9/11 myths debunked . . .

Originally posted by HowardRoark

The trades were made by someone with foreknowledge of the attacks. It is entirely plausible that someone in the al-queda organization anticipated the damage the attacks would do to the financial status of the airlines and attempted to profit from them. If so, then so what? What does this have to do with anything anyway?

It's also entirely possible that irregular American investors with foreknowledge of the attacks did exactly the same thing.

Who profited and how is one of the most significant unaswered questions. Following the information and following the money is more revealing than debating the structural performance of buildings of dubious quality under stress.

Originally posted by syntaxer

For this theory to be true, it implies a vast/ready source of oxygen allowing the temperature of the internal fire to increase. The only ready available source of oxygen would be the large impact cavity left by the plane impact, thus the results would draw out inferno fires burning at 1800F due to its limitless supply O2.

Have you ever been at the top of a building close to that height in NYC? I have and the is almost a endless strong wind that high up in NYC. The wind would pretty much act as giant bellows on a fire inside thanks to huge hole blown into the towers.





[edit on 14-2-2005 by ShadowXIX]

Originally posted by ShadowXIX

Originally posted by syntaxer

For this theory to be true, it implies a vast/ready source of oxygen allowing the temperature of the internal fire to increase. The only ready available source of oxygen would be the large impact cavity left by the plane impact, thus the results would draw out inferno fires burning at 1800F due to its limitless supply O2.

Have you ever been at the top of a building close to that height in NYC? I have and the is almost a endless strong wind that high up in NYC. The wind would pretty much act as giant bellows on a fire inside thanks to huge hole blown into the towers.





[edit on 14-2-2005 by ShadowXIX]

yeah but the fires were producin black smoke, suggesting the fire was lacking oxygen.....then there is that photo of that person right in the spot where one of the planes hit the tower...and there fire is not intense at all

Originally posted by Ungoliath

yeah but the fires were producin black smoke, suggesting the fire was lacking oxygen.....then there is that photo of that person right in the spot where one of the planes hit the tower...and there fire is not intense at all

First of all, the color of the smoke in not a reliable indicator of the temperature of the fire in the core area. Have you ever heard of the “Stack effect?”

Did you see how fast those fires were spreading up the building?

Secondly, do you have any idea how big the WTC floors were? They were huge! Assuming that the plane piled up debris like cubicles, paper, etc. in front of it, and that the core walls wee breached, you would have had hot spots in a number of areas.

I dont think you can use the color of smoke as a factor.Burning plastics could do that,and surely there was enough of that in the areas burned.Carpet fiber,authentic simulated wood desks and other such materials can produce black smoke.
The only thing you can determine heat from is obviously being there,but the flame color.By seeing a white in color explosion or flame,you can safely determine the fire is very hot.

Just prior to the collapse, molten aluminum (from the exterior façade) was observed flowing out the building. This means two things. One the interior temperature had to be at lease 660.37 C, and the interior floor slabs were starting to shift and drop.

Thank you Howard for an educational adventure. I was trained on an Aircraft carrier to fight fires and this article brought back information I understood well. To bad a lot of people bought books on the subject of Government cover ups........
As usual the liberals came out from the wood works on this one. Good job Howard of explaining it to other who had questions. Even you ask experts in the fields of what happens, those who do not have a clue write books to sell to liberals. Mind games are here to stay!
Keep it up, the liberals are losing ground on this one.

Golden Shellback...............................King Neptune Rex Royal Court Award
This award is given from a veteran of the Naval Fleet of the Royal Order of Shellbacks
Let it be know to all men and women on this day February 16, 2005, That Howard has recieved the Golden Mermaid. Tickel her tummy she laughs.

Ps
Could someone tell me what vote is being cast? Still kinda new here and have no idea. Thanks

[edit on 15-2-2005 by Goldenshellback]

Originally posted by HowardRoark
Just prior to the collapse, molten aluminum (from the exterior façade) was observed flowing out the building. This means two things. One the interior temperature had to be at lease 660.37 C, and the interior floor slabs were starting to shift and drop.

this same data illustrates to me the possibility of preplanned thermite reactions being set off. nice spin.

Originally posted by twitchy
Ah roark, don't make me come over here man... Guys, Roark and I have been through this one on another thread already on this subject, so I am going to post a link to it here and be done with it, accept the following wealth of information provided in regards to the World Trade Center. Please read it, then let roark dance around some physics and try to impress you.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Hummmm, prove it with records and statements or another link! There has been many misqotes of individuals that has been proven Twitchy. You must have more back up than officers claimed to have said this. First records of these officers who spoke to verify claim status of military and a statement from these people of said so called quotes. Then the fireman records to verify of existing at station 10. None of these things have been proven sorry to say. Just on words and possible misqotes stirring again. You have to prove beyond a shadow of a dout that this reporter is on the up and up. Theories again of the people who did not investigate it more closely, only assumptions at this point. You would have a hard time disproving this one because it has documents of the debris with photo that it was not a military plane. You really did not read all of the research done that took it 4 years to complete. A couple of things are still being looked into, but the findings have strong evidence to debunk all theories set out in books by so called people who really did not have the credentials to explain the theory they imposed on this nation in detail. Sorry.

Golden Shellback.................................King Neptune Rex Royal Court now in session



[edit on 15-2-2005 by Goldenshellback]

Originally posted by Montana

Originally posted by MaskedAvatar

Farewell to you.

And to you.

At this time I find myself having acted in a way I find unacceptable. I do not get involved in shouting matches here, and have always found them offensive. I let myself get drawn into one and I apologize to all who are reading and participating in this thread for my unacceptable behavior.

Howardroark, please accept my apologies for hijacking your thread. I'll leave now, let the conversation continue.

Hmm waht is your motive for this apology? I dont trust people who cave in this easilly!

Follow the link and the series of instructions to view the windsor tower fire in Spain
A similarly constructed building burned for hour after hour but did not suddenly decide to pulverise its inner steel structure and concrete outer walls despite an evident inferno. It ended up looking how you think it should
Use your eyes and sense, Howard et al.
www.rumormillnews.com...

Originally posted by dh
Follow the link and the series of instructions to view the windsor tower fire in Spain
A similarly constructed building burned for hour after hour but did not suddenly decide to pulverise its inner steel structure and concrete outer walls despite an evident inferno. It ended up looking how you think it should
Use your eyes and sense, Howard et al.
www.rumormillnews.com...

It has been debunked for a few reasons,dh. Look at the crane on top of the building where the smoke is, now the building is not complete. Construction of a building does not come with the crane. It is not a antenna. No planes were mentioned and the upper floors did not have all that is needed to supply the fire like paper, desks, and etc. This was a centeralize fire. They have to turn off the gas as well when fire fighter are trying to keep the fire undercontrol in buildings or homes. The gas was turned off for this building and it is in the code when fighting fires. I can tell that some have never fought fires. On 9/11 I have not yet read, nor heard that the gas line was shut off among the koas when these planes hit. In the image you provided to compare with 9/11 did not have the fuel from an air craft to help the fire spread fast on the upper floors. On these tall building is a current always whipping around, that is plenty of oxygen to keep those blazes burning. Just in case you never been on top of a tall building. Also in this image they said partial floor had collaped, but it did not have some added weight from the air liner either embedde through this tower. If you would of read the report by which Roark provided. It states that the fuel line for these building in the center where a small tank feeds from a tank in the basement. If a fire did penetrate the fuel line, what can happen next. Have you ever blown out a candle and see that trail of smoke, take a match and put it close and the candle lights again. That is fumes. Still I have not seen a report that this shut off valve was turned off because koas of smoke and debri were flying and no time to do it as the fire fighter tried to get who they could out. It happened that fast. Your image is just a fire that could be undercontrol, they did not have chuncks of objects falling on them, or a black out of smoke and dust that covered blocks. Remember that scene that everyone near the twin towers were covered head to foot when it before crashing down. I once had a web site and member of the sight fight team. I knew three children from that site who perished at the towers. They were their checking it out, a day with a neighbour. The twin towers were the exception on 9/11.
Remeber they said explosion, think about that small tank fuel feeding off the main tank in the basement. The lines runs through the building as well. This is debunk sorry to say. It did not have the elements like the twin towers did. Oh, the twin towers were complete, this building is still being put together.

Golden Shellback....................................................Rest

PS
How many tons does a air liner jet weigh?


[edit on 15-2-2005 by Goldenshellback]

[edit on 15-2-2005 by Goldenshellback]

[edit on 15-2-2005 by Goldenshellback]

Originally posted by dh
Follow the link and the series of instructions to view the windsor tower fire in Spain
A similarly constructed building burned for hour after hour but did not suddenly decide to pulverise its inner steel structure and concrete outer walls despite an evident inferno. It ended up looking how you think it should
Use your eyes and sense, Howard et al.
www.rumormillnews.com...

dh, i know you haven't bee around too much latley so you might have mised this post on the differences between the two buildings.

messeage board
bit.ch...

93 audio 9/11
www.milaircomms.com...

Family will listen to audio of flight 93 black box recording.
www.cbsnews.com...

Flight 11/betty ong
www.thememoryhole.org...

two terrorist on list of forensic.
www.science-spirit.org...


I spent the last few days researching the so called cover-up. Talk about garbage to wade through on the subject of their were no terrorist on the 4 flights, they used autopilot to hit WTC. Flight 11, this is the flight that the arab thought he was talking to the passenger over the intercom to stay where you are. The other pilots of other aircrafts heard them as well as the ground controls. Black boxes were recoverd from all the site, but one (New York). I could not believe people could not except the fact that flight 77 hit the pentagon. One can see all the pieces laying on the ground and document by witnesses on the ground. One lady cars was side swiped before the liner hit the pentagon. I think in another thread someone claimed that no arabs were on these flights, and where is two black boxes. They got debunked by me. Might say that their theory they follow had been torched to the point of no return. I know they will continue to cry cover-up and everything was stagged. I read articles that many people were misquoted when they talked with reporters and those who wrote books about 9/11. I left some links, sorry if they are repeats.

Golden Shellback............................King Neptune Rex Royal Court Judged...........No cover up, only in liberals fantasy!



[edit on 18-2-2005 by Goldenshellback]

[edit on 18-2-2005 by Goldenshellback]

[edit on 18-2-2005 by Goldenshellback]

Wow look at all that fire weakening the steel structure;



And look at this, can you say controlled demolition?



[edit on 18/2/2005 by ANOK]

Goldenshellback

First link doesnt help your opinion much.The same argument has gone on here,no need to link to another board that has gone through the same thing.It does nothing for you.

Second link:
At 00:45 they ask if they heard right,if that was screaming,,,what screaming?I hear nothing but them.If they wanted to say this was going on,why not include the entire transmission?I hear no screaming.
At 01:14 - 01:21 you can hear 'someone' but it is very hard to hear what they are saying.I think I hear someone who speakes very good english and the word bomb.Does not sound like a middle eastern at all.Thats just my opinion though.
At 02:04 I can hear words but only understand 'this is your capitan' 'bomb on board' 'demands' - thats all.Somewhat of an accent this time.

No denying this is real.Does not say that it wasnt shot down rather than crash as we have been told.

Third link:
What does this prove?

Fourth link:
Guess you missed my link a few days ago.Read this one first then move on to read this one.

Fifth link:
You need to read about DNA and HEAT.
I will post/quote what I have already said in the Pentagon thread,last page:

Also,many say all passengers were identified by means of DNA.Again,cant happen.Because DNA is destroyed by high temperatures. At room and body temperatures DNA in tissue will be broken down by bacteria. DNA in bone and hair will be stable at these temperatures.
As we know though,the intense fire that took place was entirely to hot for bone or hair to survive.
Modern crematories burn at a temperature of 2000+ degrees Fahrenheit, with an afterburner temperature of 1600 degrees Fahrenheit. This high temperature causes the body to combust and consume itself.
The fire at the Pentagon was a little over 3,000 degrees.
No human body can withstand that and nothing will be left.
So I want to know,just how did they do DNA testing?

Now on to your own words:
I spent the last few days researching the so called cover-up.
Not very well dude.That should have only taken a few hours at most seeing as it is all here at this board.

, they used autopilot to hit WTC.
Care to show a link proving this? It may have been,just would like to see an article.

I could not believe people could not except the fact that flight 77 hit the pentagon. One can see all the pieces laying on the ground and document by witnesses on the ground.
ALL the pieces? You mean a few scraps and other debris that has been said to come from 'other' aircraft?

One lady cars was side swiped before the liner hit the pentagon.
Do you realize the damage that would have been done if that REALLY happened? A large 757 side swipes a small car isnt going to just 'push it aside'
Please show a link saying this happened.You did save all your links in your 'few day' quest to find the truth right?

I think in another thread someone claimed that no arabs were on these flights, and where is two black boxes. They got debunked by me.
Ok first off,you THINK but at the same time,you debunked them?
Where is this post.After all,you are debating this in this thread as well.

You didnt do a very good job on this as in many of your posts.You have debunked nothing nor put anyone in their place.You have only babbled old findings and posted your thoughts and findings with no links.
Only thing you have done well is seem to follow Howard around and be his little lap dog.

edit to specify who I am replying to.

[edit on 18-2-2005 by SMR]

Sorry, SMR, and everyone, I was in a hurry when I posted this. Only had a short time to post. Now I can reclarify somethings as time is permitted this time.

Originally posted by SMR
First link doesnt help your opinion much.The same argument has gone on here,no need to link to another board that has gone through the same thing.It does nothing for you.

Well, I thought it was a good read. Sorry it did not interest you none.

Originally posted by SMR
Second link:
At 00:45 they ask if they heard right,if that was screaming,,,what screaming?I hear nothing but them.If they wanted to say this was going on,why not include the entire transmission?I hear no screaming.
At 01:14 - 01:21 you can hear 'someone' but it is very hard to hear what they are saying.I think I hear someone who speakes very good english and the word bomb.Does not sound like a middle eastern at all.Thats just my opinion though.
At 02:04 I can hear words but only understand 'this is your capitan' 'bomb on board' 'demands' - thats all.Somewhat of an accent this time.

Their were other flights in the area and pilots of other flights had visual on flight 93 and listening. These other pilots were confirming what they heard.

Originally posted by SMR
No denying this is real.Does not say that it wasnt shot down rather than crash as we have been told.

At the end of the recording the other pilots confirmed black smoke on the ground when Cleveland air control lost them on screen.

Third link:
What does this prove?

It proves that the family who lost loved ones will hear the audio in the cockpit. Usually they have to wait after the hearing of 9/11. But the FBI are letting them listen to the tape.

Fourth link:
Guess you missed my link a few days ago.Read this one first then move on to read this one.

I have read them during the search.

Fifth link:
You need to read about DNA and HEAT.
I will post/quote what I have already said in the Pentagon thread,last page:

Also,many say all passengers were identified by means of DNA.Again,cant happen.Because DNA is destroyed by high temperatures. At room and body temperatures DNA in tissue will be broken down by bacteria. DNA in bone and hair will be stable at these temperatures.
As we know though,the intense fire that took place was entirely to hot for bone or hair to survive.
Modern crematories burn at a temperature of 2000+ degrees Fahrenheit, with an afterburner temperature of 1600 degrees Fahrenheit. This high temperature causes the body to combust and consume itself.
The fire at the Pentagon was a little over 3,000 degrees.
No human body can withstand that and nothing will be left.
So I want to know,just how did they do DNA testing?

You did not read the article! New techniques have been developed with software and trying to find other means, even if the bones are very badly composed. Read it again, may be you did not understand the concept.

Now on to your own words:
I spent the last few days researching the so called cover-up.
Not very well dude.That should have only taken a few hours at most seeing as it is all here at this board.

I went on the net to rubble through the garabe myself to find what is going on. I believe that the rule did not imply that I had to search it here on ATS.

, they used autopilot to hit WTC.
Care to show a link proving this? It may have been,just would like to see an article.

I meant to say is that liberals were saying the government was using autopilot to crash into the TWC. I do not believe this was done. Sorry, I was in a hurry when I posted.

ALL the pieces? You mean a few scraps and other debris that has been said to come from 'other' aircraft?

A link to a site that you can read and decide for yourself.Yes, I believe flight 77 hit the pentagon. Sorry, I mislead you to say this. That what happens when I post fast.
www.christian-patriots.us...

One lady cars was side swiped before the liner hit the pentagon.
Do you realize the damage that would have been done if that REALLY happened? A large 757 side swipes a small car isnt going to just 'push it aside'
Please show a link saying this happened.You did save all your links in your 'few day' quest to find the truth right?

It was a link I did not keep, because it would of been possible of repeat. But you have to look if you want. The lady was ok but shaken.

I think in another thread someone claimed that no arabs were on these flights, and where is two black boxes. They got debunked by me.
Ok first off,you THINK but at the same time,you debunked them?

Where is this post.After all,you are debating this in this thread as well.

Miss print on my part typing fast. I believe arabs were on board all the flights. Others have said we are missing two black boxes, I am still trying to sort out if all black boxes were recovered.

You didnt do a very good job on this as in many of your posts.You have debunked nothing nor put anyone in their place.You have only babbled old findings and posted your thoughts and findings with no links.
Only thing you have done well is seem to follow Howard around and be his little lap dog.

Hum, why would I want to put someone in their place. It does no good because they will continue to think their way. Babbled? I did not know I had to place links on every post I make. Opinions of others do not require links. Sorry you feel like you do, you do not have to read my posts.

This is a written dialog of flight 93. If anyone cares to read it, not skim over it.
www.npr.org...
www.nationmaster.com...

To everyone on this thread. I am sorry that my post are not interesting nor informative to be on these boards. My opinion are not worth much according to what SMR has just confirm in writing.
This is the end of transmittion as I will not return to this site.
Good luck to all on the threads. My thoughts do not matter, just links to sources.

Golden Shellback...........................................

Originally posted by SMR
As we know though,the intense fire that took place was entirely to hot for bone or hair to survive.
Modern crematories burn at a temperature of 2000+ degrees Fahrenheit, with an afterburner temperature of 1600 degrees Fahrenheit. This high temperature causes the body to combust and consume itself.
The fire at the Pentagon was a little over 3,000 degrees.

Interesting. So the fire at the WTC could not have exceeded 250 degrees* C, (482 F), yet the fire at the Pentagon was 3000 degrees F (1648 C).

[sarcasm] that is amazing [/sarcasm]












*yes SMR, I know you didn't make that claim. That's not the point.



[edit on 18-2-2005 by HowardRoark]

The 10 hijackers have never been included in the official death toll.

WTC
onenews.nzoom.com...

Flight 93 cockpit recorder and thoughts of one of the family members. But could only say little because the prosecution of the case wants it to be use in the court of law.
www.post-gazette.com...

News from NIST. New technique of forensic that will lead to better identification of people remains. Please read through I know it can be boring at times. The information is there.
www.nist.gov...

USA today link. Family confirm heroism on flight 93. I mean I have read many bs links. I have not read anyone had given some of these links.
www.usatoday.com...

I am just providing links about those who believe there was no terrorist on all four flights on 9/11, proof by forensic. Plus recorders that the government let families of Flight 93 listen too. This is after that other link I post. If this is a repeat, sorry (I have stated on the next to last and someone did not read, just skimmed over what I had put up for links and not read. That person know he/she is on this thread.) The matter of rumors about the cover up of 9/11 has no merits far as I am concern. We have lost people by terrorist, plain and simple. Many people have been misquoted and really do not want to say much to media or anyone else who are planning to write books and so forth.

Golden Shellback...................................King Neptune Rex Royal Court ruled................Terrorist were on those flights.

PS
Those who cry cover up, shut up! You believe what you want, maggots. Cause I leave this final time to your inner thoughts of paranioa and sweet dreams. Veterans do it better and smarter with down to earth common sense. Liberals makes me sick!

Bye ATS!

Seeing as you said you were never coming back, twice,,,,,see ya in a couple days
So now you resort to name calling because a few people have different opinions than you.brilliant Too bad you dont really stay away

HOWARD:
I believe I made a post to a similar reply,will look in the other threads for it.Cant be too hard can it Only like 50 gazillion 9/11 threads hahaha

I'll have a look over at what GOLDEN CHILD has put in his brilliant post later on.
Who wants to to take a wild guess? I got dibbs saying he is 15