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Why don’t Jews Believe Jesus was a Messiah?? Dr. Brown vs. Rabbi Frietag

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posted on Dec, 28 2017 @ 09:03 AM
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The Jews have very particular ideas about what the fulfillment of their messianic prophecies will look like. Christ did not fit their preconceived notions, so they rejected him even as he did fulfill their prophecies.

The Jews wanted a King David to liberate them from the Romans, and they did not get that.




posted on Dec, 28 2017 @ 09:05 AM
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a reply to: Maverick7


Paul basically originated the idea of Original Sin and he also changed the concept to 'Redemption' and away from the following of "Laws". The XTian religion we know of today is not the "James/Peter" XTianity of post 50 years after JC's death, but the one that Paul created and spread and talked about in his letters to the Roman church.

Hope I got that straight. We just studied it in Ancient Political theory last semester.


What exactly did they teach you is different about Christianity today than it was "post 50 years after JC's death"?

The concept of original sin is all outlined in the book of Genesis, so I have no idea what you're talking about. The Bible made it clear that sin would result in all mankind having to labor and work the ground themselves for food, etc. in order to survive. How is that a Paul concept?

You've been ripped off and should ask for your money back. It's a good thing your class is called "Ancient Political Theory", otherwise, you'd probably have grounds to sue for misrepresentation of religious studies.



posted on Dec, 28 2017 @ 09:28 AM
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Once again, the Bible told us in the OLD TESTAMENT that we have all sinned and were never capable of saving ourselves through laws or works...

Isaiah 53:1-12

1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?

2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.


7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.



edit on 28-12-2017 by Deetermined because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 28 2017 @ 10:58 AM
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a reply to: GBP/JPY

If I had been debating him, I would've asked why they stopped doing sacrifices for sins if the law must be kept still.

Jaden



posted on Dec, 28 2017 @ 01:26 PM
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a reply to: ketsuko

How do you reconcile the fact the Old Testament repeatedly says not to believe anyone who comes telling you to change the laws??

A) the Jews don’t even interpret a lot of “those prophecies” as prophecies at all and if you watch the video. The main point of the evidence for Jesus as the messiah, is that Jesus was “the new covenant”. Well the next verse clearly states what that future covenant would be. It is not ambiguous.

It says that the new covenant will put knowledge of god and his laws in every Jew and gentile. Obviously that has not happened. So that CANNOT be a covenant predicting jesus.



posted on Dec, 28 2017 @ 01:32 PM
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a reply to: Masterjaden

That is a very fair point. I think that gets washed away in the “esop’s fables” take on Judaism. If I’m right they believe the stories are to teach you a moral, not to be interpreted literally.

That’s why Jews have dominated science most likely lol..

But that is a logical argument not a theology argument.


The questions are...


1) does the Torah repeatedly to exaustion warn the Jews to keep the laws?

2) does it even specifically and repeatedly tell them to reject anyone who tries to change them??


If so, why would god change that from being the central point to belief in his son as the central point..

Why would the Jews ever believe someone who comes to literally do the opposite from the central point???



posted on Dec, 28 2017 @ 01:57 PM
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a reply to: JoshuaCox


To them, the Bible says nothing about a “son of god” , it says nothing about miracles or resurrection, nor anything about belief in a divine figure who would rescue the worlds souls from damnation, Nothing about belief in his son becoming the primary concern. They were expecting, One who would deliver them from bondage, and after jesus died. They were stil in bondage....

The debate was not really presented in a correct manner. My opinion of course.

To understand Jewish doctrines [movements] is to understand the doctrine of Jesus compared to the doctrines of the Jewish people that were Sadducees, Pharisees and Essenes. The Sadducees came out of Hellenistic influence of Judaic philosophy which denied any sort of afterlife whatsoever. In that we can understand that a messiah,in their doctrine, was nothing but a mortal man who would rule this world in mortal configuration. These people were the aristocrats and appointed priests who ruled the nation Israel with no regard of oral Torah. Their doctrine was that what you see now is all you will ever see. They had little or no regard for the prophets who taught otherwise and were basically converts of both the Greek and Roman cultures. This was the ruling class as Jesus came upon the scene.

The Pharisees believed that The Most High EL [God of Jesus] gave both the oral and written Torah and that this was to be taught to the people by schooled men called rabbis. Both movements believed in blood sacrifice and the law giver named Moses. The Pharisees believed in a collective resurrection at the last day where all Jews would be reunited with their earthly bodies which were returned to the earth and their spirits which were contained in Sheol. The righteous Jew would then live a long and happy life and then die once again.

All unrighteous spirits would be then be carried to a compartment in Sheol and given one year in purgatory to cleanse the spirit. that spirit would then attend the terrestrial Gan Eden to re indoctrinate its errors and then pass into the celestial Gan Eden to reside in total bliss as a bodiless soul. The soul is now prepared for reincarnation if the choice is made to do so. This second chance is not needed for the soul that is righteous in its physical life. There are degrees of bliss and rewards in the Heavenly Gan Eden and the purpose of a reincarnation is to attain a higher bliss of consciousness than without the second chance.

Jesus came to men with a altogether different doctrine and empowered His brother to teach His doctrine. This became the first Jesus movement known as the Nazarene doctrine. Jesus taught that blood sacrifice was not needed and circumcision was also not needed for salvation. There was but only one death of the body and the body would then return to the elements of this earth. The spirit [mind, not brain] would then be judged because the body is controlled by the mind. The unjustified spirit would then be sent to Sheol and destroyed in the last day.

The justified spirit would enter the kingdom of the third heaven known as New Jerusalem. In this celestial realm are the trees and water of everlasting life. Here the spirit is given a new body to cover the justified spirit and given a white stone with a new name. The water and fruit of life will retain the new body forever. So in this we can understand the vast difference between the doctrine of Jesus and the rabbinic doctrine. In this doctrine of Jesus, is the teaching that we are to die only once and then be judged immediately after death as a conscious spirit. The Gan Eden of Adam is now in the celestial New Jerusalem. The last day judgement has no effect upon any who have died before the last day judgment. Every person who has attained accountability for sin, at death, will be judged and will either be carried to either Sheol or Gan Eden as either unjustified or justified spirits. In the last day when all living are then gathered and judged, will have no effect upon all who have died before that last day.

The last day in rabbinic Judaism and the last day in Nazarene doctrine of Jesus are two entirely different happenings. The Messiah of rabbinic Judaism is a mortal and will die as a mortal and eventually lives as a disembodied spirit whereas the Messiah of the Nazarene is divine and the begotten Son of The Most High EL who lives and offers everlasting life in a new celestial body which in turn lives forever with the divine Messiah.

So in lite of this there is absolutely no likeness between the two philosophies of that era. When we then look at the two philosophies in today's understanding, we have to once again understand that the old Essene's and Sadducee's philosophies have been destroyed only to be replaced with basically four movements [denominations] of rabbinic Judaism. These are Orthodox/Ultra Orthodox/Yeshivish Orthodox, Reform, Conservative, and Reconstructionist movements.

All of the orthodox movements believe in both Written and oral Torah. Reform Judaism does not believe that Torah was written by God and they do not believe in observance of the commandments. The reform movement is about 35 % of the Judaic structure and are the liberals of Jewish belief. The Conservative movement is between the Orthodox and Reform movements and is about 26 % of the Judaic structure. Men and women sit together and are both vocal in matters of faith.

The Reconstructionist movement does not accept that God chose the Jews as a chosen people among other such beliefs. They are but about 2 % of the Judaic structure.

Now back to the debate. Who is debating what? Without understanding the background of the debater, how can anyone get a clear picture of what is truly meant? We could have debates among all of these movements and still not really know much more than what they want us to know. Jew encompasses a vast study within each movement and most all who have not studied Judaic movements have no idea of what the debate is truly about. To truly understand is to understand exactly what the movements of 2000 years ago were compared to the movements of today and why they evolved into what we see today.

That is why i said that this debate was not presented in a clear manner.



posted on Dec, 28 2017 @ 03:07 PM
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a reply to: JoshuaCox


A) the Jews don’t even interpret a lot of “those prophecies” as prophecies at all and if you watch the video. The main point of the evidence for Jesus as the messiah, is that Jesus was “the new covenant”. Well the next verse clearly states what that future covenant would be. It is not ambiguous.

It says that the new covenant will put knowledge of god and his laws in every Jew and gentile. Obviously that has not happened. So that CANNOT be a covenant predicting jesus.


Once again, I'll say that the Old Testament talks extensively about the New Covenant that will take place during the Millennial period as described throughout the book of Zechariah (and many other Old Testament books), but that won't take place until after the battle of Armageddon.



posted on Dec, 28 2017 @ 03:14 PM
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a reply to: Akragon


there isn't a trinity in the Judaic faith


JPS (Hebrew) Bible

Psalms 51:11 (51:13) Cast me not away from Thy presence; and take not Thy holy spirit from me.

Isaiah 63:10 But they rebelled, and grieved His holy spirit; therefore He was turned to be their enemy, Himself fought against them.

Isaiah 63:11 Then His people remembered the days of old, the days of Moses: 'Where is He that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherds of His flock? Where is He that put His holy spirit in the midst of them?

Is this the same Holy Spirit than what is in the NT? If not then how many Holy Spirits are there? If it is then would this not also qualify as trinity?

As far as I can understand there is one God and one spirit of God.



posted on Dec, 28 2017 @ 03:26 PM
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a reply to: JoshuaCox


The questions are...


1) does the Torah repeatedly to exaustion warn the Jews to keep the laws?

2) does it even specifically and repeatedly tell them to reject anyone who tries to change them??


If so, why would god change that from being the central point to belief in his son as the central point..

Why would the Jews ever believe someone who comes to literally do the opposite from the central point???


I think the Jews are relying more on their own interpretation of the Torah through their Talmud than through the Bible itself. If they understood the Old Testament scriptures to begin with, they would have recognized Jesus when he came. I guess, such is the plan of God, that the Jews would be blinded in order that the rest of the world might be saved, even though Jesus came through the Jews.

Another interesting bible study is one on why God always showed preferential treatment to the second born as opposed to the first. The Jews always placed high priority on their first born. God always overlooked the first born and used the second born to do his will. (i.e. Cain vs. Abel, Ishmael vs Isaac, Esau vs. Jacob, etc.) There's a lesson to be learned in all of this.



posted on Dec, 28 2017 @ 04:55 PM
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a reply to: Seede

And still no trinity...

No matter how hard you want to try to shoe horn it in




posted on Dec, 28 2017 @ 05:15 PM
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a reply to: Deetermined

Released in 1976, oddly the year that I was born in, carry on my wayward son has to be the best track released from Kansas's classic album Leftoverture. But that wasn't the only good thing about the Album. The album cover was brilliant. For those unfamiliar with the artwork of Kansas’s they, in a nutshell, are quite literally works of art. But Leftoverture stood out, everytime I look at it it reminds me of My father, Moses, and Abraham, which brings me to this post

“With the hidden light, God nourishes the world.”
Zohar
“For the commandment is a candle, and the Torah is light.”
Proverbs 6:23

“The light created on the first day was hidden in the Torah itself.”
Baal Shem Tov, founder of Chassidism

There seems to be a pattern here - Light

Im not sure if Moses or Abraham said it but didn't one of them promise to bring the Jews to Light.The connection between Gods and man.

Agh Ill shut up and have a sing along to Kansas's Wayward son

www.youtube.com...

Hope everyone had a good Christmas



posted on Dec, 28 2017 @ 05:43 PM
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a reply to: DpatC

You were close on Proverbs 6:23...

23 For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life:

Love Kansas!



posted on Dec, 28 2017 @ 05:48 PM
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a reply to: Akragon


And still no trinity... No matter how hard you want to try to shoe horn it inText

And still no answer.

Once again.
JPS (Hebrew) Bible

Psalms 51:11 (51:13) Cast me not away from Thy presence; and take not Thy holy spirit from me.

Isaiah 63:10 But they rebelled, and grieved His holy spirit; therefore He was turned to be their enemy, Himself fought against them.

Isaiah 63:11 Then His people remembered the days of old, the days of Moses: 'Where is He that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherds of His flock? Where is He that put His holy spirit in the midst of them?

Is this the same Holy Spirit than what is in the NT?

A simple yes or no is appreciated.



posted on Dec, 28 2017 @ 05:50 PM
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a reply to: Deetermined

God even sent the Angel of Death to kill the firstborn among the Egyptians as the last plague.



posted on Dec, 28 2017 @ 05:59 PM
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a reply to: Seede

Fortunately it doesn't matter if its the same spirit mentioned in the NT or not...

Just because its mentioned in a passage does not make it part of a triune god

Nor does it make it equal to the other parts of said unknown triune god

Jesus and the devil are aso mentioned in the same passage... Are they equal as well?

Again, no matter how hard you try, you can't shoehorn a trinity into a place its not found


edit on 28-12-2017 by Akragon because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 28 2017 @ 09:05 PM
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All his feats, teachings, miracles, an the aftermath trolls the, thou shall not be named, an looked at God.

After his ascension to Heavens...( Or Olympus), sometime latee, Israel got raided, and here we are now.



posted on Dec, 28 2017 @ 11:25 PM
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originally posted by: ketsuko
The Jews have very particular ideas about what the fulfillment of their messianic prophecies will look like. Christ did not fit their preconceived notions, so they rejected him even as he did fulfill their prophecies.

The Jews wanted a King David to liberate them from the Romans, and they did not get that.


Actually it is easy to see that none of the prophecies have been fulfilled.

Nothing on this planet has gotten better overall by percentage...the people need to cling to hope to survive but we need better than hopeful heartfelt myths.

To escape this endless cycle will take something the books do not even offer.

All religions are but tools of the jailers.

TRUTH has not been seen yet..no meaningful questions have been put to the controllers...let us do so..instead of pretending GOD is in control.



posted on Dec, 28 2017 @ 11:28 PM
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originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Deetermined

God even sent the Angel of Death to kill the firstborn among the Egyptians as the last plague.


I think the Angel of Death will turn its sights upon the real plagues of Creation...all of us are sick of the charade.

God will not get away with this forever.......



posted on Dec, 29 2017 @ 06:31 AM
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a reply to: ParasuvO


Actually it is easy to see that none of the prophecies have been fulfilled.

Nothing on this planet has gotten better overall by percentage...the people need to cling to hope to survive but we need better than hopeful heartfelt myths.


If you knew the Bible, you would know that it tells us that everything will get worse on this planet, not better, so yes, prophecy is being fulfilled. We're not supposed to put any faith or hope in this world. The point is that we are imperfect humans who are constantly in error and only our Creator has the ability to straighten it out in the next life and world.




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