Matt 10.5 (Only the house of Israel can be saved)

"5These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. 6Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. 7As you go, preach this message: ‘The kingdom of heaven is near.’ 8Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy,drive out demons. Freely you have received, freely give. 9Do not take along any gold or silver or copper in your belts; 10take no bag for the journey, or extra tunic, or sandals or a staff; for the worker is worth his keep. "

www.biblegateway.com...

What did Christ mean here "Do not go among the Gentiles" and "Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel." Did he mean ignore the gentile's? And the lost sheep of Israel? The was only Judea at this time. Was he saying go find the lost 10 tribes? Is the "gospel" only for the house of Israel?

I think it is clear..........Only the house of Israel is to be saved. Period.

[edit on 10-2-2005 by DrHoracid]

[edit on 10-2-2005 by DrHoracid]

gentiles = non jews...

i think Christ ment to save (preech to) the ones (Jews) responsible for His death...

the Jews were GREATLY misguided, they didn't even think He was the son of God...

IF Jesus ONLY wanted Jews to be saved, why does the entire rest of the Bible talk of saving everyone but this one line says something different...

just my 2 cents...

Originally posted by DrHoracid
“Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. 6Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. 7As you go, preach this message: ‘The kingdom of heaven is near.’ 8Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy,drive out demons.

I think he's saying, go to those who have not already been saved and preach to them about Jesus and his message.

EDIT: dictionary.reference.com: proselytize

[edit on 10-2-2005 by AceOfBase]

Originally posted by they see ALL
gentiles = non jews...

i think Christ ment to save (preech to) the ones (Jews) responsible for His death...

the Jews were GREATLY misguided, they didn't even think He was the son of God...

IF Jesus ONLY wanted Jews to be saved, why does the entire rest of the Bible talk of saving everyone but this one line says something different...

just my 2 cents...

Actually it means non-hebrew...............

Originally posted by DrHoracid
Actually it means non-hebrew...............

hebrews = jews...

gentiles = non-jews...

what are you going to say about the other things i said???

Originally posted by they see ALL

Originally posted by DrHoracid
Actually it means non-hebrew...............

hebrews = jews...

gentiles = non-jews...

what are you going to say about the other things i said???

Juda is but one tribe of Israel, they and some Levits kept the covanant. There are 10 lost tribes. Saying Christ "meant" something is silly. Christ knew exactly what he was saying.

This one line was the specfic instructions on "who" to preach the gospel to.

[edit on 10-2-2005 by DrHoracid]

Actually, at the time, Jesus wanted the gospel preached only to the Jews during His life on earth. Just for that time, later, in Matt 28:19, Mark 16:15, and Acts 1:8. He specifically instructed His Apostles to remain in Jerusalem after His ascension until the Holy Spirit came into His disciples at the day of Pentecost, then they were empowered to preach the gospel to all nations.

The Bible is clear that the gospel was preached first to the Jew, and then to the Gentile. We Gentiles are the wild branch that was grafted into the vine of the Spiritual Jews who accepted and, in the mind of God, the Jews and the Gentiles who are His disciples are now one flock, not two. We are the Spiritual house of Israel.

Just as the first birth is physical and the second birth is spiritual (John 3:6), the House of Israel was physical in the Old Testament and is Spiritual in the New Testament after the Holy Spirit was given into the world. It is true that Jesus original goal was to save only the Jews, but when the Jews rejected Him, the offering of salvation was opened to the entire world (parable Luke 14:8-24). The Jews who rejected Him were broken off (Matt 24:37-38) from the vine and a "wild branch" was grafted in. John 10:16 speaks clearly of two different flocks of sheep and that they shall be in one fold through their common belief in Jesus as their Shepherd.

These are pretty fundamental precepts set out by Jesus in His ministry on the earth. I am surprised that you did not catch this. Unless you were putting out a strawman to get feedback?

[edit on 10-2-2005 by managerie]

Originally posted by DrHoracid


Actually it means non-hebrew...............

If you knew, or thought you knew...why did you ask the question, becuase you are telling us you are special in some why!?

EDIT...Oh, I see you have edited to it to add

"I think it is clear..........Only the house of Israel is to be saved. Period."



[edit on 2/10/2005 by LadyV]

Originally posted by managerie
Actually, at the time, Jesus wanted the gospel preached only to the Jews during His life on earth. Just for that time, later, in Matt 28:19, Mark 16:15, and Acts 1:8. He specifically instructed His Apostles to remain in Jerusalem after His ascension until the Holy Spirit came into His disciples at the day of Pentecost, then they were empowered to preach the gospel to all nations.

The Bible is clear that the gospel was preached first to the Jew, and then to the Gentile. We Gentiles are the wild branch that was grafted into the vine of the Spiritual Jews who accepted and, in the mind of God, the Jews and the Gentiles who are His disciples are now one flock, not two. We are the Spiritual house of Israel.

Just as the first birth is physical and the second birth is spiritual (John 3:6), the House of Israel was physical in the Old Testament and is Spiritual in the New Testament after the Holy Spirit was given into the world. It is true that Jesus original goal was to save only the Jews, but when the Jews rejected Him, the offering of salvation was opened to the entire world (parable Luke 14:8-24). The Jews who rejected Him were broken off (Matt 24:37-38) from the vine and a "wild branch" was grafted in. John 10:16 speaks clearly of two different flocks of sheep and that they shall be in one fold through their common belief in Jesus as their Shepherd.

These are pretty fundamental precepts set out by Jesus in His ministry on the earth. I am surprised that you did not catch this. Unless you were putting out a strawman to get feedback?

[edit on 10-2-2005 by managerie]

So where did he "change" his instructions in Matt 10.5?

Seems it is still in place in Rev 11.1

"1I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, “Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, and count the worshipers there. 2But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months. "

I guess that you are only going to take one scripture and apply it to all of theology huh? All I can say is that there is more than just one reference in the Bible that goes into who will be "saved"...

John 10:9 - I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

John 3:17 - For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Acts 16:30 - and brought them out and said, "Men, what must I do to be saved?" Acts 16:31 - And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Romans 10:9 - because, if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 10:10 - For man believes with his heart and so is justified, and he confesses with his lips and so is saved.

Romans 10:13 - For, "every one who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved."

1 Timothy 2:3 - This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 1 Timothy 2:4 - who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Not one of these verses include or exclude a certain group of people who will be saved.

Originally posted by mpeake
I guess that you are only going to take one scripture and apply it to all of theology huh? All I can say is that there is more than just one reference in the Bible that goes into who will be "saved"...

John 10:9 - I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

John 3:17 - For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Acts 16:30 - and brought them out and said, "Men, what must I do to be saved?" Acts 16:31 - And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Romans 10:9 - because, if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 10:10 - For man believes with his heart and so is justified, and he confesses with his lips and so is saved.

Romans 10:13 - For, "every one who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved."

1 Timothy 2:3 - This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 1 Timothy 2:4 - who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Not one of these verses include or exclude a certain group of people who will be saved.

Because it was a "given" that Christ was speaking to the house if Israel. The 10 lost tirbes that were dispersed to the entire planet.

here quote yourself:

Saying Christ "meant" something is silly. Christ knew exactly what he was saying.

i think it can apply to you thinking that it was a "given" that Christ was speaking to the house of Israel

Originally posted by pao
here quote yourself:

Saying Christ "meant" something is silly. Christ knew exactly what he was saying.

i think it can apply to you thinking that it was a "given" that Christ was speaking to the house of Israel

Excellent point!

Originally posted by managerie
The Bible is clear that the gospel was preached first to the Jew, and then to the Gentile.

not true. Jesus came to be the King of the jews. the jews had already understood and then destroyed the truth of God's gift. their hard, self-loving hearts corrupted the word that had been given to them and then they followed through by not recognizing their God. while the jews rejected Him as king ultimately, the gentiles would fall and worship. He did not offer Himself to the gentiles in word, but came as King of the jews in order to fulfill prophecy. His crucifixion was no surprise. it was ordained since before time and written of hundreds of years earlier. in fact we see in chapter 10 of john that the jews He was speaking to, although of the correct lineage, were not His sheep and thusly would not hear Him. but He continued to argue with them. now this is perplexing at first. but only if you believe man is a spiritually free agent. by Christ's own words we see that they are of the lineage, but UNABLE to believe. this is our first hint that Israel has always been spiritual and that Jesus's purpose was much deeper than being a "prize for those who choose it."

Originally posted by managerie
Just as the first birth is physical and the second birth is spiritual (John 3:6), the House of Israel was physical in the Old Testament and is Spiritual in the New Testament after the Holy Spirit was given into the world. It is true that Jesus original goal was to save only the Jews, but when the Jews rejected Him, the offering of salvation was opened to the entire world (parable Luke 14:8-24). The Jews who rejected Him were broken off (Matt 24:37-38) from the vine and a "wild branch" was grafted in.

read through hebrews 11 for 2 minutes and you will see that "Israel" has always been spiritual. but the covenant was and should still be practiced by lineage in a symbolic way. this is why most reformed christians baptize their children. to honor symbolically the covenant a believer has with God which will be passed to their children. does this guarantee salvation? only as much as circumcision did for the jews! romans 9 clearly shows that Jacob was loved and Esau hated. were they not of the same blood? same circumcision? twins in fact? but they were yet different.

Originally posted by managerie
John 10:16 speaks clearly of two different flocks of sheep and that they shall be in one fold through their common belief in Jesus as their Shepherd.

there may be two flocks, but only one body. we are not united by our choosing of God, but rather the faith that is in us. and FAITH IS A GIFT. a SPIRITUAL gift.

Originally posted by mpeake
All I can say is that there is more than just one reference in the Bible that goes into who will be "saved"...
John 10:9 - I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
John 3:17 - For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Acts 16:30 - and brought them out and said, "Men, what must I do to be saved?" Acts 16:31 - And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."
Romans 10:9 - because, if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Romans 10:10 - For man believes with his heart and so is justified, and he confesses with his lips and so is saved.
Romans 10:13 - For, "every one who calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved."
1 Timothy 2:3 - This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 1 Timothy 2:4 - who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Not one of these verses include or exclude a certain group of people who will be saved.

your final statement is inherently incorrect. we can see in john 10 that only those who are of His sheep will be saved.

what the modern church has thrown out is that the "calling" is given to all, but not all are chosen. read the parable of the wedding. many are called, but few are chosen. in fact, there are even going to be those who seemingly come at the calling and yet are not prepared and get cast away.

let me further expose poor understanding by pulling 1 tim 2:3 back into context. at this point, paul is urging believers to pray for those in power. he elaborates by indicating that God desires all men to be saved.

so then, it either means that God is a failure in that not all people are saved, or that in context, the "all" indicated here implicates that the calling is for and gift of faith will be given to "all kinds" of men. whether rich, poor, etc.





back to the original post

Originally posted by DrHoracid
www.biblegateway.com...

What did Christ mean here "Do not go among the Gentiles" and "Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel." Did he mean ignore the gentile's? And the lost sheep of Israel? The was only Judea at this time. Was he saying go find the lost 10 tribes? Is the "gospel" only for the house of Israel?

again, this was for the sake of fulfilling prophecies. the disciples were later sent directly to the gentiles. but let's figure what was said here more definitely anyway.

this edict was not necessarilly an exclusion of gentiles. it did not say "ignore gentiles everywhere you go!" rather, it said, "do not seek out the gentiles." again, this was to fulfill prophecy, since later on the gentiles in fact persued Jesus as foretold.

mal 1
isa 55, 60, 65

daved
btw, sorry for errors in this post, this was done quickly.

do you also have to not have silver gold or copper in your belts or carry extra tunics and sandles in order to be saved?

data please

"again, this was for the sake of fulfilling prophecies. the disciples were later sent directly to the gentiles."

How about some scripture?

Christ preached to the gentile woman at the well - a non-jew.

Also, chances are, you have hebrew blood in you. Of the lost 10 tribes, they spread out to many places and had lots of babies.

Christ was saying to preach to the jews / hebrews because they were greatly mis-guided...

hell, they killed him...

and after they preach to the jews / hebrews, they can preach to everyone else...

John chapter 4 : The samaritins believed
Acts Peter and the net.

Prophecy about saving the gentiles starts back in genesis

Gen 12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will show thee:
Gen 12:2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:
Gen 12:3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Isa 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

Jer 16:19 O LORD, my strength and my stronghold, my refuge in the day of trouble, to you shall the nations come from the ends of the earth and say: "Our fathers have inherited nothing but lies, worthless things in which there is no profit.
Jer 16:20 Can man make for himself gods? Such are not gods!"
Jer 16:21 "Therefore, behold, I will make them know, this once I will make them know my power and my might, and they shall know that my name is the LORD."

Mal 1:11 For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts.

Act 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:

Act 13:47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.

Luk 2:30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,
Luk 2:31 Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people;
Luk 2:32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.
Luk 2:33 And Joseph and his mother marveled at those things which were spoken of him.


Gal 3:8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed

Originally posted by DrHoracid

I think it is clear..........Only the house of Israel is to be saved. Period.

So are you saying ONLY the jews can be saved?

Is everyone else going to hell?

This will be a good one to debate too but you are STILL dodging THIS one DrHoracid

www.abovetopsecret.com...

let the games begin

[edit on 10-2-2005 by Amuk]