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Why don’t Jews Believe Jesus was a Messiah?? Dr. Brown vs. Rabbi Frietag

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posted on Jan, 1 2018 @ 08:06 AM
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originally posted by: Deetermined
a reply to: AngryCymraeg


I see. So - you think that non-Christians are inferior, based on your reading of the bible. Fascinating. Deluded, but fascinating.


It doesn't matter what I think. It only matters what the Creator thinks. I won't be the one judging them, He will.


Really? Then your god must be one of hate and anger. I'm glad I'm an atheist.




posted on Jan, 1 2018 @ 08:08 AM
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a reply to: JoshuaCox

But is the Hebrew God, just like the Muslim Allah, not the same dude as the one in our Bible?

After all, the 3 organized religious practices are of Abrahamic descent.

If there is a God he probably does not require anything from us, nevermind our attendance and/or worship/adoration/monies. Stands to reason really, implied omnipotence and all that jazz.


Happy new years by the way.
edit on 1-1-2018 by andy06shake because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 1 2018 @ 08:11 AM
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originally posted by: AngryCymraeg

originally posted by: Deetermined
a reply to: AngryCymraeg


I see. So - you think that non-Christians are inferior, based on your reading of the bible. Fascinating. Deluded, but fascinating.


It doesn't matter what I think. It only matters what the Creator thinks. I won't be the one judging them, He will.


Really? Then your god must be one of hate and anger. I'm glad I'm an atheist.


If there is an omniscient being and he's one of hate and anger, your simple disbelief won't save you.



posted on Jan, 1 2018 @ 08:16 AM
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a reply to: AngryCymraeg


Really? Then your god must be one of hate and anger. I'm glad I'm an atheist.


It sounds like you're projecting yourself onto God. Just because God allowed you free will to accept or reject him doesn't mean that He's the one who's full of hate and anger. Would you have preferred that He not allow you free will to choose?



posted on Jan, 1 2018 @ 08:19 AM
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a reply to: ketsuko

I imagine that any implied omnipotent omniscience entity would be above such concepts/constructs.

As to savior, well you cant fight or hide from predestination which is also apparently part of the creator's arsenal.

Which begs the question why bestow the notion of free will at all in any creations considering the diametric opposition free will presents to predestination?

Someone's telling porky pies, stands to reason.



posted on Jan, 1 2018 @ 08:23 AM
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a reply to: andy06shake


Which begs the question why bestow the notion of free will at all in any creations considering the diametric opposition free will presents to predestination?


There's a difference between predestination and foreknowledge. Just because God already knows what's going to happen and which way people choose through his foreknowledge, doesn't mean that we should call it predestination.


edit on 1-1-2018 by Deetermined because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 1 2018 @ 08:30 AM
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a reply to: Deetermined

Mate a plan combined with omniscience equates to predestination.

Cant have predestination at play if we possess free will as it kind of puts a spanner in the works unless you attempt to factor in such concepts as multiverse theory, and i dont seem to recall said theory raising its head in our Biblical texts aside from possibly John 14:2 "In my Father's house are many mansions" but that's not really what the verse was pertaining to unless im mistaken, which has been known to happen.



posted on Jan, 1 2018 @ 08:55 AM
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a reply to: andy06shake

God's plan was to allow angels and people free will, which is why we have fallen angels and fallen people. I guess the bigger question would be, why did God allow evil to exist in the first place? Was it because he wanted to share his knowledge of it with us, in order to appreciate that which is good? Can you appreciate one without knowing the other?

I'm not sure I understand what your point is in the "multiverse theory". We know that God exists in his own universe outside of ours. The Bible tells us that this world/life as we know it will end and a new heaven and earth will be created in order for us to live together with God in all of his perfection for eternity. As for the verse that you posted, here is more context...

John 14:1-3

14 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Revelation 21:1-4

21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.



posted on Jan, 1 2018 @ 09:07 AM
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originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: Deetermined

Mate a plan combined with omniscience equates to predestination.

Cant have predestination at play if we possess free will as it kind of puts a spanner in the works unless you attempt to factor in such concepts as multiverse theory, and i dont seem to recall said theory raising its head in our Biblical texts aside from possibly John 14:2 "In my Father's house are many mansions" but that's not really what the verse was pertaining to unless im mistaken, which has been known to happen.


Sure, so God knows who will win the Super Bowl?

Well ... if He knows, then I guess there is no point in any of the teams playing, right? The outcome is predetermined. It's a moot point. No one has to play and break their bodies. We know.

Except if no one plays, no one wins, there is not Super Bowl. Paradox. But then God would know that too.


You better not do anything. God will know what you're going to do, and there's not point.

Of course, *you* have not clue what you're going to do, and while God may know, He doesn't seem to be telling.



posted on Jan, 1 2018 @ 09:10 AM
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a reply to: JoshuaCox


Texta reply to: Seede A) I know he didn’t.. because the Jewish followers of jesus rejected Paul and his claim of “visions”... as well as his assertion that Christians were no longer bound by Hebrew law.. Paul represented his own faction with vastly different dogma that was far more palletable to the Romans.. Which led to far more recruitment, which led to his faction gaining dominance.. James and others wanted everyone to remain Jews.. edit on 31-12-2017 by JoshuaCox because: (no reason given)

Not true at all. Paul was a fellow traveler with Peter on many missions including Rome. Paul was also chosen as the thirteenth apostle by Jesus. Jesus chose all of His apostles including Paul. Matthias was chosen by man through their own understanding and not confirmed by Jesus but believe as you will. Even though Paul held no office, he did spend several weeks with the congregation while being taught their liturgy. As Peter baptized Clement to be the third Bishop of Rome, he did so with the blessing of John. It was Clement of Rome that sat at the feet of John as John's disciple and all four men [Paul, James. John, and Peter] were very close brothers of the faith. Paul's letters became profitable to the Roman church long after his death and he preached nothing that was not acceptable to the liturgy of James.

If you want to really see how untrue critics can be, take a good long look at Peter. As Jesus was being scourged and tried by the Sanhedrin, it was Peter who cursed and lied in denying the scoundrel named Jesus. Should you not then accuse Peter as being a devil as well as Paul? But no, let's pick on Paul and give Peter a pass. Then we can also look at Barnabas and see his petty sulking because he didn't get his way in life. There are many other instances that are overlooked by critics because men are not perfect and will always be liars and thieves. They are simply human and not gods.



posted on Jan, 1 2018 @ 09:33 AM
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a reply to: JoshuaCox
a reply to: Seede


TextPaul authored 13 of the 27 books.. That is basically half.. A guy who never even met Jesus authored half the New Testament... Yea.. he was definitely a bit player..

Not true at all. Paul authored only seven NT letters. Romans, 1/2 Timothy, Titus, 1/2 Thessalonians, Galatians were the seven Letters authored by Paul. He did influence other literature by his teaching and is credited unjustly with other letters by critics who actually are wrong.

It is strongly believed that Paul was actually a member of the Sanhedrin that tried and acquitted Jesus. His attendance at the death of Stephen proves that Paul was a member of the Sanhedrin. The courts always had a member of the court verify the sentence be carried out. Paul was that member.



posted on Jan, 1 2018 @ 10:27 AM
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a reply to: ketsuko

Certainly, a conundrum wrapped in an enigma if ever there was one.

The answers i suspect are possibly above Humanities current paygrade.


Fact is we simply don't have the tools or mental capacity to ponder some of the more flamboyant idiocracies that surround such questions, and quite possibly never will.



posted on Jan, 1 2018 @ 10:29 AM
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a reply to: andy06shake

Hence why I don't think it worth my while to worry about whether or not it's all predetermined. So what if it is? I don't know from one second to the next what I'll be doing, so as far as I am concerned, I have free will.



posted on Jan, 1 2018 @ 10:34 AM
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a reply to: Deetermined

My understanding is that angels possess no free will of there own hence one has to wonder how they ever managed to descend to Earth and interbreed with our females?

After all, tools don't just decide to jump out there box and rebel.


Good and Evil are very human constructs and simply would not apply to omnipotent beings by the very definition of omnipotence.

We dont know if there even is a God but chances are if there is then its nothing like our very anthropomorphized Man-made concept of such.

I dont know where you get perfection from either as there is nothing perfect about our race both biologically speaking and from a moral perspective.

Humanity is a work in progress im afraid and simply the best evolution can come up to date.



posted on Jan, 1 2018 @ 10:36 AM
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a reply to: ketsuko

Probably six of one and a half dozen of the other.

Illusory or otherwise free will is a requirement we simply cannot, or refuse, to live without.



posted on Jan, 1 2018 @ 10:44 AM
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originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: Deetermined

My understanding is that angels possess no free will of there own hence one has to wonder how they ever managed to descend to Earth and interbreed with our females?


Angels do possess free will, that's why we have fallen angels. Satan was once an angel of light before he rebelled and turned against God because he wanted to be God.


Good and Evil are very human constructs and simply would not apply to omnipotent beings by the very definition of omnipotence.


Only God is omnipotent, angels are not.


I dont know where you get perfection from either as there is nothing perfect about our race both biologically speaking and from a moral perspective.

Humanity is a work in progress im afraid and simply the best evolution can come up to date.


No one said life would be perfect in this world. That's why we have religion and the Bible. We aren't supposed to focus on this world, we're supposed to focus on the next one. Christianity teaches that after this life is over, our spirits inherit an incorruptible body that will live in perfection for eternity with our Creator, but it requires faith in the Creator to do so.



posted on Jan, 1 2018 @ 10:53 AM
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a reply to: Deetermined

Show me where it says in the Bible that angels are anything more than tools that supposedly implement the word of God?

There is nothing perfect about creation im afraid aside from the math, Pi, Phi, G and the like.


Faith requires a leap whilst facts require proof and repetition. If only God is omnipotent, then why are we supposedly created in his image? The implication being we would possess the ability to attain omnipotence/omniscience which somehow i imagine would not be in line with attendance/worship of God in the first place.


Christianity also teaches that slavery is ok and that to kill an infidel in the name of God is not a crime or transgression yet we are "all Jock Tamson's bairns" so i think we can assume that God is rather contrary and hypocritical at best.

edit on 1-1-2018 by andy06shake because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 1 2018 @ 11:28 AM
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originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: Deetermined

Show me where it says in the Bible that angels are anything more than tools that supposedly implement the word of God?


Revelation 12:7-9

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.


There is nothing perfect about creation im afraid aside from the math, Pi, Phi, G and the like.


Who do you think created Pi, Phi, G and the like before it was named? While you may not believe that creation is perfect, the world and nature have a way of surviving and replenishing itself as long as we don't interfere and corrupt it.


Faith requires a leap whilst facts require proof and repetition. If only God is omnipotent, then why are we supposedly created in his image? The implication being we would possess the ability to attain omnipotence/omniscience which somehow i imagine would not be in line with attendance/worship of God in the first place.


We were created in God's image from the standpoint that we are able to think, reason, feel emotions, etc.


Christianity also teaches that slavery is ok and that to kill an infidel in the name of God is not a crime or transgression yet we are "all Jock Tamson's bairns" so i think we can assume that God is rather contrary and hypocritical at best.


God's the Creator. He can do whatever he pleases, and yes, he allowed slavery on earth so that man would recognize their need for a Savior and a promise for a better life if they trusted in Him.



posted on Jan, 1 2018 @ 11:35 AM
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a reply to: Deetermined

"Revelation 12:7-9

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

None of the above suggests these alleged beings possed freewill or that they were anything other than tools. Plus how could there be war when Gods omnipotent, that would be a rather one sided affair would it not?

"Who do you think created Pi, Phi, G and the like before it was named? While you may not believe that creation is perfect, the world and nature have a way of surviving and replenishing itself as long as we don't interfere and corrupt it."

There are a multitude of possibilities there none of which require a Christian god to function.

"God's the Creator. He can do whatever he pleases, and yes, he allowed slavery on earth so that man would recognize their need for a Savior and a promise for a better life if they trusted in Him."

So slaves existed just so that Jesus came amongst us???


What about afterward? And don't you think that's rather a lot of pain suffering and misery to bring about just to prove an imaginary point?

This God dude seems to be one rather cold-hearted mofo imho.





edit on 1-1-2018 by andy06shake because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 1 2018 @ 11:48 AM
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originally posted by: andy06shake
a reply to: Deetermined

None of the above suggests these alleged beings possed freewill or that they were anything other than tools. Plus how could there be war when Gods omnipotent, that would be a rather one sided affair would it not?


What part do you not understand about angels having free will and NOT being omnipotent?! You're not paying attention.


There are a multitude of possibilities there none of which require a Christian god to function.


Yet, you can't name one possibility.


So slaves existed just so that Jesus came amongst us???


What about afterward? And don't you think that's rather a lot of pain suffering and misery to bring about just to prove an imaginary point?

This God dude seems to be one rather cold-hearted mofo imho.


We bring pain and suffering on ourselves and it doesn't just happen to prove "an imaginary point". The problem isn't that God is cold-hearted, but that man is.



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