Jesus the deceiver? Satan the true prophet?

Jesus might as well be the Dragon.

Water a symbol of Chaos in western literature, Dragons are revered pagan spirits usually associated with life an death in the east. Gospel of Thomas says he went into an underground cavern, full of dragons an beasts, but when he spoke, he earned their respective an attention.

Also in most polytheistic religions, water an dragons go hand an hand in creation myths. Zeus vs Typhon, Indra vs Vrita, Horus vs Set( or Set an Apep to be more precise) Marduk vs A storm/lightning beast named Anzu. Hell, Micheal slaying Satan the same thing. Usually dragons were considered feline but I guess they got cool, an boys said no, mine.

Dragons were Frankenstein monster when it came to animism. Also Jesus has very remind like feature and is associated with a fish, which love water. Not to mention in the gospel of Thomas, he did speak to a legion of Dragonsz and was ocd about the environment.

And let's not forget he a carpenter, which can be associated with death in Japan to some how. The Woodman with an axe or a sycthe that goes agasint the grain for no apparent reason at all other then harvesting for the winter?

originally posted by: Sapphire

originally posted by: Sheye

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: TruthJava

Yeah, going on 1500 years now. The end is nigh.
Those claiming it, those scoffing.

The scoffers seem to have had it right.

The scoffers have it right ?

The world wasn't forcast to " end" in the bible. What was forcast was times of great trial and tribulation before the second coming of Christ and an era of peace to follow.

The bible also states no man knows when Christ's return is ,but to watch for the warnings and signs .

That doesn't prove scoffers are right, and we will all have to wait patiently to see who is right in the end.

Didn't Nostradamus imply a chaotic future for all? Or am i mistaken.

Chaotic and end are two different things. There will be a time of great grace given accompanied by a spiritual sign , which will baffle even the most intelligent scientists. After this period of grace in hope of conversion ( which we are in ... but the sign is yet to come)) , a time of great trial and tribulation will fall on mankind.

Nostradamus's prediction is still very legit, because there will be chaos at some point.

The creator/destroyer god (God to many), knows of good and evil. His good half (creation), is Chrestos and his bad half (destruction), is Demiurge. As long as we limit ourselves to the physical, we are enslaved by matter through Satan, the lower octave of the creator god. We were made in the creator god’s image, not the unknowable God’s, and can operate in both Satanic and Luciferic realms. Those that do not ascend to a higher octave, must find a balance between the Chrestos/Demiurge consciousness to save themselves from total destruction (spirit death), or from becoming a conscious tool of Satan and the Demiurgic forces (chaos/destruction).

a reply to: silo13

This is exactly what I mean.

First of: you allow a tradition at least 1500 years younger than the Genesis first 11 chapters to interpret it's meaning. At least you should recognize that the pentateuch is absolutely silent on the identity of the speaker. One clue I gave you is the question regarding morals. How can you punish a puppet and not the originator. And again: Why punish humankind when your own sons are f|_|king with them. Punish the perp, not the victims! Apparently, God came to the conclusion it was not such a good idea so he gave Moses a different standard. Is this a God with whom there is no changing of the shadow? Of course it is not. And therefore you cannot use later scripture to interpret older pieces of scripture.

Secondly: You did not answer any question truthfully, but knee jerked a bible text as an answer. It may sound intelligent to you, but in no way do you emulate the alleged writer of the letter to the Corinthians, Paul, by logically proving .....You show you have closed your mind. But, please, try again, I dare you to honestly assess according to my questions, if you can.

I confess, I wrote that piece on purpose. As my ex would say: I am the Satan's orator. But it is not meant to hurt you. It is meant to empower you.

Thirdly: quoting from Corinthians, a Paulian letter, confirms the bait and switch I talked about. From a Christian perspective, the entity accused of being Satan and Devil is mixed up with his antagonist: Adonai.
when you look at it through the glass of time. Simply make a spreadsheet with each bible book in Colum A, the year it is estimated to have been written, and what it tells you about the nature of the devil, or Satan, or Satan the Devil, or Lucifer, or whatever name you come across presented as being the antagonist of Adonai. Overlay that with the answers to the following:
How did the following countries view approximate figures as Satan, Devil.
- Egypt
- Babylon
- Persia
- Greek Philosophy


You fail to see HOW the bible came into being and treat it as as one book, one message. It is not. If you wish to treat it as one book, you have to accept all kinds of forces acting upon it's collection not the least the one stemming from the period of King Hezekiah where the lost books of Moses law were mysteriously found (ca 700 -650 if my memory serves me well. If I err here, please, correct me if I am wrong.) after having been lost for decades ..... If anything: this would have been the most convenient moment to introduce Mosaic law and all the stories connected with it.

After Jesus's life, many gospels were written, and even more were destroyed without us knowing about it. The same happened with Mohammed. The tales of his life had to be collected. And some of them were considered authoritative, others were disgarded. It is quite imaginable that under king Hezekiah, the new ideas about a special status were well received and from left and right came the stories ...

if you accept the Paulian adagium that all of scripture is .... inspired by God .....so as to make the person of God fully capable of and ready to perform all kinds of good work (I paraphrase here but you'll get my point) you also accept that the book Numbers and Kings and Chronicles are inspired by God's spirit, the God who cannot lie ...... right? What about the clear exaggerations in the stories of these Book.
- The staggering amount of quails (billions)
- The staggering amount of people (600.000 men plus wifes and kids and cattle) remaining 2 years in one place in the desert: question: where is the dung, urine and the bones of those who died) And to further add insult to injury: how big a tent encampment do you think it has been? And how much water do you think had to be distributed each day? And how about the manna outside of the encampment? How about going for a dump outside the encampment?
- The staggering amount of Gold in the temple, more than has been extracted by the Spanish from the Americas.
- the staggering amount of animals used in the dedication process of the temple. If you compare that to the holocaust, you simply have to stand in awe for this simple feat of logistics. One source of info on how much fuel it costs to CONSUME a carcass and how much ash to produces, please see the EU mad cow destruction regulation. And speaking of ashes, they were thrown into the valley of Hinom, right. How come there is not a trace to be found? The stack of ash must be very very high indeed. Next to the ashes, it also produces significant amount of dung and pee. Ever seen what a 100 sheep do to a field? Or a 100 cows? 100 cows and sheep? ok: 10.000 cows then?

And when you simply start calculating, you begin to understand where the exaggeration is.

If you were to regard the bible as one book and the unaltered revelation of Gods will (which is quite a sweeping statement for which no sweeping proof has been offered), it would be the same thing as to to read, for example, the Geneva convention of today into people waging war 2000 years ago: Hannibal, Scipio Africanus or julius Ceasar's adventures in Gaul. .....You simply cannot do that.

So, you must, by definition, first start at the beginning and let only the beginning form your idea. You must unlearn what you have learned, open your mind and read it with new eyes, slowly, let it sink in.

originally posted by: visitedbythem
Yeshua doesn't look like the picture that portrayed. He was a homely man. It is all nonsense. Deception. Satan is filled with hatred, because he wasn't made in the image of God Like we are. Thus the jealousy. Angelic are not like us. They cause war, Not the Living God.
They had a choice, and they made the bed. They wish to discredit God and are very good at doing so.

Now it is your turn to make your choice. Choose wisely

The only deception here is your crazy ass thinks he looked like a homely man, like one of us would. Only, if thats the case, he did not make us in his image because neanderthals do not look like us. Only some similarities that eventually EVOLVED into what we are now. Try to be logical and don't feed in what you're told by others. Think for yourself.

And for the record, before you go there, I am a believer in God. Humans arent capable of getting what he/she/it looks like. Its all interpretation. If they claim they have the answer, they are wrong.

From your behavior and name calling over the totally unimportant looks of Yeshua, it appears that you worship another being.

originally posted by: Soulece

originally posted by: visitedbythem
Yeshua doesn't look like the picture that portrayed. He was a homely man. It is all nonsense. Deception. Satan is filled with hatred, because he wasn't made in the image of God Like we are. Thus the jealousy. Angelic are not like us. They cause war, Not the Living God.
They had a choice, and they made the bed. They wish to discredit God and are very good at doing so.

Now it is your turn to make your choice. Choose wisely

The only deception here is your crazy ass thinks he looked like a homely man, like one of us would. Only, if thats the case, he did not make us in his image because neanderthals do not look like us. Only some similarities that eventually EVOLVED into what we are now. Try to be logical and don't feed in what you're told by others. Think for yourself.

And for the record, before you go there, I am a believer in God. Humans arent capable of getting what he/she/it looks like. Its all interpretation. If they claim they have the answer, they are wrong.

originally posted by: Sheye

Nostradamus's prediction is still very legit, because there will be chaos at some point.

Chaos is subjective.

Children being sold as sex slaves is chaotic. People losing their homes, families, and worldly goods to senseless wars is chaotic. Someone coming down with a deadly disease, and having to deal with it till their last breath may think that was chaotic.

Chaos and the end of the world for many is going on right now.

originally posted by: visitedbythem
From your behavior and name calling over the totally unimportant looks of Yeshua, it appears that you worship another being.

originally posted by: Soulece

originally posted by: visitedbythem
Yeshua doesn't look like the picture that portrayed. He was a homely man. It is all nonsense. Deception. Satan is filled with hatred, because he wasn't made in the image of God Like we are. Thus the jealousy. Angelic are not like us. They cause war, Not the Living God.
They had a choice, and they made the bed. They wish to discredit God and are very good at doing so.

Now it is your turn to make your choice. Choose wisely

The only deception here is your crazy ass thinks he looked like a homely man, like one of us would. Only, if thats the case, he did not make us in his image because neanderthals do not look like us. Only some similarities that eventually EVOLVED into what we are now. Try to be logical and don't feed in what you're told by others. Think for yourself.

And for the record, before you go there, I am a believer in God. Humans arent capable of getting what he/she/it looks like. Its all interpretation. If they claim they have the answer, they are wrong.

The irony of some christians is that they claim if the other person doesnt believe in their god, they dont believe in THE god. Thats hilarious. And also moronic. I can 100% confirm, I do not believe in satan or any evil being. What do you say to that? I 100% claim you will say "you're lying". Well, I'm not. Your move.

a reply to: Yvhmer

I confess, I wrote that piece on purpose. As my ex would say: I am the Satan's orator. But it is not meant to hurt you. It is meant to empower you.

By the blood of of Christ my Lord and Savior, the Savior of the All Mankind remove this evil one's attention from me. You've warned your children not to converse with devils whos intent it is to bring down with the original lie of enlightening, in raising up. I will not be tempted by the original sin, words of death. I am a Child Of God and to no other but my Lord will I Believe and Rely on. You are the One who raised me up Lord. The One who protects me and keeps me safe. You are the One I yearn to know more of every night, every day, in every moment by staying in Your word, spending time with the Holy Spirit, my Comforter. In coming to You in prayer and Thanksgiving. Save me Lord from anything that doesn't Glorify You and You only. In Christ's precious name. Amen.

originally posted by: Soulece

originally posted by: visitedbythem
From your behavior and name calling over the totally unimportant looks of Yeshua, it appears that you worship another being.

originally posted by: Soulece

originally posted by: visitedbythem
Yeshua doesn't look like the picture that portrayed. He was a homely man. It is all nonsense. Deception. Satan is filled with hatred, because he wasn't made in the image of God Like we are. Thus the jealousy. Angelic are not like us. They cause war, Not the Living God.
They had a choice, and they made the bed. They wish to discredit God and are very good at doing so.

Now it is your turn to make your choice. Choose wisely

The only deception here is your crazy ass thinks he looked like a homely man, like one of us would. Only, if thats the case, he did not make us in his image because neanderthals do not look like us. Only some similarities that eventually EVOLVED into what we are now. Try to be logical and don't feed in what you're told by others. Think for yourself.

And for the record, before you go there, I am a believer in God. Humans arent capable of getting what he/she/it looks like. Its all interpretation. If they claim they have the answer, they are wrong.

The irony of some christians is that they claim if the other person doesnt believe in their god, they dont believe in THE god. Thats hilarious. And also moronic. I can 100% confirm, I do not believe in satan or any evil being. What do you say to that? I 100% claim you will say "you're lying". Well, I'm not. Your move.

You can 100% confirm YOU don't believe in satan or any evil being. Sure.

Just because you don't believe in the reality of satan and his fallen angels doesn't mean it isn't true.

So back to square one I see.

This was discussed in another thread, but how about having Jesus and Lucifer being both side of the same coin ?

Conspiracy of the Century...Jesus and Lucifer, One and the Same!

We don't need freedom of religion, we need freedom FROM religion. It doesn't matter a pound of beans as to what or who you believe.

Religious dogma has been the cause of wars for countless centuries continuing today. No folks, not buying into either argument.

originally posted by: silo13

originally posted by: Soulece

originally posted by: visitedbythem
From your behavior and name calling over the totally unimportant looks of Yeshua, it appears that you worship another being.

originally posted by: Soulece

originally posted by: visitedbythem
Yeshua doesn't look like the picture that portrayed. He was a homely man. It is all nonsense. Deception. Satan is filled with hatred, because he wasn't made in the image of God Like we are. Thus the jealousy. Angelic are not like us. They cause war, Not the Living God.
They had a choice, and they made the bed. They wish to discredit God and are very good at doing so.

Now it is your turn to make your choice. Choose wisely

The only deception here is your crazy ass thinks he looked like a homely man, like one of us would. Only, if thats the case, he did not make us in his image because neanderthals do not look like us. Only some similarities that eventually EVOLVED into what we are now. Try to be logical and don't feed in what you're told by others. Think for yourself.

And for the record, before you go there, I am a believer in God. Humans arent capable of getting what he/she/it looks like. Its all interpretation. If they claim they have the answer, they are wrong.

The irony of some christians is that they claim if the other person doesnt believe in their god, they dont believe in THE god. Thats hilarious. And also moronic. I can 100% confirm, I do not believe in satan or any evil being. What do you say to that? I 100% claim you will say "you're lying". Well, I'm not. Your move.

You can 100% confirm YOU don't believe in satan or any evil being. Sure.

Just because you don't believe in the reality of satan and his fallen angels doesn't mean it isn't true.

So back to square one I see.

Ok. By your logic, just cuz you say you believe in jesus, doesnt mean you do. Maybe you think you do but maybe you dont. Fun logic sir.
Also, I believe satan to be real. But it aint my god.

a reply to: Ghostsinthefog
I feel that it is important to point out the mistake often made in confusing the words; satan, Lucifer and "the Devil".

As far as I can tell, by looking up these word's etymology, they are quite different. Originally, years back, I did this using Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, a nice clickable version can be found here. Lucifer, as you mention, is Latin for the bringer of light, or Luciferous. The word satan is a descriptive word, a verb meaning adversary, and should never be capitalized. As far as I know the word Devil, which does seem to describe an individual, is not found in the old testament. Perhaps someone could prove me wrong on this.

Using your example;

2 Corinthians 11:14 "No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light."

we can look this up in Strong's concordance. Scroll down to verse 14 and click on the word SatanaV and you will end up with the definition of satan, "the accuser", often mistaken, in my opinion, as "the Devil". There are also clickable links to the locations of where this word is used.
I have spent enough time on that site that satisfied my own curiosity which lead me to conclude that satan is a verb (adversary), Lucifer is the bringer of light that referred to the planet Venus and "the Devil" is a fairly recent invention by the Catholic church, much like the place called hell.

Of course this has been my opinion for many years and not very convincing an argument in and of itself. In reading this thread I did a search and found this link which I thought very interesting.

Dr. Michael S. Heiser

Although English Bibles continue the practice of capitalizing the word “satan” in passages like Job 1 and 2, those passage do not have a specific individual in mind — that is, “satan” in these passages should *not* be understood as a proper personal name.

Without exception, the word “satan” in Job occurs *with* the article. This indicates quite clearly that “satan” is *not* a personal name. It is generic, and means “the adversary”.

I suppose I am experiencing a bit of confirmation bias yet the question is a good one. Are we confusing the words satan and Lucifer and where did the name Devil originate?

interesting theory. if it is all ture and we have been tricked. i think the real god would understand that we were just calling him the wrong name and we were trying to the the right thing..

originally posted by: silo13
a reply to: Yvhmer

I confess, I wrote that piece on purpose. As my ex would say: I am the Satan's orator. But it is not meant to hurt you. It is meant to empower you.

By the blood of of Christ my Lord and Savior, the Savior of the All Mankind remove this evil one's attention from me. You've warned your children to converse with devils whos intent it is to bring down with the original lie of enlightening, in raising up. I will not be tempted by the original sin, words of death. I am a Child Of God and to no other but my Lord will I Believe and Rely on. You are the One who raised me up Lord. The One who protects me and keeps me safe. You are the One I yearn to know more of every night, every day, in every moment by staying in Your word, spending time with the Holy Spirit, my Comforter. In coming to You in prayer and Thanksgiving. Save me Lord from anything that doesn't Glorify You and You only. In Christ's precious name. Amen.

I just decanted a bottle of Merlot when I came across your incantation. I am not surprised. Really, AMEN? This is most probably Egyptian for Amun Ra. And you will reason, if it is in the Nt, I will use it. Well, Sometimes certain expressions are copied because they seem cool and then become pack and parcel of a way of saying things. Who could have known that the name of Amun Re would be invoked all over the world. Don't you find it amazing that amen is contained in the bible (Deuteronomy- suspicious; Psalms - sucpiscious) but the word for the river in Egypt is never to be found? No .... it is not NILE but HAPI. And actually, the name is not even Egypt. That is the consequence of a Greek geographer Herodotus. Egypt's real name is Misr, as it is now officially, but always has been. And Moses is not a Hebrew name but an Egyptian one.

A pity you would not allow your consciousness be raised. I understand why the people are put off by such responses, because it brings an inquisitive mind not further down the road. And clearly, Judaism, Christendom, Islam are all deeply influenced by "Egyptian" Religious thought.

So, this type of response is not the sole ownership of a Christian Cult. You can see the same in people who belong to commercial, political, personal or any other Christian cult, of whatever stripe, be it Christian, Islamic, Judaic, or whatever stripe, and who have their assumptions challenged. It is simply amazing and a spectacle to see how the chemicals are rushing through the veins signaling a flight or fight response. And how reasonable critical thinking is stopped in it's tracks by buzzwords. This is programming "de pur sang".

Thank you Silo13 for your performance and to all who had the same response without committing it to this board. I do hope, after such an encounter, you will be able to sleep tonight.

a reply to: Soulece

Yeah, it's kind of a dog chasing a tail between us - neither can 'prove' anything to the other as the other isn't going to listen.

I'm sorry I didn't read your post correctly. Sorry about that. I thought you said you didn't believe in satan.

I'll read better next time.

Take care.

Oh, and I'm a woman, just saying.

a reply to: Devino

Devil is not invented by the CC but was written into the hotly debated an by narrow margin admitted to the biblical canon: Revelation. Wriiten allegedly by John, the apostle on the Island of patmos, he equated satan, devil and the original serpent as that figure was grabbed and thrown into the lake of fire, and to never return from that place. A bit like the Terminator in T2.

"Ironically, the only mentions of Lucifer in the New Testament — and there are three of them — refer to Jesus, Kelly said. "Jesus is called 'Lucifer' or 'the morning star' because he represents a new beginning."

Read more at: phys.org...

This is from a book written by Henry Ansgar Kelly, Ucla Professor and a former Jesuit.

This would make Jesus, the morningstar, Lucifer. And satan ..... well ... more or less like Jeff Sessions alone a little busier ....;-)

This has all beem a fascinating thread. Thankyou fir everyones thoughts. Im still reading through them all

originally posted by: Soulece

originally posted by: visitedbythem
Yeshua doesn't look like the picture that portrayed. He was a homely man. It is all nonsense. Deception. Satan is filled with hatred, because he wasn't made in the image of God Like we are. Thus the jealousy. Angelic are not like us. They cause war, Not the Living God.
They had a choice, and they made the bed. They wish to discredit God and are very good at doing so.

Now it is your turn to make your choice. Choose wisely

The only deception here is your crazy ass thinks he looked like a homely man, like one of us would. Only, if thats the case, he did not make us in his image because neanderthals do not look like us. Only some similarities that eventually EVOLVED into what we are now. Try to be logical and don't feed in what you're told by others. Think for yourself.

And for the record, before you go there, I am a believer in God. Humans arent capable of getting what he/she/it looks like. Its all interpretation. If they claim they have the answer, they are wrong.

Not sure what you're suggesting about neanderthals here.

Ill just say that the caveman, ape like portrayal of them is funny. In fact, although most caucasians and some asians have little neanderthal genetics, some have up to 5%, but even more interesting, a significant amount of caucasians have alleles for skin tone and hair color from neanderthal predecessors.

They had cranial capacities 20 to 30% larger than modern humans, particularly in the occipital or rear section of the brain (sight processing). Coupled with larger eyes, who knows what they saw. In fact, they may very well have appeared to have had elongated skulls naturally, as we have seen some cultures try to mimic.

Take a gander at Amud 1, he was 6 feet tall and had a cranial capacity of 1720cc, as compared to homo sapiens of his time that averaged 5'5 height and cranial capacities around 1300cc.

Amud 1 skull image