OP/ED: Hugo Chavez Dismantles Democracy in Venezuela

Originally posted by The Vagabond
Megaquad: start at the root of the problem. The root of the problem was not a hostile Castro. That is patently absurd. Did he just wake up one morning and say to himself, "I'll start a hopeless conflict with my bigger stronger neighbor even if it kills my nation."? NO! He took a hardline on Cuban defense and allied with the Soviets so that we wouldn't topple his government and install puppets. Let's just cast aside the ridiculous notion that Castro ever intended to initiate hostilities with the USA. That leaves us with only one thing to consider: Were we justified in refraining from mutually beneficial trade and consequently bringing harm to innocent Cuban civilians as well as perpetuating an unnecessary conflict with our neighbor, just because that neighbor was different from us?

This coming from a Cuban-American, and one that still has family in Cuba suffering because of that communist sob, btw there is at least one other Cuban-American here that can testify, it is castro the one killing Cubans not the US....

castro exports the majority of the food and other products from Cuba instead of feeding the people....he does this to stay rich, and to keep his hold on the country.

Originally posted by soficrow

Chavez pulled Venezuela out of a scummy pit of poverty. Now Venezuelans have a democratic voice in their government, and a real future. Of course other South American countries want the same thing...

I beg your pardon...democratic voice?.....you mean this will come from the same man that glorifies castro and wants to follow his footsteps?.....

Yeah....democratic voice.....

Originally posted by General Zapata

Originally posted by djohnsto77
IMHO you don't have to be "fair and balanced" when dealing with communism/socialism.

so...you don't mind biased reporting when it comes to certain topics but not others? Should the US administration just buy out fox news and appoint Murdoch as minister of propaganda, or is that a little too honest for the people to handle?

It failed miserably in the Soviet Union and the socialism-lite practiced in Western Europe nowadays seems to be headed on the same path. What Chavez is doing seems much closer to totalitarian Soviet communism than even the most socialist regimes or parties in Western Europe.

I've already said this many times, but I will say it again: the soviet union was NOT a communist state. It basically amounted to Hitler's germany: a social NATIONALIST system. Educate yourself a little. Go read the doctrine of libertarian communism and then tell me if the USSR or even Cuba for that matter is a model of libertarian communism.

Semantics....we could use the same semantics to say that no country in the world is truly socialist, no country in the world is truly democratic...no country in the world is truly a republic..... Hey...no country in the world is really a dictatorship...I mean, some people, at least those who work for the tyrant, are mostly free to do whatever they want...so why call them a dictatorship right?.....

In communism, the state (government) owns all property, in socialism there is no private ownership of land, and limited ownership of property, the state also pretty much has control over all the industries of a country.... so, please do tell me how is it so good that a few people in power can have the power to own all the land and distribute it as they see fit among a nation....and at the whim of the State (the dictator) the people that were living in the government controlled land have to leave if the state thinks the land can be used for the good of the nation, nomatter what the government want to build there...... isn't this exactly what so many in here are against?....



---edited for errors---

[edit on 7-2-2005 by Muaddib]

"Like I said, who says America capitalism is a success? It hasn't crashed and burned but it's allowing the ruin of many good hard working people. How would you like it if somebody who thought they had a better idea decided to invade us and rape us for resources under the shallow excuse that they were protecting us from our self-destructive economic policies? "

Oh, I thought this was happening.....only the people with the plan rose from amoung us......

I have a different take on this for yas to consider.

the businesses and government were happy to walk hand in hand and share the spoils of the workers, until the workers becames to danged poor that they had to start giving a large portion back to them just to keep them alive. Which they didn't want to do, so, the people starved, and well blah, blah.......Now, they have learned that a least some of their profits need to go to sustain the people, and the lords of earth are bickering with each other just who should be the one sustaining them, the government, or the corporations. sounds like the government won the argument, they'll take from the rich (corporations included) and give it to the po0r, disempowering the long time friend, now turned enemy in the process. They'll make sure that the sla....or I mean masses at least have enough to scrape by as long as the memory of the lesson learned stays in their brain--that dead people produce sqaut!!---then they'll play the same game again!!!

I think the two capitalism, socialism is just parts of the same path, and that path leads in the circle, and the average joe isn't even in the game! Since, in the end play, they will take what you have accumulated and redistribute it and then start all over again!-----

Originally posted by The Vagabond
Were we justified in refraining from mutually beneficial trade and consequently bringing harm to innocent Cuban civilians as well as perpetuating an unnecessary conflict with our neighbor, just because that neighbor was different from us?

No, it's because neighbor is a communist dictator who is oppressing its population. Instead of seeing the real oppressor here, you claim that role belongs to US.

You state that it is a death-worthy trespass to deny people's ability to profit. Where exactly is this written? Should one man be allowed to dam up the flow of water to another man's property if it will turn a profit for him?

Depends to whom water belongs. If I bought it, it's mine.

Societies which don't allow free enterprise, market-oriented economy and ownership of property are destined to failure, without those rights it is impossible to feed the population. Socialism doesn't work, it is an inefficient way of producing since when there is no competition, producers have no incentives to improve themselves or even work in many cases. It has been proven on all places from China, Vietnam, Yugoslavia to poor Latin American countries.

I do not believe that an enlightened society can allow necessities to become profitable industries. They should be public works performed at cost for the benefit of all.

Benefit to all? As in, you take goods I produce and give it to some lazy bum? This sounds nice, but it is sad you haven't noticed that socialism failed everywhere, it is inherently inferior to free market-oriented economy in every possible aspect, it is worse for poor, rich, old, young. North Korea is about 15 more poor than South Korea, this is a clear indication of superiority of capitalism. Ratio is similar for any other 2 countries you wish to compare.

Pure capitalism dictates that a man can't eat, can't keep his children warm, can't have a roof over his head or clothes on his back unless he can scrounge up sufficient tribute for his landlord. The common man in a capitalist nation is not a citizen in the ideal sense of the word. He is a serf to corporate feudal lords.

This is some heavy brainwashing straight from communist party textbooks. Fortunately, it has been disproved in reality.
So I ask you, what exactly is common worker in communist country? He is a slave of state, forever destined to same job, frozen in time, without any hope and choice of improving his life. Do you know what is the environment in which workers in such countries are working compared to those in developed countries? Let me give you a hint: in communism buildings are old and rarely renewed or maintained both interior and exterior.
Further, what you call Feudal Lords are productive companies which produce superior high-quality goods, which are made by well-payed employees who ALWAYS have the choice to choose a different jobs, invest, create their own company and do whatever they want from their life.

Wherever capitalism lived, there came enormous wealth for all segments of society and smaller amounts of poverty than in any other system. This is a fact, you can check it from any sources you like. Even your Chinese comrades have adopted capitalism.

Countries like Ireland, Hong Kong, Singapore (and there are many more examples) are one of the most capitalist countries in the world and places where living standard is extremely high and poverty is low, for all classes of people. As I said, you and every other socialist have been disproved. It is sad people like you value ideological intentions more than its results in reality.

We have weaknesses just as socialist economies do. Nobody has got a perfect system. Here in America you have to be afraid that your land lord will put you out in the streets, or that your sick child will not be treated. In a socialist nation centralized management makes mistakes disasterous and you give up hopes of ever becoming wealthy. A lot of people would gladly make this trade. I'd work harder for fewer luxuries if it meant the necessities would always be there.

This is cowardly attitude, I suggest you come to some former communist country, like Poland or ex. Yugoslavia, or Vietnam. You would be terrified what buildings look like in those countries, and how pleasant is childhood of children which are not able to get basic necessities widely used in developed world. Socialism provides you with what some people in government think you need, capitalism provides you with what you want.

What you call "luxuries" is wealth necessary to sustain huge populations, it is freedom which belongs to every man on Earth. Not irrational "right" to get something for nothing, but individual responsibility to take control of your destiny and achieve your potential without being slowed down by anyone else with enormous taxes. Remember, people who scream "free housing" and "free healthcare" want to have money taken from pocket of somebody else's hard earned money, this is called theft, but government's have the ability to take it legally.

3. Peace with hostile nations is really easy to understand actually. Suppose that you had a gun, and you were walking around in a place where everybody else had a gun too. You and somebody else get into an arguement over something stupid that is not worth a gunfight. Do you A. shoot him. B. Threaten him and hope he backs down instead of shooting you. C. Find common ground and compromise, even if it means not getting your way 100%.

D. Call USA to shoot him and free his oppressed underlings. Afterwards, his oppressed underlings are individuals who prosper and live a life where they are free to pursue happiness. In your scenario, they still remain oppressed while man with whom you got into argument is continuing to support other oppressors near him.


[edit on 7-2-2005 by Megaquad]

Originally posted by JoeDoaks

America will not allow ANY government to succeed in the Americas that is NOT pro-American.

This folks, is an historical fact.

Yep exactly!

And the quote from washington on the subject: "Winning a mayority of the vote doesn't make your government legitimate"

Originally posted by Megaquad
Socialism has already been proven countless times on all continents to be the most terrible evil that has ever scorched mankind. It is why people in Africa are starving.

DEAD WRONG!!! People in Africa are starving because of capitalism!!! And Capitalism is what caused Guatemalans to suffer for decades. The CIA sponsored a coup to bring down a similar president as Chavez. All because he took away the land from United fruit corporation (that they weren't even using!!!) to give to the natives.

It's the same situation here.

And you don't want to know how arrogant upper class Venezuelians are.

Originally posted by djohnsto77

Originally posted by Gools
The American utopia of everyone living like Donald Trump or Bill Gates is the real sham. It only happens at the expense of everyone else.

So it's better to have everyone dirt poor like Cuba rather than have some rich, a vast middle class and some poor like the U.S.? With a per capita GDP of $30,200 (1997) the U.S. system is clearly better for its citizens than Cuba with a per capita GDP of $1,540.

And what's the percentage of wealth distribution is there in the U.S.? What is the ever increasing poverty rate???

Just tuning in to the debate about the wealth issue..

Some simple lessons here:

1 the poor are here to feed the rich..

2 The new world made and maintains the 3rd world

3 The re-distribution of wealth ( or what the "war on poverty" SHOULD be called, but sadly doesnt contain the word "war" so is not suitable for idealogial control purposes) is JUST NOT ON THE CAPITALIST AGENDA! Not at all, not even the teensiest little bit. All this spiel about elliviating poverty is about feelgood factor at home, nothing more than a symbolic jesture.

Why?

See lesson 1.


I posted a nice article about Sweden managing to narrow its poverty gap with approx then same figures as the UK... but of course the gap has widened in the UK coz were good little capitalists un;like those crazy poor loving Swedes.

[edit on 7/2/2005 by Corinthas]

Worthless posts that are so far off the mark, they take your breath away for the sheer ignorance?
Venezuela Commie Dictatorship? Exactly when was the last time you saw open elections, constitutions and recall-votes-of-confidence in one of those!?!
The fault rest clearly on American shoulders regarding overthrows and political highjinx.
Google Venezuela & Juan Otto Reich for some more info.

Bout time, if my post is so worthless than why do many people agree and why has it sparked a debate?

Obviously you have nothing meaningful to add otherwise you would have done so rather than to resort to slanderous personal attacks.

I LOVE THIS,
Well love is such a strong word...
I really think this is what venezuela needs... and it will help America in many ways, without hurting the american citizens... but it will hurt our governments plans

It totally screws up the NWO plan for a north and south american free trade alliance... which would have weakened America...

it insures that millions of jobs will no longer be exported to venezuela.... (have you asked what country your phone companies service reps are in lately?)

it also insures that the country will NOT fall to rebel coup. It might be a bit off one in itself, but it will keep a civil war from happening...

and as far as american business exporting to venezuela, the money hasn't been available for it for some time... so I think it will affect it little...
(we were doing business occassionally and still are)

but now the bush administration has another check on the board...
OHH no... commis, coups and dictators OH MY... the mission of delivering democracy to the world, just got a little more difficult...
now it is 149 countries to deliver instead of 148...

Originally posted by TheBandit795

Originally posted by Megaquad
Socialism has already been proven countless times on all continents to be the most terrible evil that has ever scorched mankind. It is why people in Africa are starving.

DEAD WRONG!!! People in Africa are starving because of capitalism!!! And Capitalism is what caused Guatemalans to suffer for decades. The CIA sponsored a coup to bring down a similar president as Chavez. All because he took away the land from United fruit corporation (that they weren't even using!!!) to give to the natives.

It's the same situation here.

And you don't want to know how arrogant upper class Venezuelians are.

what?.....TheBandit, we are suppose to deny ignorance.....so please do remember the fact that right now in many parts of Africa those in power are not only capitalists, but there are warlords who deny and stop international help to feed the people in Africa, so that the warlords can control the lands and the people....there are ethnic fights which have caused much suffering and genocide which were not a result from capitalism....and there are also those countries which are Islamic dictatorships in which quite a few people are suffering because of the whims of those in power....

Originally posted by Bout Time
Worthless posts that are so far off the mark, they take your breath away for the sheer ignorance?
Venezuela Commie Dictatorship? Exactly when was the last time you saw open elections, constitutions and recall-votes-of-confidence in one of those!?!
The fault rest clearly on American shoulders regarding overthrows and political highjinx.
Google Venezuela & Juan Otto Reich for some more info.

Bout Time, perhaps you should heed your own advice, there is a large majority of Venezuelans that do not want Chavez in power...there has been as much fraud in the elections of Venezuela as in the Ukraine...but perhaps you haven't followed the issue and are unaware of this.

A Monumental Fraud in Venezuela's Voting
The Wall Street Journal
Monday, August 30th, 2004 - As a member of the Coordinadora Democratica Commission that negotiated the agreement with the Carter Center and the Organization of American States (OAS) to oversee the referendum to recall Hugo Chavez, I read, with dismay and alarm, President Jimmy Carter's Aug. 24 Letter to the Editor in reference to Mary O'Grady's Aug. 20 Americas column "Observers Rush to Judgment in Caracas."

With dismay, to see how a Nobel Prize winner is capable of misrepresenting the facts of the electoral process, as well as covering up actions of an autocratic regime that for almost two years managed to postpone the referendum, abusing all its powers and using all kinds of "dirty tricks." And with alarm for his irresponsible rush to validate a slow-motion fraud process that started to occur more than a year before and that culminated with a monumental electronic fraud. Nevertheless, Mr. Carter writes: "We observed the entire voting process without limitation or restraint . . . and extra care was taken to ensure accuracy."

Excerpted from.
www.vcrisis.com.../200408301851



[edit on 7-2-2005 by Muaddib]

There is also the following.

2004 September 07 - Two Venezuelan academics claim to have found statistical evidence of fraud in last month's referendum on President Hugo Chavez, fueling the opposition's claims of a rigged vote and raising the possibility that despite Mr. Chavez's victory, the country's tense standoff will continue.

The claims were made Sunday by Ricardo Hausmann, a professor at Harvard University's John F. Kennedy School of Government and former chief economist at the Inter-American Development Bank, and Roberto Rigobon, a professor of applied economics at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology's Sloan School of Management.

The pair issued a report that tried to measure the possibility that the vote was clean using two separate analyses of the official results. In both cases, they said, the chances of a clean vote were less than one in 100.

Excerpted from.
www.vcrisis.com.../200409080559

Let's get some facts out so people can see what is happening in Venezuela..

In April 2003, FRONTLINE/World correspondent Juan Forero traveled to Venezuela for the first anniversary of the fleeting but violent three-day overthrow of President Hugo Chavez and his breathtaking return to power. Forero was looking to see where the deeply divided country is headed and to figure out how Venezuela, once stable and rich, has ended up on the edge of economic and political chaos.

Forero starts his quest in Simón Bolívar Plaza in downtown Caracas, the capital, where for the last year Chavistas (supporters of President Chavez) have gathered regularly to support the man they feel speaks up for Venezuela's poor. "He orients us," one man says, "shows us what was covered up. We were blindfolded before." Another woman tells Forero that Chavez is more important than God because he is the hope of the people.

Then, surprisingly, a woman steps forward and asks if she can offer a dissenting opinion, saying she is disenchanted with Chavez and will not vote for him again. The crowd does not take well to her request and grows progressively angrier, chanting Chavez's name, until Forero pulls the frightened woman into a nearby government building. Officials whisk her away and tell Forero that he shouldn't be covering politics, suggesting instead that he report on how good the tourism is in Venezuela.

Excerpted from.
www.pbs.org...

The following is also of importance.

Last year, Gonzalez played an important role in what has become the defining event in Venezuela's political crisis. Half a million people took to the streets in opposition to Chavez, but the day ended in violence, as shots rang out from a bridge and 19 people were killed. Inside the presidential palace, a brief coup took place, and an opposition leader was installed with Washington, D.C.'s implicit support. But three days later, Chavez supporters took back the streets and the palace, and the president was returned to power.

Excerpted from.
www.pbs.org...

You should know that most Venezuelans can not take a trip from different parts of the country to be part of a demonstration like people in the US can...so this half a million people are part of one city, Caracas.


Chavez is exerting power through force and taking out any opposition, as in fidel castro's style.... Do remember that he is an admirer of the "Cuban dictator" and says he wants to do to Venezuela what fidel has done to Cuba....that in itself should be a warning sign that this man is first of all crazed with power...and that he doesn't have the best interests of Venezuelans in mind....


---edited for errors---



[edit on 7-2-2005 by Muaddib]

Let see the bad and evil government of Venezuela and the next target maybe for freedom from tyranny.

Hum..........He is a self proclaim revolutionary.

1. He is doing land reform to use profits from Venezuela oil riches to the poor as to follow the ideas of the independence hero Simon Boliva.

2. He is expropriating 7.4 million acres to give to people that have work the land for others, now they will work the land for themselves and their families.

3. He is planning to take 42 acres of land that has been own by huge states of the rich and businesses but is laying without been used by anybody, and he is planning to give it to the needy and poor.

4. He has make possible for Venezuela to keep its oil as part of the state, and he has promised to use the oil revenue to fund social programs for the poor.

Now who is complaining of such a totalitarian Axis of evil leader? The US because is paying more for the Venezuelan oil, and the people that have vast amount of land and does not want to give it away for the less fortunate to work it.

Yes Chavez is and Evil man that only wants to help his poor people and to make his country for the people.

Hum.....US very hurry up and take him out before is to late.

abcnews.go.com...

Chavez has promised a new role for Venezuela's state-owned oil company in the "redistribution of national income." High oil prices have allowed the Venezuelan leader to fund massive social programs for the poor.


Yes he looks like Castro alright.


[edit on 7-2-2005 by marg6043]

Marg...perhaps you should hear what Chavez himself has claimed....

An essay by Brazilian philosopher Olavo de Carvalho poses the question, “What would Lenin do if he were president of Brazil?” Perhaps, on his first day in office, he would breakfast with Hugo Chavez and eat dinner with Fidel Castro. This is not what Carvalho’s essay suggests, but it is what Brazil’s new president has done. President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva used his first day in office to embrace the “axis of the good,” an anti-American alliance formed between communist Cuba, Venezuela and Brazil. This “axis of the good,” so named by President Chavez of Venezuela, is remarkably similar to the “axis of evil.” Both oppose U.S. imperialism. Both are hostile to capitalism and free markets. Both look favorably on anti-Western terrorists and communists.

Excerpted from.
militaresdemocraticos.surebase.com...


1. Chavez wants to take all the land and keep it for the State, just like Castro did, where people work the land but are not allowed to keep what they harvest from the land... If he is going to follow castro's Cuba he is not going to give land to the poor Marg....

2. Chavez wants to make neighborhood committees, just like in Cuba, so that he and his followers can keep track of the opposition and take care of them as in castro's Cuba....

3. The people of Venezuela can look forward to working the lands so that Chavez can sell most of it's products and food to other countries, which is what fidel has been doing all along.... Remember that he wants to follow the footsteps of castro....

4. Hey Marg, if you like so much a dictator who says he is and admirer and a follower of castro, you know we can give you either of the dictators for Costa Rica if you want... I am sure that at least most of the Cuban people people won't object...


[edit on 7-2-2005 by Muaddib]

Hey we need to hurry up muaddib get your gear and go for it lets take over Venezuela and take that tyrant out of that country.

Can you imagine allowing the poor to become land owners we can not allowed that.

And the oil!!!!!!no we can not allowed the money to be used for programs for the poor, we need Texaco and Mobil to privatized that oil.

By the way Muaddib how many pictures of our politicians has been taken with dictators around the world?

Grow up and smell the world of deception and lies.

I think next time you do a search find some of them to post them here too.

Originally posted by marg6043
Can you imagine allowing the poor to become land owners we can not allowed that.

Grow up and smell the world of deception and lies.

I think next time you do a search find some of them to post them here too.

How many of our govenrment people have said they want to follow in the steps of a known dictator Marg?...

BTW, you are still ignoring a couple of facts...

First of all in a socialist or communist country...people do not own land Marg.....so it is a joke that you are saying that Chavez is going to give the land to the poor....the land belongs to the State, or him, Chavez....not the people....

Oh, and you better go to Venezuela and help Chavez to "shut up" the opposition by force...

In some cases non-violence requires more militancy than violence.
Cesar Chavez

Excerpted from.
www.brainyquote.com...

oh Marg, just in case you don't understand what Chavez said above....he is saying that in occasion force is necessary to make people shut up even thou they are not violent....

Keep hailing Chavez as a savior Marg....

---edited for errors and to add comment---

[edit on 7-2-2005 by Muaddib]