning [potential relevance in this circumstance].
...
Weber: Could one put into words the idea of a meaning or a purpose for all this? You once suggested greater clarity of the universe about itself.
Bohm: That could be part of its end. Maybe an end of greater order, greater clarity, an end to create something.
Weber: So that meaning and being become transparently clear to the organism at all levels of itself?
Bohm: That would be part of the end. I don't know how to put the end yet. The end could be said to be love, it could be said to be order, harmony, but the end could also be said to be the process itself.
Weber: Spinoza would have liked that. He said that the universe doesn't have to have a reason, it is, and that's enough. Although you start out from physics, your view seems to be similar to that.
Bohm: Yes, because it's not to say that it has meaning, but that it is its meaning. We are trying to be more clear as to what this meaning is, because then it will have changed our being. [Since this meaning is the only one we have, it is good. Living in harmony with it is good. Living in disharmony with it is evil. [7-27-98 jb]
Weber: You are a physicist, yet so much of this sounds like what a mystic would say: that in the mystical experience there simply is profound and self-evident meaning, without utilitarian overtones. Isn't that what you are saying?
Bohm: Yes,. utility is only a small part of meaning. Utility is a meaning, but its a rather restricted meaning. The question is: Useful for what? It always occurs in some context - without the context we cannot discuss utility.
...
Weber: So concerning the question raised earlier, 'Do we discover or do we create meaning?' it is as if in discovering it we create it or create it in us.
Bohm: Not only that, but we enrich it; we create something which has not been there [but had the potential to be there, if organized properly].
Weber: We add to it.
Bohm: Yes, we are part of it and it is part of us.
Weber: Since any meaning we grasp in it changes its being, this makes us partners in the evolution of the universe.
Bohm: Yes, that's the proposal... p. 449.
...
Weber: Well what does all this imply for the human world? Looking at the universe in this way changes our lives in what way?
Bohm: It's hard to say at first, but it will clearly imply something very different, a different attitude in the sense that we won't give that much primary weight to the external and the mechanistic side - the side of fragmentation and partiality [Slobadan Milosovich, us against them at all costs. They do not matter, because we are different from them and distant from them with no interaction with them - determinism (separate and independent, fractured mentally (not integrated) and fractured socially (projecting out major parts of ourselves on to the "enemy"]. Also it encourages us much more toward a creative attitude, and fundamentally it opens the way to the transformation of the human being because a change of meaning is a change of being. At present we say because of the confused fragmentary meanings we have confused fragmentary being, both individually and socially. Therefore this opens the way to a whole being, in society and in the individual.
...
Weber: To relate it to human psychology and transformation, the key seems to be the Socratic maxim 'Know yourself,' go inward, and also 'Observe'.
Bohm: And also outward. The outward and the inward are one part of one total meaning.
Robert Oppenheimer
Robert Oppenhemier was a very famous nuclear physicist and also called the father of the nuclear bomb, he made many contributions to quantum mechanics and later his work lead to the quantum tunneling effect. He was also smitten by Vedic literature and used a passage from the Bhagvad Gita to describe the first nuclear bomb explosion. He even alluded to the belief that the the nuclear bomb is not the first in human history. Here are some of the things he said and wrote:
"Access to the Vedas is the greatest privilege this century may claim over all previous centuries."
The general notions about human understanding… which are illustrated by discoveries in atomic physics are not in the nature of things wholly unfamiliar, wholly unheard of or new. Even in our own culture they have a history, and in Buddhist and Hindu thought a more considerable and central place. What we shall find [in modern physics] is an exemplification, an encouragement, and a refinement of old wisdom."
He was asked by Christian Century magazine to list 10 books that have shaped his life and philosophy of the world. Two of those he mentioned were vedic texts and a third by T.S elliot(who was also a veda lover) which alluded to a lot of vedic literature.
We therefore learn that a lot of modern quantum physics is based on the Vedas and many scientists and physicists appreciate them. Yet, it is not surprising, because the Vedas indeed are the fountain head of knowledge and we are seeing in this thread just how advanced Vedic physics is and hence why so many scientists resonate with them.
Nicola Tesla
Nicola Tesla is undoubtably one of the greatest physicists and inventors to have lived. Yet, little is known that Nicola Tesla was very strongly influenced by the vedic literature and actually used Sanskrit terminology in one of his unpublished articles. It is very likely his theory of free energy and wireless transmission of electricity was influenced by the vedic teachings:
There manifests itself in the fully developed being , Man, a desire mysterious, inscrutable and irresistible: to imitate nature, to create, to work himself the wonders he perceives.... Long ago he recognized that all perceptible matter comes from a primary substance, or tenuity beyond conception, filling all space, the Akasha or luminiferous ether, which is acted upon by the life giving Prana or creative force, calling into existence, in never ending cycles all things and phenomena. The primary substance, thrown into infinitesimal whirls of prodigious velocity, becomes gross matter; the force subsiding, the motion ceases and matter disappears, reverting to the primary substance."
According to Leland Anderson the article was written May 13th, 1907. Anderson also suggested that it was through association with Swami Vivekananda that Tesla may have come into contact with Sanskrit terminology and that John Dobson of the San Francisco Sidewalk Astronomers Association had researched that association.
It is also interesting to note that Tesla tried to show that matter is just potential energy after a discourse with Swami Vivekanada:
Vivekananda met with many of the well known scientists of the time including Lord Kelvin and Nikola Tesla. According to Swami Nikhilananda:
Nikola Tesla, the great scientist who specialized in the field of electricity, was much impressed to hear from the Swami his explanation of the Samkhya cosmogony and the theory of cycles given by the Hindus. He was particularly struck by the resemblance between the Samkhya theory of matter and energy and that of modern physics. The Swami also met in New York Sir William Thompson, afterwards Lord Kelvin, and Professor Helmholtz, two leading representatives of western science. Sarah Bernhardt, the famous French actress had an interview with the Swami and greatly admired his teachings.
In a letter to a friend, dated February 13th, 1896, Swami Vivekananda noted the following:
...Mr. Tesla was charmed to hear about the Vedantic Prana and Akasha and the Kalpas, which according to him are the only theories modern science can entertain.....Mr Tesla thinks he can demonstrate that mathematically that force and matter are reducible to potential energy. I am to go see him next week to get this mathematical demonstration. [10]
Swami Vivekananda was hopeful that Tesla would be able to show that what we call matter is simply potential energy because that would reconcile the teachings of the Vedas with modern science. The Swami realized that "In that case, the Vedantic cosmology [would] be placed on the surest of foundations". The harmony between Vedantic theories and and western science was explained by the following diagram:
Albert Einstein
It is not exactly known just how influenced Einstein was by the vedic literature. But, it is known that Einstein had actually been exposed to the Bhagvad Gita and held it in very high esteem. Remember, the relation between energy, mass and frequency and the relativity of time(we will cover this later) was already understood in the vedic literature and the speed of light was calculated and first mentioned in the 10th century by Sayana. Just before, Nicola Tesla was trying to relate energy and mass. So, Einstein could have indeed learnt it from the Vedas. This is what Einstein had to say:
"When I read the Bhagavad-Gita and reflect about how God created this universe everything else seems so superfluous."
Erwin Schrodinger
Erwin Schrodinger, famous for the physics paradox "schrodinger's cat" and his works on wave theory of matter, the co-founder of quanum theory for which he was awarded the nobel prize for physics was obsessed with the Vedas. In fact he said in his autobiographical essay he explains that his discovery of quantum mechanics was an attempt to give form to central ideas of Vedanta which, in this indirect sense, has played a role in the birth of the subject. In 1925, before proposing theory was complete, Erwin Schrodinger wrote:
"This life of yours which you are living is not merely apiece of this entire existence, but in a certain sense the whole; only this whole is not so constituted that it can be surveyed in one single glance. This, as we know, is what the Brahmins express in that sacred, mystic formula which is yet really so simple and so clear: [tat tvam asi], this is you."
Even the famous Schrondinger cat's paradox was an old Sankhya Vedic paradox that Schrondinger explains in his 1925 essay. In the 5th century a debate was held between the Hindus and Buddhists as to the nature of the universe flux, they said this:
Buddists: The phenomena consist of an infinity of discrete moments following one another almost without intervals.... There is no matter at all, flashes of energy follow one another and produce the illusion of stabilized phenomena. The universe is a staccato movement.
Hindus: The phenomena are nothing but waves or fluctuations standing out upon the background of an eternal, all-pervading undifferentiated Matter with which they are identical. The universe represents a legato movement.
In 1925 Schrõdinger resolved that paradox the way the Vedantists did: he asserted that all consciousness is one. As he wrote:
"But it is quite easy to express the solution in words, thus: the plurality [of viewpoints] that we perceive is only "an appearance; it is not real. Vedantic philosophy, in which this is a fundamental dogma, has sought to clarify it by a number of analogies, one of the most attractive being the many-faceted crystal which, while showing hundreds of little pictures of what is in reality a single existent object, does not really multiply the object."
Here is another quote from his essay:
"... you may suddenly come to see, in a flash, the profound rightness of the basic conviction of Vedanta: ... knowledge, feeling and choice are essentially eternal and unchangeable and numerically one in all men, nay in all sensitive beings."
According to his biographer Walter Moore, there is a clear continuity between Schrodinger's understanding of Vedanta and his research:
Schrodinger became a Vedantist, a Hindu, as a result of his studies in his search for the truth. Schrodinger kept a copy of the Hindu scriptures at his bedside. He read books on Vedas, yoga, and Sankhya philosophy and he reworked them into his own words, and ultimately came to believe them. The Upanishads and the Bhagavadgita were his favourite scriptures.
According to his biographer Moore, ``His system---or that of the Upanishads---is delightful and consistent: the self and the world are one and they are all.
In a famous essay on determinism and free will, he expressed very clearly the sense that consciousness is a unity, arguing that this ``insight is not new... From the early great Upanishads the recognition [Atman = Brahman] (the personal self equals the omnipresent, all-comprehending eternal self) was in Indian thought considered, far from being blasphemous, to represent the quintessence of deepest insight into the happenings of the world. The striving of all the scholars of Vedanta was, after having learnt to pronounce with their lips, really to assimilate in their minds this grandest of all thoughts.''
He considered the idea of pluralization of consciousness and the notion of many souls to be naive. He considered the notion of plurality to be a result of deception ([maya]):
``the same illusion is produced by a gallery of mirrors, and in the same way Gaurisankar and Mt. Everest turned out to be the same peak seen from different valleys.''
Schrodinger wrote a philosophical book later on called,'What is Life?' which also used Vedic ideas. The co-discoverer of the DNA code was very inspired by Schordingers book.
David Bohm
Bohm's contributed on the work on the Manhattan project to devise the nuclear bomb. He contributed a lot of quantum mechanics and relativity theory, discovering the electron phenomena of the Bohm-diffusion. He also became very fascinated with the Vedas and was astounded to as how well his theories on quantum mechanics were consistent with the vedic views. Here is a transcript of a conversation between Bhom and Weber:
Bohm: Well, they say three persons, the Trinity, which are one. Anyway, it is something like a human being, or rather the other way around; that man is the image of God. That implies that there is a total significance. If you say Atman, in Hinduism, something similar is implied.
Weber: Atman and Brahman, seen as identical; the micro- and the macrocosm.
Bohm: Yes, and Atman is from the side of meaning. You would say Atman is more like the meaning. But then what is meant would be Brahman, I suppose; the identity of consciousness and cosmos.
Weber: Looked at from the so-called subjective side it would be Atman. And what is meant is the objective.
Bohm: Meaning in this sense that somasignificant and signasomatic unite the two sides. This claims that the meaning and what is meant are ultimately one, which is the phrase 'Atman equals Brahman' of classical Hindu philosophy.
Weber: It's an identity-thesis claim. To relate this again to what some of the great philosophers of the past have said: somatasignificant and signasomatic - aren't they your way of working out your own creative concepts for what Spinioza meant by mind and body, and what Hegel meant by subject and substance?
Bohm: Yes, this is a way of understanding how these are related, extending the understanding, or extending the meaning.
Weber: It has plagued philosophers through the ages that there are these two ways of apprehending reality. You are proposing that signa [mind] and somatic [body] are somehow the very fabric of everything in the universe and that this gets expressed in appropriate ways at different levels of organization.
Bohm: Yes [meaning is relevance in a knowledge unit for producing the change that results in the emergence of the prime attribute, and the larger context in which it causes change]. and the bridge is the energy that creates the soma and regulates it and so on.
Weber: Let's pursue this idea of the bridge of energy.
Bohm: The energy which is informed with meaning [potential relevance in this circumstance].
...
Weber: Could one put into words the idea of a meaning or a purpose for all this? You once suggested greater clarity of the universe about itself.
Bohm: That could be part of its end. Maybe an end of greater order, greater clarity, an end to create something.
Weber: So that meaning and being become transparently clear to the organism at all levels of itself?
Bohm: That would be part of the end. I don't know how to put the end yet. The end could be said to be love, it could be said to be order, harmony, but the end could also be said to be the process itself.
Weber: Spinoza would have liked that. He said that the universe doesn't have to have a reason, it is, and that's enough. Although you start out from physics, your view seems to be similar to that.
Bohm: Yes, because it's not to say that it has meaning, but that it is its meaning. We are trying to be more clear as to what this meaning is, because then it will have changed our being. [Since this meaning is the only one we have, it is good. Living in harmony with it is good. Living in disharmony with it is evil. [7-27-98 jb]
Weber: You are a physicist, yet so much of this sounds like what a mystic would say: that in the mystical experience there simply is profound and self-evident meaning, without utilitarian overtones. Isn't that what you are saying?
Bohm: Yes,. utility is only a small part of meaning. Utility is a meaning, but its a rather restricted meaning. The question is: Useful for what? It always occurs in some context - without the context we cannot discuss utility.
...
Weber: So concerning the question raised earlier, 'Do we discover or do we create meaning?' it is as if in discovering it we create it or create it in us.
Bohm: Not only that, but we enrich it; we create something which has not been there [but had the potential to be there, if organized properly].
Weber: We add to it.
Bohm: Yes, we are part of it and it is part of us.
Weber: Since any meaning we grasp in it changes its being, this makes us partners in the evolution of the universe.
Bohm: Yes, that's the proposal... p. 449.
...
Weber: Well what does all this imply for the human world? Looking at the universe in this way changes our lives in what way?
Bohm: It's hard to say at first, but it will clearly imply something very different, a different attitude in the sense that we won't give that much primary weight to the external and the mechanistic side - the side of fragmentation and partiality [Slobadan Milosovich, us against them at all costs. They do not matter, because we are different from them and distant from them with no interaction with them - determinism (separate and independent, fractured mentally (not integrated) and fractured socially (projecting out major parts of ourselves on to the "enemy"]. Also it encourages us much more toward a creative attitude, and fundamentally it opens the way to the transformation of the human being because a change of meaning is a change of being. At present we say because of the confused fragmentary meanings we have confused fragmentary being, both individually and socially. Therefore this opens the way to a whole being, in society and in the individual.
...
Weber: To relate it to human psychology and transformation, the key seems to be the Socratic maxim 'Know yourself,' go inward, and also 'Observe'.
Bohm: And also outward. The outward and the inward are one part of one total meaning.
Robert Oppenheimer
Robert Oppenhemier was a very famous nuclear physicist and also called the father of the nuclear bomb, he made many contributions to quantum mechanics and later his work lead to the quantum tunneling effect. He was also smitten by Vedic literature and used a passage from the Bhagvad Gita to describe the first nuclear bomb explosion. He even alluded to the belief that the the nuclear bomb is not the first in human history. Here are some of the things he said and wrote:
"Access to the Vedas is the greatest privilege this century may claim over all previous centuries."
The general notions about human understanding… which are illustrated by discoveries in atomic physics are not in the nature of things wholly unfamiliar, wholly unheard of or new. Even in our own culture they have a history, and in Buddhist and Hindu thought a more considerable and central place. What we shall find [in modern physics] is an exemplification, an encouragement, and a refinement of old wisdom."
He was asked by Christian Century magazine to list 10 books that have shaped his life and philosophy of the world. Two of those he mentioned were vedic texts and a third by T.S elliot(who was also a veda lover) which alluded to a lot of vedic literature.
We therefore learn that a lot of modern quantum physics is based on the Vedas and many scientists and physicists appreciate them. Yet, it is not surprising, because the Vedas indeed are the fountain head of knowledge and we are seeing in this thread just how advanced Vedic physics is and hence why so many scientists resonate with them.
im looking at a few books written by dr.martin levey(supeeerrrr geniouuuu s
he was a brilliant man that was mezmurized by ancient text
from early arabic and india
you should read up on him
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0
he was a brilliant man that was mezmurized by ancient text
from early arabic and india
you should read up on him
0
0
Uhm, the "it's not exactly known how so-and-so was influenced by the Veda" isn't proof that they were influenced by it. You couldn't prove that
I was influenced by any of the Vedas (though I've read them) in any of my papers.
Reading does not mean influence.
Scientists, when they write papers, do cite their sources. I maintain that if you look at the work of these men, it will (as my own papers show) provide a complete list of who they derive their ideas from. Major sources will be cited and re-cited and mentioned in letters to other people. I think that if you read what these people wrote, that they did not refer to the Vedas or to any Hindus in specific. That would be as unthinkable as my never mentioning Clifford Geertz (a major influence in my papers.)
Reading does not mean influence.
Scientists, when they write papers, do cite their sources. I maintain that if you look at the work of these men, it will (as my own papers show) provide a complete list of who they derive their ideas from. Major sources will be cited and re-cited and mentioned in letters to other people. I think that if you read what these people wrote, that they did not refer to the Vedas or to any Hindus in specific. That would be as unthinkable as my never mentioning Clifford Geertz (a major influence in my papers.)
I think that if you read what these people wrote, that they did not refer to the Vedas or to any Hindus in specific.
Then you should read again, because it is clearly mentioned how influenced they were. Nicola Tesla, in an unpublished article used Sanskrit terminology and concepts to explain his theories of universal energy. Schrodinger, explicitly stated that his theories were to give form to the Vedic ideas and explained his most famous problem was from Vedas, And David Bhom discusses the Brahman and the relationship between the Atman. They not only just read the "Vedas" they meditated on them.
Again, modern quantum mechanics is nothing more than a jazzed up version of the vedic model of the universe. Otherwise it is all the same.
[edit on 24-2-2005 by Indigo_Child]
The nature of space and time:
The science of space, time are amongst the highest science of the Vedas, and indeed space, time and consciousness, also called metaphysics, is what modern scientists are grappling with today. This is 21st century science and the ball was set into motion by Einstein's theory of relativity. Relativites main postulates are that space and time are relative to the observer and energy and mass are equivalent and most cutting edge quantum physics has devised the model of observer dependent space-time.
Slowly, we are coming towards the vedic model of the universe, though our understanding is still premature. The Vedic Indians already had figured it all out thousands of years before Einstein and modern quantum physicists. The argument between Schrodinger and Heisenberg had already taken place between the Buddhists and Hindus 1500 years ago. The particle-wave duality and the equivalence of energy and matter was already postulated in the Vaiseshikla sutra near 3000 years ago and all this knowledge is as ancient as the Vedas which could be more than 10,000 years old.
We will now cover space and timeseparately according to the vedic model. Space, time and mind are considered as non-physical elements and seen as energies that are composed of particles. The nature of space, time and mind is fractal, like a molecule of DNA, that is that sub-set contains the entire set. This is surmised in this passage from the yoga sutra: the entire universe exists in one subatomic particle and the three worlds exist in one strand of hair.
Space:
There is space and there is Prakriti Prakriti is unmanifest infinite space. While, space, is the manifest state of Prakriti and is a form of energy, it is calleed akasha or ether. As we've seen earlier akasha exists in 5 states of energy and the first is plasma and beyond the plasma state exists space-energy. So Space is not a void, but rather a form of energy. It is composed of constituent particles in a constant state of flux. Further, space is not flat, rather it is curved and this is because of the high state of space energy and it's universal gravitational field. Yes, space would thus have a univeral gravitational field, because it's a high concentration of energy at a single point an because of the curved nature of space. Matter is not the cause of gravity, rather gravity is an effect of space. We learn this in the Shiva Purna where it tells us that the ethers shape Prakriti into a sphere. Space is defined as a frame in which matter exists in the Vaiseshika Sutra, while the Srimad Bhagvatam define space as a bubble in which matter exists. Ultimately, it is called "maya" an illusion.
Time:
Time is called "samay" and is also a form of energy, one of the non physical elements, and the cause of all material nature. The factor of time affects all people in different ways. A difficult concept this maybe for some to grasp, but the past, present and the future are simply illusory and they all exist in one moment in the absolute reality of Mahavishnu. The time aspect of this universe(there are infinite universes) is seen as both relative to the observer and absolute to Brahmas reality - the universal consciousness. The vedic time cycles are measured relative to Brahma. His time is as follows:
One day of Brahma: 4.32 billion years
One day and night of Brahma: 8.6 billion years
One life of Brahma: 133 trillion years
(According to 5th century Indians we are in the 51st year of Brahamas life, so the universe is some 600 billion years old. That is many times the current estimate, but I hope one day I'll be here confirming that too)
The higher universes/worlds exist in a state of high energy and time is slower there. In the Purans it speaks of humans being that have gone to the higher universes/world for minutes and seconds and experienced time-dilation effects of thousands and millions of years.
One such account is given in the Srimad Bhagvatam Purana: A king of an submarine(underwater) civilization, maharishi Kakudmi and his Revati were a highly advanced race with great technology. Kakudmi went on his spaceship to the Brahama's world/universe.
"O Maharaja Pariksit, subduer of enemies, Revata constructed a kingdom known as Kusasthali in the depths of the ocean. There he lived and ruled such tracts of land as Anarta, etc. He had one hundred very nice sons, of whom the eldest was Kakudmi. Taking his own daughter, Revati, Kakudmi went to Lord Brahma in Brahmaloka, which is transcendental to the three modes of material nature, and inquired about a husband for her. When Kakudmi arrived there, Lord Brahma was engaged in hearing musical performances by the Gandharvas and had not a moment to talk to him. Therefore Kakudmi waited, and at the end of the musical performances he offered his obeisances to Lord Brahma and thus submitted his long standing desire. After hearing his words, Lord Brahma, who is most powerful, laughed loudly and said to Kakudmi, 'O King, all those whom you may have decided within the core of your heart to accept as your son-in-law have passed away in the course of time. Twenty-seven catur-yugas have already passed. Those upon whom you may have already decided are now gone, and so are their sons, grandsons and other descendants. You cannot even hear about their names.' (SB 9.3.28-32)
A catur-yuga = 4,320,000 years
27 catur yuga = 116,640,000
One second of Brahma = 100,000
Therefore Kakudmi was waiting for 19 min and 26 seconds and 116,640,000 years had elapsed on Earth.
Experts from Vedic texts on time:
Srimad Bhagvatam Purana:
"The time factor, who causes the transformation of the various material manifestations, is another feature of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Anyone who does not know that time is the same Supreme Personality is afraid of the time factor." (SB 3.29.37)
"All these are considered the qualified Brahman. The mixing element, which is known as time, is counted as the twenty-fifth element." (SB 3.26.15)
"The influence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead is felt in the time factor, which causes fear of death due to the false ego of the deluded soul who has contacted material nature." (SB 3.26.16)
"My dear mother, O daughter of Svayambhuva Manu, the time factor, as I have explained, is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, from whom the creation begins as a result of the agitation of the neutral, unmanifested nature." (SB 3.26.17)
"By exhibiting His potencies, the Supreme Personality of Godhead adjusts all these different elements, keeping Himself within as the Supersoul and without as time." (SB 3.26.18)
"The Supreme Personality of Godhead, in His feature of eternal time, is present in the material world and is neutral towards everyone. No one is His ally, and no one is His enemy. Within the jurisdiction of the time element, everyone enjoys or suffers the result of his own karma, or fruitive activities. As, when the wind blows, small particles of dust fly in the air, so, according to one's particular karma, one suffers or enjoys material life." (SB 4.11.20)"
Conclusion: This is a highly advanced understanding of space and time. We've seen that the nature of space and time as an energy, their relativity and the effects of time-dilation. Later on, we will also cover consciousness, which according to the Vedas is the highest science.
The science of space, time are amongst the highest science of the Vedas, and indeed space, time and consciousness, also called metaphysics, is what modern scientists are grappling with today. This is 21st century science and the ball was set into motion by Einstein's theory of relativity. Relativites main postulates are that space and time are relative to the observer and energy and mass are equivalent and most cutting edge quantum physics has devised the model of observer dependent space-time.
Slowly, we are coming towards the vedic model of the universe, though our understanding is still premature. The Vedic Indians already had figured it all out thousands of years before Einstein and modern quantum physicists. The argument between Schrodinger and Heisenberg had already taken place between the Buddhists and Hindus 1500 years ago. The particle-wave duality and the equivalence of energy and matter was already postulated in the Vaiseshikla sutra near 3000 years ago and all this knowledge is as ancient as the Vedas which could be more than 10,000 years old.
We will now cover space and timeseparately according to the vedic model. Space, time and mind are considered as non-physical elements and seen as energies that are composed of particles. The nature of space, time and mind is fractal, like a molecule of DNA, that is that sub-set contains the entire set. This is surmised in this passage from the yoga sutra: the entire universe exists in one subatomic particle and the three worlds exist in one strand of hair.
Space:
There is space and there is Prakriti Prakriti is unmanifest infinite space. While, space, is the manifest state of Prakriti and is a form of energy, it is calleed akasha or ether. As we've seen earlier akasha exists in 5 states of energy and the first is plasma and beyond the plasma state exists space-energy. So Space is not a void, but rather a form of energy. It is composed of constituent particles in a constant state of flux. Further, space is not flat, rather it is curved and this is because of the high state of space energy and it's universal gravitational field. Yes, space would thus have a univeral gravitational field, because it's a high concentration of energy at a single point an because of the curved nature of space. Matter is not the cause of gravity, rather gravity is an effect of space. We learn this in the Shiva Purna where it tells us that the ethers shape Prakriti into a sphere. Space is defined as a frame in which matter exists in the Vaiseshika Sutra, while the Srimad Bhagvatam define space as a bubble in which matter exists. Ultimately, it is called "maya" an illusion.
Time:
Time is called "samay" and is also a form of energy, one of the non physical elements, and the cause of all material nature. The factor of time affects all people in different ways. A difficult concept this maybe for some to grasp, but the past, present and the future are simply illusory and they all exist in one moment in the absolute reality of Mahavishnu. The time aspect of this universe(there are infinite universes) is seen as both relative to the observer and absolute to Brahmas reality - the universal consciousness. The vedic time cycles are measured relative to Brahma. His time is as follows:
One day of Brahma: 4.32 billion years
One day and night of Brahma: 8.6 billion years
One life of Brahma: 133 trillion years
(According to 5th century Indians we are in the 51st year of Brahamas life, so the universe is some 600 billion years old. That is many times the current estimate, but I hope one day I'll be here confirming that too)
The higher universes/worlds exist in a state of high energy and time is slower there. In the Purans it speaks of humans being that have gone to the higher universes/world for minutes and seconds and experienced time-dilation effects of thousands and millions of years.
One such account is given in the Srimad Bhagvatam Purana: A king of an submarine(underwater) civilization, maharishi Kakudmi and his Revati were a highly advanced race with great technology. Kakudmi went on his spaceship to the Brahama's world/universe.
"O Maharaja Pariksit, subduer of enemies, Revata constructed a kingdom known as Kusasthali in the depths of the ocean. There he lived and ruled such tracts of land as Anarta, etc. He had one hundred very nice sons, of whom the eldest was Kakudmi. Taking his own daughter, Revati, Kakudmi went to Lord Brahma in Brahmaloka, which is transcendental to the three modes of material nature, and inquired about a husband for her. When Kakudmi arrived there, Lord Brahma was engaged in hearing musical performances by the Gandharvas and had not a moment to talk to him. Therefore Kakudmi waited, and at the end of the musical performances he offered his obeisances to Lord Brahma and thus submitted his long standing desire. After hearing his words, Lord Brahma, who is most powerful, laughed loudly and said to Kakudmi, 'O King, all those whom you may have decided within the core of your heart to accept as your son-in-law have passed away in the course of time. Twenty-seven catur-yugas have already passed. Those upon whom you may have already decided are now gone, and so are their sons, grandsons and other descendants. You cannot even hear about their names.' (SB 9.3.28-32)
A catur-yuga = 4,320,000 years
27 catur yuga = 116,640,000
One second of Brahma = 100,000
Therefore Kakudmi was waiting for 19 min and 26 seconds and 116,640,000 years had elapsed on Earth.
Experts from Vedic texts on time:
Srimad Bhagvatam Purana:
"The time factor, who causes the transformation of the various material manifestations, is another feature of the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Anyone who does not know that time is the same Supreme Personality is afraid of the time factor." (SB 3.29.37)
"All these are considered the qualified Brahman. The mixing element, which is known as time, is counted as the twenty-fifth element." (SB 3.26.15)
"The influence of the Supreme Personality of Godhead is felt in the time factor, which causes fear of death due to the false ego of the deluded soul who has contacted material nature." (SB 3.26.16)
"My dear mother, O daughter of Svayambhuva Manu, the time factor, as I have explained, is the Supreme Personality of Godhead, from whom the creation begins as a result of the agitation of the neutral, unmanifested nature." (SB 3.26.17)
"By exhibiting His potencies, the Supreme Personality of Godhead adjusts all these different elements, keeping Himself within as the Supersoul and without as time." (SB 3.26.18)
"The Supreme Personality of Godhead, in His feature of eternal time, is present in the material world and is neutral towards everyone. No one is His ally, and no one is His enemy. Within the jurisdiction of the time element, everyone enjoys or suffers the result of his own karma, or fruitive activities. As, when the wind blows, small particles of dust fly in the air, so, according to one's particular karma, one suffers or enjoys material life." (SB 4.11.20)"
Conclusion: This is a highly advanced understanding of space and time. We've seen that the nature of space and time as an energy, their relativity and the effects of time-dilation. Later on, we will also cover consciousness, which according to the Vedas is the highest science.
Originally posted by Indigo_Child
I think that if you read what these people wrote, that they did not refer to the Vedas or to any Hindus in specific.
Then you should read again, because it is clearly mentioned how influenced they were. Nicola Tesla, in an unpublished article used Sanskrit terminology and concepts to explain his theories of universal energy. Schrodinger, explicitly stated that his theories were to give form to the Vedic ideas and explained his most famous problem was from Vedas, And David Bhom discusses the Brahman and the relationship between the Atman. They not only just read the "Vedas" they meditated on them.
Again, modern quantum mechanics is nothing more than a jazzed up version of the vedic model of the universe. Otherwise it is all the same.
[edit on 24-2-2005 by Indigo_Child]
WHICH "unpublished article" by Tesla (and if it's unpublished, what's its provenance?)
I've read the Bohm. The citation comes from a book by Renee Weber www.ourworldharmony.com...
..and basically talks about states of awareness. In the discourse, he also mentions the Christian trinity along with many other things to make the analogy. However, it doesn't say which of these analogies is foundational to his theories.
Bohm: We don't know how far the self-awareness would go, but if you were religious, you would believe it is a sense of God, or as something that would be totally self-aware. p. 444-445.
Weber: You mean, as a whole. The question is: Is there a significance to the holomovement as a whole?
Bohm: Yes, that is a question of what proposal we want to explore. People have, in effect, been exploring notions of that kind in religions. One view is to say that the significance is similar to ourselves in a sense that Christians would say that God is a person.
Weber: Or, anyhow, a being.
Bohm: Well, they say three persons, the Trinity, which are one. Anyway, it is something like a human being, or rather the other way around; that man is the image of God. That implies that there is a total significance. If you say Atman, in Hinduism, something similar is implied.
Weber: Atman and Brahman, seen as identical; the micro- and the macrocosm.
Bohm: Yes, and Atman is from the side of meaning. You would say Atman is more like the meaning. But then what is meant would be Brahman, I suppose; the identity of consciousness and cosmos.
Other articles say he was more influenced by Buddhism, which, frankly I can accept from reading more of the material:
www.orientalthane.com...
But I don't doubt he read and was influenced to some degree in his philosophical thinking by the Vedas. However, I strongly doubt that he derived his cosomolgy from the Vedas, since he directly cites Heisenberg and many other sources who did not read the Vedas in writing his scholarly texts.
WHICH "unpublished article" by Tesla (and if it's unpublished, what's its provenance?)
I've excerpted it above and it is noted down by a early 20th century scholar. And Nicola Tesla's interactions with Swami Vivekanada are also noted.
But I don't doubt he read and was influenced to some degree in his philosophical thinking by the Vedas. However, I strongly doubt that he derived his cosomolgy from the Vedas, since he directly cites Heisenberg and many other sources who did not read the Vedas in writing his scholarly texts.
It cannot be said where Bhom derived his knowledge from. No one one can say where anybody derives their knowledge from. What is known, however, he was very influenced by the Vedas and he also co-authored a book on metaphysics with a famous Indian Swami, "the Limits of Thought" and he used a lot of vedic concepts and terminology to explain this theories in his books.
www.seekerbooks.com...
www.vision.net.au...
Further more, Buddhism is just another off-shoot of the Vedas, as is Sikhism. It is we who create the seperations, but there can be no separation in knowledge, it belongs to all. It does not matter whether Bohm read it from the Vedas and derived it -(Schrodinger did that) or proposed it and then found in the Vedas. What matters, as far as we are concered, is that it is in the Vedas.
In fact even superstring theory has a vedic and mystical origin, as it could not be possible without an Indian mathematician's, Ramunjan's modular functions in mathematics, who attributed his knowledge to a supernatural source. The Vedas are the cradle of the sciences and the modern age owes a lot to them.
Why so many resonate with the Vedas, is simply because they are knowledge and anyone who truly has a desire for knowledge, will gravitate towards them.
[edit on 25-2-2005 by Indigo_Child]
Indigo Child, I find the information you have posted facinating. I am familiar with some of the ideas but most of them are entirley new to me. I have
long belived that the vedic world view far surpasses that of modern science but i was unaware that these manuals still existed and have been
translated. I would like to ask you where these manuals exist and how to get a hold of them.
Peace.
Peace.
Will note the other stuff at another time. I think Ill break the sections up and talk about them in different threads.
Beg to differ with you, here, but speaking a someone who has done a number of papers, you most certainly can tell where an academic derives his knowledge from.
scholar.google.com...
He cites Einstein, Podolsky, and Rosen.
prola.aps.org...
Here's his own article on "A new theory of the relationship of mind and matter" from PHILOSOPHICAL PSYCHOLOGY:
scholar.google.com...:fL79zz54AgwJ:members.aol.com/Mszlazak/BOHM.html+%22david+bohm%22
He clearly states his sources:
BELL, J.S. (1966) On the problem of hidden variables in quantum theory, Reviews of Modern Physics, 38, p. 447.
BOHM, D. (1952) A suggested interpretation of the quantum theory in terms of hidden variables, Physical Review, 85, pp. 166-189.
BOHM, D. (1980) Wholeness and the Implicate Order (London, Routledge Kegan Paul).
BOHM, D. (1984) Causality, and Chance in Modern Physics, new edn with new preface (London, Routledge & Kegan Paul).
BOHM, D. & HILEY, B.J. (1975) On the intuitive understanding of Nonlocality as implied by the quantum theory, Foundations of Physics, 5, pp. 93-109.
BOHM, D. & HILEY, B.J. (1987) An ontological basis for the quantum theory, Physics Reports, 144, pp. 323-348.
BOHR, N. (1934) Atomic Theory and the Description of Nature (Cambridge, Cambridge University Press).
BOHR, N. (1958) Atomic Theory and Human Knowledge (New York, Wiley).
COTTINGHAM, J. (1986) Descartes (Oxford, Basil Blackwell).
HAUGELAND, J. (Ed.) (1981) Mind Design: philosophy, psychology
Jiddu Krishnamurti did have some impact on him, but he did not meet Krishnamurti until long after he had begun working on quantum theory. His papers don't cite the man; they cite Einstein and Bohr and the Usual Suspects.
Originally posted by Indigo_Child
But I don't doubt he read and was influenced to some degree in his philosophical thinking by the Vedas. However, I strongly doubt that he derived his cosomolgy from the Vedas, since he directly cites Heisenberg and many other sources who did not read the Vedas in writing his scholarly texts.
It cannot be said where Bhom derived his knowledge from. No one one can say where anybody derives their knowledge from.
Beg to differ with you, here, but speaking a someone who has done a number of papers, you most certainly can tell where an academic derives his knowledge from.
scholar.google.com...
He cites Einstein, Podolsky, and Rosen.
prola.aps.org...
Here's his own article on "A new theory of the relationship of mind and matter" from PHILOSOPHICAL PSYCHOLOGY:
scholar.google.com...:fL79zz54AgwJ:members.aol.com/Mszlazak/BOHM.html+%22david+bohm%22
He clearly states his sources:
BELL, J.S. (1966) On the problem of hidden variables in quantum theory, Reviews of Modern Physics, 38, p. 447.
BOHM, D. (1952) A suggested interpretation of the quantum theory in terms of hidden variables, Physical Review, 85, pp. 166-189.
BOHM, D. (1980) Wholeness and the Implicate Order (London, Routledge Kegan Paul).
BOHM, D. (1984) Causality, and Chance in Modern Physics, new edn with new preface (London, Routledge & Kegan Paul).
BOHM, D. & HILEY, B.J. (1975) On the intuitive understanding of Nonlocality as implied by the quantum theory, Foundations of Physics, 5, pp. 93-109.
BOHM, D. & HILEY, B.J. (1987) An ontological basis for the quantum theory, Physics Reports, 144, pp. 323-348.
BOHR, N. (1934) Atomic Theory and the Description of Nature (Cambridge, Cambridge University Press).
BOHR, N. (1958) Atomic Theory and Human Knowledge (New York, Wiley).
COTTINGHAM, J. (1986) Descartes (Oxford, Basil Blackwell).
HAUGELAND, J. (Ed.) (1981) Mind Design: philosophy, psychology
Jiddu Krishnamurti did have some impact on him, but he did not meet Krishnamurti until long after he had begun working on quantum theory. His papers don't cite the man; they cite Einstein and Bohr and the Usual Suspects.
Beg to differ with you, here, but speaking a someone who has done a number of papers, you most certainly can tell where an academic derives his knowledge from.
And I differ with you. I actually knew that Bohm met Krishnamurti after, and the reason he was so attracted to Krishnamurti, who was a vedic teacher mind you, because it was too similar to his own theories and it completed them for him. Now, the point I made, that it cannot be said where anyone gets their knowledge from, was a philosophical point. Not everyone will watch the usual suspects and be inspired to write philosophy. Not everyone who has an apple fall on their head - will write the laws of gravitation. So it is true, nobody knows where knowledge comes from.
The greatest scientists themselves don't know where their knowledge came from - it just came. In fact the Vedas themselves were written from a supernatural source, from Rishis's in meditation. This maybe the same source where all scientists get their knowledge from and when they see the same in the Vedas, they a sense of knowingness about the Vedas.
[edit on 26-2-2005 by Indigo_Child]
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