Oklahoma City police officer shoots, kills man holding metal pipe

a reply to: Gryphon66

Generally LEO is to be one level anove the assailant. We were told in my agency if they bring fists you use a stick(baton), if they bring a stick ( ie any weapon that is not a gun) you bring a gun and obviously if they have a gun you have a gun. And onviously all of those are contigent upon the situation. Bit UOF is called a continuum for a reason, as fast as you can go from no force needed to lethal force needed you are to deescalate dependent upon the situation as well. That is why shamrock said it is broad

a reply to: DAVID64

If you shoot and kill a person with a pipe who has not threatened you and has not attempted to strike you and you are not a cop, you will be prosecuted. No doubt in my mind. Particularly if you are black and the person you shot is not. Why should we hold our citizens to a higher standard than our police officers? There were two cops with numerous lethal and non-lethal weapons between them vs. one man with a pipe. The only option is to kill the guy? Really? I'm sick of people jumping through hoops to defend our public officials. They should do better than the unwashed masses, not worse.

a reply to: TobyFlenderson

Again you dont know all the facts as none of us were there we dont know what the guys disposition was whether he was threatening or not , we do know the police had a right to be there( investigating a hit and run), we do know the guy had a weapon( metal pipe), we do know he was advancing towards the officers, we do know he had the pipe raised, and we do know both officers felt the need to have thei weapons drawn(1 taser, 1 firearm), we do know they felt threatened enough to discahrge their weapons at the same time. So far all that adds up to justified shooting

a reply to: norhoc

UOF?

It's an acronym, but I'm not familiar with it. Translation, please?

a reply to: norhoc

I like your logic. We don't know all the facts so they must be justified.

a reply to: seagull

Unidentified Object in Flight

a reply to: Gryphon66

By narrowing it down a bit.

Each situation is unique unto itself. This event isn't going to be that event save in the most general of terms. No one explanation/opinion is going to fit every event.

That's why it's a bit too broad to be able to answer. Though you did narrow it down in your next one...

Being in the position that allows the use lethal force doesn't mean it must be used.

a reply to: Gryphon66

It's not a cut and dried answer, unfortunately. Cops are people and their opinions can vary just as much as any other particular group of people. Hell, I've disagreed with other members of ATS (that are LE) about certain incidents. Some cops will justify any and every use of force incident. Some justify almost none. The rest of us fall somewhere in between.

That being said? In general, no. Because, using several comments from previous pages as an example, we hear that killings by law enforcement are on the rise. Well, no, they're not. We hear that killings of unarmed people are on the rise. Again, no, they're not. So when we can look at statistics and see that what the media says isn't really an accurate representation, it's hard to get bent out of shape about the story the media has made up.

Do we feel bad when a bad shooting happens? Sure, most of us do. We Monday-morning quarterback things just like everybody else does. But most folks don't buy into what the media is selling, because it's not the reality of things.

a reply to: seagull

Use Of Force

a reply to: seagull

a reply to: Shamrock6

a reply to: norhoc

Thanks to all three of you. Yes, this was exactly what I was looking for. I wasn't aware that it was standard to be "one level above" the potential assailant. That makes some sense.

I guess what I need to say, which I'm sure gets lost in translation many times around here, is that I have the utmost respect for all the good LEOs out there: thank you for what you all do.

You are needed in our society, and I and most here, are not willing (or capable at this point) to fulfill that need.

Given that, understand that a lot of us are concerned because we can't parse out the good cops from "the bad cops" very well. Because of that, to many of us, an armed LEO represents ... potential death, regardless of what we are doing.

I know that's not the case every time, and I know that you have to deal with the dregs of our society on a daily basis.

My ideal situation is that we counter the forces in this situation, as in all situations, that are desperately trying to drive wedges between us all.

Thanks again.

a reply to: TobyFlenderson

The facts as we know them now it is a clean shoot, obviously if more facts come out that show they were in the wrong i will be the first to say it, but as of now it appears clean

a reply to: norhoc

Again, I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

a reply to: Gryphon66

Great post brother, as I have said before I will be right there with you when i believe a cop acted stupidly or criminally. I don’t give cops, military, or anyone blanket support. I have worked with guys that are complete power tripping fools and have told them flat out. Police are like any other group of people , you have good and bad intersparsed. And if info comes out these two acted criminally i will be one saying charge them. I just don’t see it yet

a reply to: TobyFlenderson

Ok cool i am good with that

a reply to: Krakatoa>>.. I think it depends on the training the officers have and then... just how much they want to pull that trigger. Out of fear or out of some other impulse. Locally we just had a police officer who confronted a Spanish man who had stabbed his neighbor to death. He was holding the knife and a beer and was tazered. Then additional responding officers had to subdue him because he was not cooperative and resisted arrest. I was also reading about a case that happened in a Starbucks. A man tried to rob it with a gun and a knife( not sure if the gun was real) and a good Samaritan bystander attacked the robber. The Samaritan got stabbed but managed to get the knife and stabbed the robber 17 times. I first heard this case when the robber's dad called a legal help radio talk show and wanted to know how he could get legal help for his son to sue the Samaritan. No criminal charges were filed against the Samaritan. Now the robber is suing the Samaritan claiming excessive force. Adrenaline takes over and clouds your judgement and should we give some allowance for that?

If someone has a pipe, and you have a taser, I'd say heck.. try the taser first? I'd like to know how far away he was when they shot him. You have to be you know.. right next to someone to smack him with a pipe. Taser.. wait.. still comes towards you.. then more force as needed.

It's obvious someone screwed up. One cop uses a taser.. one uses a gun.. they can't both be right. And killing first has become the new normal.. it's very sad, and very wrong. I'd say the taser cop used common sense and stayed calm, and gun-cop panicked.

a reply to: fleabit



You know that because you were there?

a reply to: fleabit




abcnews.go.com...


The stun gun did not work because only one of the prongs hit Sanchez, Citty said, adding that, in training, officers working in pairs are taught to first use a stun gun, but the second officer provides cover with a gun in case the stun gun doesn't work. -- There is your answer as to why one had a stun gun and the other a firearm, also the stun gun did not work as only one prong hit the guy and even then he did not stop .

The officers didn't hear neighbors at the scene yelling to them that Sanchez couldn't hear them, Mathews said. -- as I have been saying, I doubt they heard multiple people shouting things at them

"As he started going toward these officers with a pipe in his hand, the officers discharged their weapons," Mathews said.-- not just sitting on his porch as some on here have said

originally posted by: norhoc
a reply to: Krakatoa



Was he blind and stupid? Did he not see their guns drawn? or mouths yelling orders?

According to several witnesses, multiple neighbors were shouting at the police "He can't hear you! He is Deaf!"

So the question might be, were the officers deaf?

As for the pipe, neighbors that were interviewed said the deaf boy liked to take walks in the neighborhood and regularly carried a pipe to ward off some stray dogs that have apparently been roaming the area.