Very Strange Incoming Radar/Earth's Atmosphere

a reply to: DexterRiley

Now I see. You don't understand the notion that the transmitter is essentially geographically co-located with the receiver. The offending transmitter is located within a short distance of the receiving system.

Wrong...
The RX is located in DC Metropolitan area, the TX is located in Timmins, ON. A far cry to being geographically co-located. That is about 900 miles apart, with about 100 miles of obscure curvature of the earth. 

Are you sure your not the flat earther?

Ground wave leakage and other spurious emissions from the high power transmission system overload the front end of the radio. Depending on the power of the signal, the RFI could be manifested as anything from minor static to fully intelligible speech.

That depends on what kind of cheap radio you have...  I bet your cheap alarm clock radio works really well with that lol. 

I still experience CB generated RFI in the FM radio in my car. Every once in a while I'll pass a tractor-trailer on the highway where the driver is running some ungodly powerful linear amplifier. I get static in the radio that's indicative of a CB transmission.

You also said, "Conclusion: Less probable. It seems like this would have been seen before, as well as been experienced by others in the neighborhood."

What? 
Who in the "neighborhood" is listening for meteors? CB radio operators? 

So, here is the deal.  
What I was describing: If you are not listening for meteors or UFO's etc.. no one is going to know where the RFI comes from. The only reason you know it's CB radio is because your on the highway, or you may have heard 10-4 big buddy!

A CB radio operator seeing a spike in signal is not going to think nothing of it, especially unusual RFI... because the RF is so trashy already in those bands.

Actually the atmospheric level is somewhat important. However, only the ionosphere when it is exhibiting the Sporadic E. propagation effect will reflect VHF signals. When Sporadic E. propagation is absent, even the ionosphere doesn't reflect VHF transmissions at 55 MHz. 

Based on your very nice drawing, it appears that your detection method relies on some form of atmospheric reflection of the RF signal. Since these VHF frequencies are not subject to such reflection, what you propose is incorrect. 

Really.... Really.... LOL

You was just talking about old analog TV's?   

You don't remember the old days when airplanes crossed your house antenna and your TV station, and that the TV picture would get all out of wack etc... They even called it airplane flutter or ghosting.

Save yourself from wasting time on this subject and read this pdf.

Here is an excerpt:

Abstract:The  paper  studies  effect  of  quasi-periodic  orairplane flutter phenomenon on television broadcastingsignal.  Airplane  flutter  is  a  very  important  problem.  Itcauses  the  receiving  antenna  to  receive  both  directsignal  by  the  Tx  (Transmitter  antenna)  and  reflectedsignal  scattered  by  the  airplane  with  phase  delay.  Thesum of two signals results in fading, sometime collapseand  distortion  of  picture  on  TV  screen.  We  performedmeasurement  and  modeling  this  phenomenon  on  TVsignal when the airplane flew across and range Tx andRx (Receiver antenna).

The frequency 60.75MHz (Aural frequency ofCH3)  is  used  under  tests.  A  single  scatter  multipathmodel is introduced. It is used to duplicate some of themeasured  data  and  show  the  dependence  of  powervariation  on  the  airplane  fluttering.  The  fluctuation  ofthe  airplane  flutter  phenomenon  was  calculated  to  bearound 2-4dB. The Yaki antenna is used for improvingairplane flutter problem because it can make high gainand high directivity.

I. INTRODUCTION:
The interference occurred on television broadcasting system when the airplane flies over the
path between TV transmitter and TV receiver. This is called “airplane flutter” problem.

2003.iccas.org...

I'm sorry you feel that way. However, your misunderstanding of the information I've presented is leading you to that erroneous conclusion.

I'm only presenting facts.... 

a reply to: DexterRiley

Based on your very nice drawing, it appears that your detection method relies on some form of atmospheric reflection of the RF signal. Since these VHF frequencies are not subject to such reflection, what you propose is incorrect.

I drew the most extreme situation. (Both tx and rx can't see the airplane: No line of site ( with the curvature of the earth (site=sight haha.)  There is no line of sight to the aircraft, but at 56MHz it is common for aircraft / ionosphere to be refractive at that frequency.

I could draw you several variations of no line of sight. I like stick plane drawings... lol

The reason your wrong is answered below.

In order to be in the path of the rx and tx, doesn't the object have to be visible to both sites? If so, 100 ft is definitely not high enough. Given the distance separating the tx and rx that requires the object to be at 20 km. Do the math.

The reason it doesn't have to be visible to both sites is because of the frequency.  At 56MHZ the RF signal can be bent by the ionosphere/or by tropo conditions... thus the RF can return at long distances.  The low end of the VHF band can be bent by the atmosphere. The high end of the VHF band is more line of sight, it is limited by the curvature of the Earth.

a reply to: CraftyArrow

Ok, I'm getting tired of this.

The RX is located in DC Metropolitan area, the TX is located in Timmins, ON. A far cry to being geographically co-located. That is about 900 miles apart, with about 100 miles of obscure curvature of the earth.

What the hell does that have to do with a CB radio causing local RFI? That was the whole point of my mentioning it in my write-up in the first place. Can't you understand that????

You also said, "Conclusion: Less probable. It seems like this would have been seen before, as well as been experienced by others in the neighborhood." What? Who in the "neighborhood" is listening for meteors? CB radio operators?

Good lord. I'm not even going to try to explain this to you again. See my previous answer concerning locally generated RFI.

The only reason you know it's CB radio is because your on the highway, or you may have heard 10-4 big buddy!

There are other ways of determining the probable cause of RFI, including noticing the modulation patterns and signal switching.

You don't remember the old days when airplanes crossed your house antenna and your TV station, and that the TV picture would get all out of wack etc... They even called it airplane flutter or ghosting.

This has nothing to do with ionospheric reflection. Airplanes reflected the signals of relatively close TV broadcast transmitters, not ones from 1000 km away.

The solution you presented in your drawing relies on some form of atmospheric reflection. With rare exception, the ionosphere does not reflect VHF signals. Therefore what you propose is A BIG FAIL!

I'm not even going into this whole notion of airplane ghosting because it has nothing to do with anything that I've proposed.

I'm through with this debate. It's clear that you can't comprehend what I'm saying. So, I'm not wasting any more time on this subject.

Thanks,
-dex

a reply to: dashen

I'm not able to upload a photo at the moment...one of qanons latest posts references this very thread's premise, with "keep your eyes to the skies" captioning the video in code. Fwiw.

a reply to: DexterRiley

Read above, explains why your wrong about VHF....56Mhz is close to the Hf spectrum and is refractive to atmospheric conditions.

You might have to figure that out on your own. 10-4.

You brought up CB radio lol.....

a reply to: CraftyArrow

At 56MHZ the RF signal can be bent by the ionosphere/or by tropo conditions... thus the RF can return at long distances.

Get your facts straight.

VHF signals with frequencies above about 30 MHz usually penetrate the ionosphere and are not returned to the Earth's surface. E-skip is a notable exception, where VHF signals including FM broadcast and VHF TV signals are frequently reflected to the Earth during late Spring and early Summer.

(emphasis mine)

Wikipedia skywave

-dex

a reply to: DexterRiley

There you go.
You just proved my point with E-skip... Plus It happens more often on the lower end of the VHF spectrum. VHF refracts off the ionosphere. Check mark...

Plus it's near the HF band..... Im giving you real world information, not generalization of what HF or VHF is above or below 30mhz according to google searches.

Again:
At 56MHz the RF signal can be bent by the ionosphere/or by tropo conditions... thus the RF can return at long distances. The low end of the VHF band can be bent by the atmosphere. The high end of the VHF band is more line of sight, it is limited by the curvature of the Earth.

originally posted by: DexterRiley
a reply to: CraftyArrow


1. I'm not even going into this whole notion of airplane ghosting because it has nothing to do with anything that I've proposed.

2. I'm through with this debate. It's clear that you can't comprehend what I'm saying. So, I'm not wasting any more time on this subject.

Thanks,
-dex

1. Sure it connects to what you said, "VHF is not subject to such reflections."

The pdf I linked shows a study that aircraft can reflect signals at about the same frequency of 56MHz. Thus again proves you wrong. Also the rx or tx can be close to an airplane to reflect dx, or neither as in my drawing.

2. Sure I do, I have built RFI detectors from toy parts... Your CB analogy of harmonics and linear RFI doesn't = to less probable, simply because you have no examples of CB operators blowing smoke on 56MHz? A dead key it could easily be.

Plus, what is it.... maybe total of 2 or 3 people listening on 56MHz for meteors.... How many listening for RFI? Proably zero, zilch on CB operators lol.

Jeez man, the CB thing was just a rub, no reason to run off lol.

a reply to: TruthxIsxInxThexMist

Don't worry, I overreacted a bit, hahah. There was no way you could know, I was just unlucky. I'm loving the book so far, though. And it really got me wondering about 'Oumuamua, how I wish we could send someone there to explore it.

originally posted by: DexterRiley
a reply to: CraftyArrow


With rare exception, the ionosphere does not reflect VHF signals. Therefore what you propose is A BIG FAIL!

Except that it does, especially at frequencies closer to HF. I've personally received FM broadcast stations, far higher in frequency than 55MHz (88 to 108MHz), from several stations across North America, some at distances well in excess of 1,000km. Not only that, but I've encountered it several times over the last 3-4 years.

originally posted by: CraftyArrow
a reply to: DexterRiley

There you go.
You just proved my point with E-skip... Plus It happens more often on the lower end of the VHF spectrum. VHF refracts off the ionosphere. Check mark...

Plus it's near the HF band..... Im giving you real world information, not generalization of what HF or VHF is above or below 30mhz according to google searches.

Again:
At 56MHz the RF signal can be bent by the ionosphere/or by tropo conditions... thus the RF can return at long distances. The low end of the VHF band can be bent by the atmosphere. The high end of the VHF band is more line of sight, it is limited by the curvature of the Earth.

I already addressed E-skip. Sporadic E-skip doesn't exist all of the time. Please go back and read my original post.

You've presented nothing new.

-dex

a reply to: CraftyArrow

RFI affects a lot of different type of electronics. It's called "static" Nobody is intentionally listening for static.

You fail again.

-dex

originally posted by: diachi

originally posted by: DexterRiley
a reply to: CraftyArrow


With rare exception, the ionosphere does not reflect VHF signals. Therefore what you propose is A BIG FAIL!

Except that it does, especially at frequencies closer to HF. I've personally received FM broadcast stations, far higher in frequency than 55MHz (88 to 108MHz), from several stations across North America, some at distances well in excess of 1,000km. Not only that, but I've encountered it several times over the last 3-4 years.

If you aren't seeing it constantly, then you are experiencing sporadic E-skip. The ionosphere doesn't normally reflect VHF signals.

-dex

a reply to: DexterRiley

RFI affects a lot of different type of electronics. It's called "static" Nobody is intentionally listening for static.

CB guy you make me laugh... lol. 

Nobody here is denying RFI affects electronics, however people do listen for static for all kinds of reasons... lighting strikes, solar emissions, white noise, cosmic noise etc... or UFO's!

 Atmospheric noise is pretty high on 50 MHz, much higher than your car FM radio.

If you actually use a radio for dx listening, you would know this. : P
But you don't know, because Google is your friend. 
Try using a radio sometime.

If you aren't seeing it constantly, then you are experiencing sporadic E-skip. The ionosphere doesn't normally reflect VHF signals.

Keep on digging a google hole, and I will fill it in with the dirt.

E-skip is never constant, however ionoscatter can happen at anytime on 56MHz.

Again, It is very common to get DX year round on 6 meters,  even with tropo dx you can get up to hundreds of miles day and night regardless of band conditions.

I guess you never heard of "The Magic Band" 50-54 MHz. E-skip can peak around this time of year. Again it's much like HF propagation, iono dx can open up anytime, with troposcatter always there 365 days a year!

Here let me reword this for you....
Again, the ionosphere doesn't normally reflect "THE HIGH END" of the VHF band. The lower part of the VHF band can reflect.

Santa Claus making a trial run with some fresh reindeer.

a reply to: DexterRiley

Let me draw this up again, forgive me I couldn't find my pencil.

Also important is the tx is throwing out tones of watts. It going to have lots of tropo and iono bounce at 56MHz. Plus the rx is a Yagi, that will be lots of gain too.

Possible scenario.

I wonder if there is a way to get temperature readings at various altitudes that would indicate where a meteorite smacked into the atmosphere and heated it up for a moment. An IR camera of some kind, perhaps. It would be cool to have a composite shot of a sky in broad daylight superimposed with little colorful blooms of meteorites as they heat up and die.

a reply to: dashen

Darn it; I thought they'd fixed the cloaking device on the mothership! More repairs....arg!

Seriously, though, if this was anything worrisome, we'd know by now.

originally posted by: LadyGreenEyes
a reply to: dashen


Seriously, though, if this was anything worrisome, we'd know by now.

no we wouldnt.


we'd find out by the time the ET's are sucking our vital fluids out for space cocktails

originally posted by: dashen

originally posted by: LadyGreenEyes
a reply to: dashen


Seriously, though, if this was anything worrisome, we'd know by now.

no we wouldnt.


we'd find out by the time the ET's are sucking our vital fluids out for space cocktails

Well, alright, if a HUGE ship landed, all cloaked, and didn't flatten anything, I suppose it could hide. Seems unlikely, though. Anyone check with any officials about the radar reading?