a reply to: JoshuaCox
To them, the Bible says nothing about a “son of god” , it says nothing about miracles or resurrection, nor anything about belief in a divine
figure who would rescue the worlds souls from damnation, Nothing about belief in his son becoming the primary concern. They were expecting, One who
would deliver them from bondage, and after jesus died. They were stil in bondage....
The debate was not really presented in a correct manner. My opinion of course.
To understand Jewish doctrines [movements] is to understand the doctrine of Jesus compared to the doctrines of the Jewish people that were Sadducees,
Pharisees and Essenes. The Sadducees came out of Hellenistic influence of Judaic philosophy which denied any sort of afterlife whatsoever. In that
we can understand that a messiah,in their doctrine, was nothing but a mortal man who would rule this world in mortal configuration. These people were
the aristocrats and appointed priests who ruled the nation Israel with no regard of oral Torah. Their doctrine was that what you see now is all you
will ever see. They had little or no regard for the prophets who taught otherwise and were basically converts of both the Greek and Roman cultures.
This was the ruling class as Jesus came upon the scene.
The Pharisees believed that The Most High EL [God of Jesus] gave both the oral and written Torah and that this was to be taught to the people by
schooled men called rabbis. Both movements believed in blood sacrifice and the law giver named Moses. The Pharisees believed in a collective
resurrection at the last day where all Jews would be reunited with their earthly bodies which were returned to the earth and their spirits which were
contained in Sheol. The righteous Jew would then live a long and happy life and then die once again.
All unrighteous spirits would be then be carried to a compartment in Sheol and given one year in purgatory to cleanse the spirit. that spirit would
then attend the terrestrial Gan Eden to re indoctrinate its errors and then pass into the celestial Gan Eden to reside in total bliss as a bodiless
soul. The soul is now prepared for reincarnation if the choice is made to do so. This second chance is not needed for the soul that is righteous in
its physical life. There are degrees of bliss and rewards in the Heavenly Gan Eden and the purpose of a reincarnation is to attain a higher bliss of
consciousness than without the second chance.
Jesus came to men with a altogether different doctrine and empowered His brother to teach His doctrine. This became the first Jesus movement known as
the Nazarene doctrine. Jesus taught that blood sacrifice was not needed and circumcision was also not needed for salvation. There was but only one
death of the body and the body would then return to the elements of this earth. The spirit [mind, not brain] would then be judged because the body is
controlled by the mind. The unjustified spirit would then be sent to Sheol and destroyed in the last day.
The justified spirit would enter the kingdom of the third heaven known as New Jerusalem. In this celestial realm are the trees and water of
everlasting life. Here the spirit is given a new body to cover the justified spirit and given a white stone with a new name. The water and fruit of
life will retain the new body forever. So in this we can understand the vast difference between the doctrine of Jesus and the rabbinic doctrine. In
this doctrine of Jesus, is the teaching that we are to die only once and then be judged immediately after death as a conscious spirit. The Gan Eden
of Adam is now in the celestial New Jerusalem. The last day judgement has no effect upon any who have died before the last day judgment. Every
person who has attained accountability for sin, at death, will be judged and will either be carried to either Sheol or Gan Eden as either unjustified
or justified spirits. In the last day when all living are then gathered and judged, will have no effect upon all who have died before that last day.
The last day in rabbinic Judaism and the last day in Nazarene doctrine of Jesus are two entirely different happenings. The Messiah of rabbinic
Judaism is a mortal and will die as a mortal and eventually lives as a disembodied spirit whereas the Messiah of the Nazarene is divine and the
begotten Son of The Most High EL who lives and offers everlasting life in a new celestial body which in turn lives forever with the divine Messiah.
So in lite of this there is absolutely no likeness between the two philosophies of that era. When we then look at the two philosophies in today's
understanding, we have to once again understand that the old Essene's and Sadducee's philosophies have been destroyed only to be replaced with
basically four movements [denominations] of rabbinic Judaism. These are Orthodox/Ultra Orthodox/Yeshivish Orthodox, Reform, Conservative, and
All of the orthodox movements believe in both Written and oral Torah. Reform Judaism does not believe that Torah was written by God and they do not
believe in observance of the commandments. The reform movement is about 35 % of the Judaic structure and are the liberals of Jewish belief. The
Conservative movement is between the Orthodox and Reform movements and is about 26 % of the Judaic structure. Men and women sit together and are both
vocal in matters of faith.
The Reconstructionist movement does not accept that God chose the Jews as a chosen people among other such beliefs. They are but about 2 % of the
Now back to the debate. Who is debating what? Without understanding the background of the debater, how can anyone get a clear picture of what is
truly meant? We could have debates among all of these movements and still not really know much more than what they want us to know. Jew encompasses
a vast study within each movement and most all who have not studied Judaic movements have no idea of what the debate is truly about. To truly
understand is to understand exactly what the movements of 2000 years ago were compared to the movements of today and why they evolved into what we see
That is why i said that this debate was not presented in a clear manner.