The Messiah Drama

Firstly, I want to express my sorrow for all the people who are hurting because of the flood. It is nothing to do with punishment. It is everything to do with geography, physics and human behavior (certain aspects of climate change). If anyone can point me to a charity online that really will get the money to the poor in Texas then I would gladly donate. I am a friend of America. I have great respect for America and its diversity of culture.

Onto TOPIC:

If I could impart to you what grabs me about Christ is that He is the only figure who the Universe has let play out the Messiah role in our reality. We must all admit that the Hebrew Torah is an inter linking construction over a period of thousands of years that is obviously beyond the scope of even one culture to keep in arrangement and check with all the references there contained. I have studied literature at University and the Torah and New Testament are both literary phenomenons unmatched in all of human history. I am so gob smacked that I believe the Bible to be supernaturally protected. In comparison The Koran does not reference the same and as a literary work it is much more transparent in terms of source, source borrowing appropriation of Hebrew Torah and development on a theme. The Old and New Covenant are literally bridged by the blood of Christ as He said it would be. It is as He said; The Way.

The drama of The Messiah has taken place on this earth. Christ performed it to the dreadful conclusion that was His sacrifice and shedding of His blood for His Vision from G_D and the establishment of His Kingdom of The New Covenant. It was clear all along from the request of Abraham to sacrifice his son for G_D, that G_D was obviously testing and not wanting human sacrifice. That is why I know that Abraham did humanity a big favour by his willingess to even sacrifice his son to G_D. What greater sacrifice could a patriarch of that time have made than to give up his own as an offering? As we understand it was not required. Man's blood was not required. However, blood was required at that time. It started with a pyre on The Mount and the REPLACEMENT for Isaac by an animal. This requirement evolved to the altar of The Temple. The Temple still demanded the blood to pay for us, but animal blood was accepted as both a sign of things to come and the remembrance that it was in place of Isaac. The Hebrews used animals as our G-D instructed, but the Pagans sacrificed humans, often in huge numbers as we know from Bible and archeological sources. Universally blood was required to pay for humans, both animal and human.

This was Christ's gift to humanity (one of many, of course). He took away the requirement. He took away the need for us to shed blood to pay for us. He paid for us all in full that dreadful Day; that is why it is called the ransom. Of course, Christ didn't want it to be that way, but it was the only way and Christ had known it all along. Christ could have not fulfilled His mission, but the fact that He did has earned Him the Status He has. There has been no need for us to shed blood to pay for us since then, neither human or animal. The curse was lifted and the ransom paid.

The altar was always marked for this. The High Priest's Office, by the established Law of his office, was always going to have to be the one to make the decision. There was thousands of years of animal blood all over that office and that place, that EXACT spot on The Mount where Isaac had once be bound on the pyre then released. From Aaron's beginning the High priest was the one to perform the sprinkling of blood over the altar and the people. His office was such that He would one day have to sprinkle the blood of the Hebrew Messiah over the Hebrew and Gentile people, literally world wide and down through the ages.

The drama has been played out. All the Angels in Heaven and Earth know about it and are under the authority of this. It is the weirdest of weird ways to business, folks, but nothing about this earth is normal or mundane. I'm not some ultra straight Bible basher. I am a naughty boy who tokes and makes electronic dance music and can be a bit kinky sometimes, too, but I have utter Respect for Jesus Christ. He is my Messiah. I will never ever feel any embarrassment about saying that out very loud in public. I have thrashed about year after year in His fist like a horrid little venomous adder, but He owns my ass.

a reply to: Revolution9

If I could impart to you what grabs me about Christ is that He is the only figure who the Universe has let play out the Messiah role in our reality.

Thats not what he intended.

Super heroes exist in every culture, genre and society.

Super heroes, like comic book Super Man, like Supremacists and their Fuhrer, Military 'heroes' (war does not make one Great), and yes, religion has its supreme beings...

Putting people on pedestals, worshipping them as heroes, is not whats intended for Human kind.

Everyone is created equal...

a reply to: Revolution9

Rather than God sending his only son I think this is a more plausible explanation of the origins of the mythology:

Caesar's Messiah: The Roman Conspiracy to Invent Jesus: Flavian Signature Edition

Most Christians do what Christians do and ignore things like this. But argument made by Atwill is extremely compelling that the Gospels were written by Flavius Josephus.

From the first man God's plan was set in motion. He knew the need for the atonement and who would be the sacrificial lamb. But he also knew a world who would be capable of killing a perfect being would also have difficulty in knowing Him when he came. When I say that I am referring to the many who came before him and since who said they were him.

All the early ordinances of the temple, sacrifices, celebrations and the like were set to be a foreshadowing of His Coming, His Mission and Sacrifice. In truth I am set at aw when I contemplate the fullness of how so many things pointed to who the Messiah would be.
Abraham's story with Issac was a foreshadow of a father giving His son as God would give His. From this we get a sense of what the Father God of us all felt sacrificing His only begotten. He was a perfect being, He was like the Father, He didn't even need earth life for His eternal progression like we do. But He came, He taught, He healed and He loved and He died and Came forth. We in this mortal state cannot even see the full extent or depth of the meaning of that sacrifice. He has finished His work in mortality. He has walked triumphantly from the grave. Next He will come in His glory and the signs of this coming are unfolding on the world daily.
What's left is what you have indicated, for us to choose who we will follow. The God of love, or the confusion of the world.
You have read the scriptures, as you look close you can see Jesus in every part of history, and you can see the attempts by a loving Father to show us who He would be when He came, who he was when he walked with us, and who He will be through the end of our world and the eternities to come.
As it has been written so many times, "He who has eyes will see. He who has ears will hear"

You say that blood was required to "pay" for us, to "pay" for humans. Why blood, and as payment for what? For sin? I can see that, I guess....I suppose if someone sins, and then kill an animal and sprinkle the blood of it on an altar, I guess it shows God that you are sorry. (???????) But why blood? What does offering blood give to God? Does it replace something that humans took?

I'm not being facetious, I really am trying to understand. No one has ever explained to me why blood is required....I've asked, and read, and haven't found an explanation...

a reply to: KansasGirl

It sucks having a brain. Welcome to the club.

originally posted by: KansasGirl
You say that blood was required to "pay" for us, to "pay" for humans. Why blood, and as payment for what? For sin? I can see that, I guess....I suppose if someone sins, and then kill an animal and sprinkle the blood of it on an altar, I guess it shows God that you are sorry. (???????) But why blood? What does offering blood give to God? Does it replace something that humans took?

I'm not being facetious, I really am trying to understand. No one has ever explained to me why blood is required....I've asked, and read, and haven't found an explanation...

As the bible says.....life is in the blood....no blood ..... no life. No life = death

Payment made in blood..... by Christ for those who accept and follow Christ.

originally posted by: dfnj2015
a reply to: Revolution9

Rather than God sending his only son I think this is a more plausible explanation of the origins of the mythology:

Caesar's Messiah: The Roman Conspiracy to Invent Jesus: Flavian Signature Edition

Most Christians do what Christians do and ignore things like this. But argument made by Atwill is extremely compelling that the Gospels were written by Flavius Josephus.

Said by a Islamic worshipper or is it an atheist..... I forget what you beliefs are but definitely not Christian.

Keep on hating....

originally posted by: DeathSlayer

originally posted by: KansasGirl
You say that blood was required to "pay" for us, to "pay" for humans. Why blood, and as payment for what? For sin? I can see that, I guess....I suppose if someone sins, and then kill an animal and sprinkle the blood of it on an altar, I guess it shows God that you are sorry. (???????) But why blood? What does offering blood give to God? Does it replace something that humans took?

I'm not being facetious, I really am trying to understand. No one has ever explained to me why blood is required....I've asked, and read, and haven't found an explanation...

As the bible says.....life is in the blood....no blood ..... no life. No life = death

Payment made in blood..... by Christ for those who accept and follow Christ.

Got it. But what about the animal sacrifices in the Old Testsment? Why was animal blood needed up be offered? In exchange for what? Your explanation says, then, that if the animals hadn't been offered on the altar, then....no life. So, everyone would then die? I appreciate your answer, but it doesn't really explain anything, not if you apply it to actual circumstances.

a reply to: KansasGirl
I answered part of this question in my thread "Atonement in the Old Testament";

I’ve been coming to the conclusion that what this God really wants from his people is that they should be offering their own lives.
The essence of sin is that they have not been offering themselves. They have been holding something back, acting in disobedience.
So the purpose of the blood-sacrifice is to remedy that omission by presenting a symbol of the self-offering.
“We understand that we owe you our lives. Here are some lives, as a token of our debt.”
A visible offering of some kind is necessary, because this is a culture in which everything has to be acted out.
The action is expressing a recognition of their previous failure, and an implied promise to do better.

Whereas what Christ does is a genuine and complete self-offering, and that is the key.

originally posted by: KansasGirl

originally posted by: DeathSlayer

originally posted by: KansasGirl
You say that blood was required to "pay" for us, to "pay" for humans. Why blood, and as payment for what? For sin? I can see that, I guess....I suppose if someone sins, and then kill an animal and sprinkle the blood of it on an altar, I guess it shows God that you are sorry. (???????) But why blood? What does offering blood give to God? Does it replace something that humans took?

I'm not being facetious, I really am trying to understand. No one has ever explained to me why blood is required....I've asked, and read, and haven't found an explanation...

As the bible says.....life is in the blood....no blood ..... no life. No life = death

Payment made in blood..... by Christ for those who accept and follow Christ.

Got it. But what about the animal sacrifices in the Old Testsment? Why was animal blood needed up be offered? In exchange for what? Your explanation says, then, that if the animals hadn't been offered on the altar, then....no life. So, everyone would then die? I appreciate your answer, but it doesn't really explain anything, not if you apply it to actual circumstances.

I can see you really want to know.

Let those who are enlightened see this for what it is.

Animal sacrifices go way way back ..... before the Israelites - wasn't Cain and Able properly trained by their parents to give up a portion of their crops and livestock as an "offer" to God? Since the beginning of time an offer was made to God - an offer of thanks. The reason Cain's offer of fruits of the land was rejected and Abel's offer of animal sacrifice was accepted had nothing to do with animal sacrifice but Cain's attitude and where his heart laid on this subject and then became bitter once he saw how God accepted Abel offer and rejected Cain's. God even spoke to Cain about this and warned him to change his heart but he refused.

Offerings to God continue but something new came to mankind and it was disobedience and disrespect to God .... what we call sin today..... Now that sin comes into play, the game changes.... a price for sin must be paid and this price is high for it requires blood (life) another words a life for a life (can you understand) and the sacrificed animals blood being poured out on the altar and NOT on the ground during worship to the creator will turn his anger away from that sinner and not only forgive but FORGET that person's sin. Blessings will come to the sinner and he will prosper (meaning not die) but our creator became weary of those sacrifices, he could see it lost its original meaning (here is where one part of prophecy comes into play) animal blood no longer pays for sin .... here is where Christ comes into action by coming to earth to be the LAST and ONLY sacrifice to God, a payment so why a payment? Christ was involved with making mankind, "Lets make man in our image" He was there with his father at time of Genesis. Payment for sin was paid on the cross when he spilled out his blood and died on the cross as a man. Jesus wilfully gave up his life as a sacrifice - one reason why is also known as "The slain lamb". This sacrifice is payment ONLY for those who accept this sacrifice for themselves meaning..... you are a disciple of Christ - you sins are covered upon repentance and while walking with Christ (spiritually) will keep you on the narrow path to the Father. For some it is an easy task for others we make it too hard for ourselves - you see we expect to see everything in the physical world as truth and for the most we do - but many can not see or feel the other side - the invisible side to the human eye - the spiritual worlds. The murder of Christ covers all sin but not for everyone - those who reject Christ and REFUSE to change are NOT covered under the covenant of Christ - these people have no spiritual protection from God leaving them open to spiritual attacks.

In the beginning of the OT after the Israelites were released from Egypt and priest were assigned (Book of Leviticus) is when animal sacrifices became LAW for those who sinned including times of both both temples in Jerusalem, priests were the ones who slaughtered animals, poured its blood onto the alter, then took off certain parts of the meat for themselves and their families for they were allowed to eat parts of the sacrifice and burnt the rest of the animal in a large fire ... dedicating the animal WHICH someone had given to a priest for their sin. A perfect animal with no blemish, the best of the best, this was acceptable to our God at those times, as a SIGN of repentance and that sign was blood.

As we know the importance of blood, we forget what blood does to a living being.... we breathe properly due to proper amounts of oxygen, allowing the heart and brain to properly function... etc..... it does not take a rocket scientist to figure this one out. I cut off an arm or a leg and you will survive UNLESS you bleed out..... so body/animal parts do not cut it ..... back then when violence was on every corner..... seeing someone dead and burning at the local dump site was a common everyday way of life.... so pouring animal blood on an altar was never an offensive or disgusting sight.

Being human and walking around in my skin - I have my own issues one of them being patience ..... how I wish I could be a calm and patient man - how I LET my emotions sometimes control me and not wisdom. Failing to slow down and pray for advice and WAIT for God's answer which comes in dreams and visions. Emotions are false and fake yet we follow them - an evil effective trick that works since the Garden of Eden.

I have sinned, I am a sinner, and yet I praise the Father, Son ,and Holy Spirit knowing my sins are covered from the blood of Christ when I REPENT. Sins are NOT covered until God see you really are repentive abd see the error of your sins.

Let it be known in heaven and hell that I am a disciple and follower of Christ.

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: KansasGirl
I answered part of this question in my thread "Atonement in the Old Testament";

I’ve been coming to the conclusion that what this God really wants from his people is that they should be offering their own lives.
The essence of sin is that they have not been offering themselves. They have been holding something back, acting in disobedience.
So the purpose of the blood-sacrifice is to remedy that omission by presenting a symbol of the self-offering.
“We understand that we owe you our lives. Here are some lives, as a token of our debt.”
A visible offering of some kind is necessary, because this is a culture in which everything has to be acted out.
The action is expressing a recognition of their previous failure, and an implied promise to do better.

Whereas what Christ does is a genuine and complete self-offering, and that is the key.

Thank you, DISRAELI. I appreciate your response! And I do like that explanation- I can make sense out of that. It's logical and understandable.

What bothers me though, is that it's your interpretation. Any of these explanations that are readers' own interpretations is what bothers me. Does it say, anywhere in the Old or New Testament, why the blood sacrifices were required? If so, could you point me toward that? And I'll say again, I'm not trying to be contrary or an a-hole; I really do want to understand this. It's made no sense to me, all of my life. I was brought up in the church and I've never received an answer that is based on what GOD says. I want to know.

a reply to: KansasGirl
Since the Bible doesn't give an explicit explanation for the demand, then we have no choice. If we want to understand the reason, then we have to look for an explanation by inference, one that will be in keeping with what we know about God from the rest of the Bible.
You cannot get an explanation based solely on what God says if God refuses to say it.

originally posted by: DeathSlayer

originally posted by: KansasGirl

originally posted by: DeathSlayer

originally posted by: KansasGirl
You say that blood was required to "pay" for us, to "pay" for humans. Why blood, and as payment for what? For sin? I can see that, I guess....I suppose if someone sins, and then kill an animal and sprinkle the blood of it on an altar, I guess it shows God that you are sorry. (???????) But why blood? What does offering blood give to God? Does it replace something that humans took?

I'm not being facetious, I really am trying to understand. No one has ever explained to me why blood is required....I've asked, and read, and haven't found an explanation...

As the bible says.....life is in the blood....no blood ..... no life. No life = death

Payment made in blood..... by Christ for those who accept and follow Christ.

Got it. But what about the animal sacrifices in the Old Testsment? Why was animal blood needed up be offered? In exchange for what? Your explanation says, then, that if the animals hadn't been offered on the altar, then....no life. So, everyone would then die? I appreciate your answer, but it doesn't really explain anything, not if you apply it to actual circumstances.

I can see you really want to know.

Let those who are enlightened see this for what it is.

Animal sacrifices go way way back ..... before the Israelites - wasn't Cain and Able properly trained by their parents to give up a portion of their crops and livestock as an "offer" to God? Since the beginning of time an offer was made to God - an offer of thanks. The reason Cain's offer of fruits of the land was rejected and Abel's offer of animal sacrifice was accepted had nothing to do with animal sacrifice but Cain's attitude and where his heart laid on this subject and then became bitter once he saw how God accepted Abel offer and rejected Cain's. God even spoke to Cain about this and warned him to change his heart but he refused.

Offerings to God continue but something new came to mankind and it was disobedience and disrespect to God .... what we call sin today..... Now that sin comes into play, the game changes.... a price for sin must be paid and this price is high for it requires blood (life) another words a life for a life (can you understand) and the sacrificed animals blood being poured out on the altar and NOT on the ground during worship to the creator will turn his anger away from that sinner and not only forgive but FORGET that person's sin. Blessings will come to the sinner and he will prosper (meaning not die) but our creator became weary of those sacrifices, he could see it lost its original meaning (here is where one part of prophecy comes into play) animal blood no longer pays for sin .... here is where Christ comes into action by coming to earth to be the LAST and ONLY sacrifice to God, a payment so why a payment? Christ was involved with making mankind, "Lets make man in our image" He was there with his father at time of Genesis. Payment for sin was paid on the cross when he spilled out his blood and died on the cross as a man. Jesus wilfully gave up his life as a sacrifice - one reason why is also known as "The slain lamb". This sacrifice is payment ONLY for those who accept this sacrifice for themselves meaning..... you are a disciple of Christ - you sins are covered upon repentance and while walking with Christ (spiritually) will keep you on the narrow path to the Father. For some it is an easy task for others we make it too hard for ourselves - you see we expect to see everything in the physical world as truth and for the most we do - but many can not see or feel the other side - the invisible side to the human eye - the spiritual worlds. The murder of Christ covers all sin but not for everyone - those who reject Christ and REFUSE to change are NOT covered under the covenant of Christ - these people have no spiritual protection from God leaving them open to spiritual attacks.

In the beginning of the OT after the Israelites were released from Egypt and priest were assigned (Book of Leviticus) is when animal sacrifices became LAW for those who sinned including times of both both temples in Jerusalem, priests were the ones who slaughtered animals, poured its blood onto the alter, then took off certain parts of the meat for themselves and their families for they were allowed to eat parts of the sacrifice and burnt the rest of the animal in a large fire ... dedicating the animal WHICH someone had given to a priest for their sin. A perfect animal with no blemish, the best of the best, this was acceptable to our God at those times, as a SIGN of repentance and that sign was blood.

As we know the importance of blood, we forget what blood does to a living being.... we breathe properly due to proper amounts of oxygen, allowing the heart and brain to properly function... etc..... it does not take a rocket scientist to figure this one out. I cut off an arm or a leg and you will survive UNLESS you bleed out..... so body/animal parts do not cut it ..... back then when violence was on every corner..... seeing someone dead and burning at the local dump site was a common everyday way of life.... so pouring animal blood on an altar was never an offensive or disgusting sight.

Being human and walking around in my skin - I have my own issues one of them being patience ..... how I wish I could be a calm and patient man - how I LET my emotions sometimes control me and not wisdom. Failing to slow down and pray for advice and WAIT for God's answer which comes in dreams and visions. Emotions are false and fake yet we follow them - an evil effective trick that works since the Garden of Eden.

I have sinned, I am a sinner, and yet I praise the Father, Son ,and Holy Spirit knowing my sins are covered from the blood of Christ when I REPENT. Sins are NOT covered until God see you really are repentive abd see the error of your sins.

Let it be known in heaven and hell that I am a disciple and follower of Christ.

Thank you for this detailed explanation!