Why don’t Jews Believe Jesus was a Messiah?? Dr. Brown vs. Rabbi Frietag

a reply to: ketsuko

Because that is kinda, well precisely the primary requirement to be a messiah...

a reply to: Deetermined

Then Jesus cannot be a new covenant...


Because the predicted messiah will be known by the fact all the world inherently knows gods laws..



It is one of the major contricdictions in Messianic Judaism/Christianity..

The Christians point to the verse mentioning a new covenant and claim “look see there is the prediction of Jesus changing the laws!!”


Except the next verse lays out that new covenant completely.. saying that every Be on earth would inherently know gods laws. Without being taught..

AKA not jesus...


It is sad so few people have actually researched the dogmas they claim to base their lives around...

originally posted by: JoshuaCox

Because the predicted messiah will be known by the fact all the world inherently knows gods laws..

That's right.

The only thing missing is "how long" after the messiah comes does everyone begin to "recognize" gods laws..

Do you think its "instantly" ?

Is it a couple years, decades, centuries, millennia?

According to the bible it takes 3 days for everyone to understand.

And 1 day of the LORD is 1000 years.

That means by the end of 3000 years from the birth of the Messiah, everyone will be up to speed.

When Jesus came, only a few could understand his word.

But, as the centuries passed, the Church grew in size, and the gospel began to be preached all over the world.

It takes time, in human terms.

We still have a thousand years to go, for all to understand.

a reply to: Akragon
a reply to: Seede

Fortunately it doesn't matter if its the same spirit mentioned in the NT or not... Just because its mentioned in a passage does not make it part of a triune god Nor does it make it equal to the other parts of said unknown triune god Jesus and the devil are aso mentioned in the same passage... Are they equal as well? Again, no matter how hard you try, you can't shoehorn a trinity into a place its not found

Can't really understand your logic.

Seems like apples and oranges. Not talking about Jesus and the Devil in same passage. Jesus is not in both OT and NT such as Holy Spirit is. But if Jesus were in both the OT and NT then yes He most likely would be the same entity. Also if the devil were in the OT and NT then yes he/it would most likely be the same entity. Why then would not the Holy Spirit be likewise the same entity in both the OT and NT? Thanks for the confusion.

a reply to: AMPTAH

No..

It says that the covenant is how you will know the person is the real messiah..

It is one the litmus tests for the messiah...

Aka the Bible tells the Jews not to believe anyone who hasn’t yet done that.

It says that anyone who claims to be a messiah without doing that first is lying.


Or at least that is what the Rabbi in the video says is the continuing Jewish interpretation.

According to the Rabbi the Jewish interpretation was that Jesus was an Orthodox Jew only teaching people to be righteous, who had his teachings perverted 100 years after his death by Paul. Who never even met Jesus.

a reply to: JoshuaCox

Then Jesus cannot be a new covenant...

Jesus said his blood is the new covenant, that was shed so that all who were not capable of keeping the law perfectly (which was/is everyone), would still be forgiven for their sins for all time.

Matthew 26:27-29

27 Then he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29 I tell you, I will not drink from this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.”

a reply to: JoshuaCox

According to the Rabbi the Jewish interpretation was that Jesus was an Orthodox Jew only teaching people to be righteous, who had his teachings perverted 100 years after his death by Paul. Who never even met Jesus.

It's precisely because of this kind of thinking that two thirds of the Jews will be cut off, as told in Zechariah 13.

originally posted by: dfnj2015
a reply to: JoshuaCox

Jews believe in only one true God. Believing Jesus is God is idol worship.

If one doesn't believe in Jesus as the Son of God / part of the Holy Trinity then that path leads to hell.

originally posted by: choos
a reply to: JoshuaCox

still dont understand why im supposed to believe in texts written by man that cant be corroborated?

believe in god? good for you, believe in it, but why follow the words of a stranger that wrote a book saying its the words of your god?

It was written by many "strangers" and it's words hold true today, that's why I believe it. Hundreds of prophecies are currently fulfilled today, even though the book was written a couple thousand years ago.

a reply to: JoshuaCox

In answer to the OP main question is that the Jewish people had always believed that their savior would come as a great king / warrior. So when Jesus was poor in a lowly stable they did not recognize Him as the one that had been foretold and so they ignored His teachings and examples. They are waiting for Him to come the first time, whereas the christians of today believe in Jesus' birth, death, and ressurection so we are looking for Him to come the second time, hence the "second coming".

originally posted by: TruthJava

originally posted by: dfnj2015
a reply to: JoshuaCox

Jews believe in only one true God. Believing Jesus is God is idol worship.

If one doesn't believe in Jesus as the Son of God / part of the Holy Trinity then that path leads to hell.

So... IF someone doesn't believe in a trinity, which isn't even a concept in the bible...

they go to hell

Gotcha..

I guess Jesus is in hell... because he didn't recognize a trinity

what a joke... lol

a reply to: Deetermined

It’s precisely because of that that Christianity is about as credible as Mormonism..


Because it is almost entirely based on the story of one guy who had “visions”.. there is a very valid argument Paul stole the church from James , Jesus's brother..


And about 90% of Christian doctrine is basically “paulstianity”.



Jesus didn’t want a different church..


Paul’s version was just oh so convienent as is sure was easier to recruit than James still requiring Jewish law to be followed..

No body wants to be circumcised as an adult..

a reply to: JoshuaCox

Your lack of Bible knowledge is showing again. The Bible is made up of prophecy from multiple prophets that speak of the coming of Jesus, who he was, and why he came. I already posted Isaiah 53 for you. Maybe you should read John 10 if you don't like Paul. There isn't anything Paul taught that John didn't back up in scripture.

a reply to: Akragon

I guess Jesus is in hell... because he didn't recognize a trinity

Jesus recognized it, but you don't because you don't have the Holy Spirit to bear witness of who God/Jesus is.

1 John 5:7-12

7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son.

10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

Deuteronomy 6:4

4 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord:

Mark 12:29

29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

a reply to: Akragon

You can thank Paul for all the trinity stuff..

I heard a lecture where a Rabbi payed out the Jewish opinion of jesus..

It basically stated that they believed Jesus was a devout jew who challenged Rome and was executed. That those who believed he would be resurrected started a sect of Judaism around his story, then had Paul hijack Christianity after he started changing rules to let more people join.

a reply to: Deetermined

Jesus recognized it, but you don't because you don't have the Holy Spirit to bear witness of who God/Jesus is.

No im afraid he didn't... nor did any of his followers or apostles

1 John 5:7 is a well known addition to the text

And just so you know, the Shema does not say, O Heae ye Israel, the lord is three in one... nice try though

a reply to: Akragon

Sorry, your unsubstantiated claims aren't cutting it. Nice try though.

originally posted by: JoshuaCox
a reply to: Akragon

You can thank Paul for all the trinity stuff..

I heard a lecture where a Rabbi payed out the Jewish opinion of jesus..

It basically stated that they believed Jesus was a devout jew who challenged Rome and was executed. That those who believed he would be resurrected started a sect of Judaism around his story, then had Paul hijack Christianity after he started changing rules to let more people join.

Are you attacking Paul just because he is inconvenient to your personal belief's or do you have some divine source of information and claim yourself a prophet.

No, then this must be true mustn't it.

You are therefore a heretic and not just against Christianity in the west but even against the very oldest branch of Christianity which began as a fully Jewish church.
en.wikipedia.org...

Why do I point to the Church of Antioch - the Syriac Orthodoxy, well because you may like to know it remained fully independent until very recently indeed and it's tradition's going right back to the founding of the church itself by Jesus himself are unbroken and have changed very little over that time, they are also so similar to the Catholic tradition that half of the church joined the catholic church after a schism split it.

You want to argue history but that need's you to be correct and Sorry but you are NOT correct.

Once again Modern Jewish tradition's are actually very different to those practiced in Pre AD 59 Judea, in fact they mostly stem from hundreds of years after the expulsion and indeed only from the European branch which has become dominant due to numbers and wealth.

The Ethiopian Jewry practiced until extremely recent the ancient and TRUE traditions of the Jewish people (the Ethiopian Jewry are also the same that schism-ed with some accepting Jesus and founding the Ethiopian Orthodox Church.

The Lemba Tribe whom continued migration since the time of the Expulsion until they had reached south Africa are there direct relatives and in fact may have been more Jewish in origin even than the Ethiopian branch but are today Christian's, the Jewish tribes in Arabia whom presumably also practiced the ancient tradition's were Wiped out by Muhammad and the other Jew's split into the Sephardic/Sephardi and the Ashkenazi/Ashkenazim with the Ashkenazi (Yiddish - My own Jewish ancestry direct maternal line though my family lost there identity many generations back and are only just piecing parts of it together, turn's out my mothers fathers family were also of German Jewish descent but were Anglican while my mothers mother was Catholic and her mother Jewish) having probable link's to the Persian Jewry and eventually becoming the dominant group.

I point this out to explain I am not an anti Semite, I can't be because it would be ridiculous of me when I look more Jewish than many Jews and probably have more Jewish ancestry than many Jews in modern day Israel have.

I would severely suggest before you start making claim's about the religion you learn the difference between modern, protestant and reformist Christianity and how it diverged from traditional Christianity (not just Catholicism which was indeed corrupt at that time and let's not get into the kiddy fiddlers hiding among the priest class of all the faith's not just Christian's), indeed how it diverged from ALL original branches of Christianity including the very first church - that of Antioch.

a reply to: TruthJava

And when He comes the second time, He will arrive as the warrior the Jews are expecting, but it will be too late for many because they will be deceived by the Beast who comes first who will set himself up as the earthly king the Jews expect.

a reply to: JoshuaCox

Jesus specifically said that he didn't come to change the laws and people who really understand Christianity know that the laws haven't been changed but they are required to grow in Christ in to become more christ-like and to try to obey the laws.

Jaden