OP/ED: Hugo Chavez Dismantles Democracy in Venezuela

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posted on Feb, 7 2005 @ 11:05 PM
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Originally posted by marg6043
muaddib do you have an account of the deaths by all these actions?

I imagine that the US will make a big deal and will be all over the news, you know, more to inflame the American public against the evil regime of Chavez.


In this kind of situation it is very difficult to find exactly how many people have died, or to find how many have dissapeared because they oppose Chavez. Chavez is castro's mentor, pal, and partner in crime. i am pretty sure he has learned well how to keep out of the media much of what he does.


Mr Castro praised the leadership qualities of the Venezuelan president.

"I have confidence in you," he told President Chavez. "At this moment, in this country, you have no substitute."

Mr Chavez has promised to launch an ambitious new economic policy aimed at pushing through a "social revolution" for Venezuela's poor.

The two have a shared passion for leftist ideals and strongly condemn colonialism past and present.


Excerpted from.
news.bbc.co.uk...




posted on Feb, 7 2005 @ 11:14 PM
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Originally posted by The Vagabond
.............
You're the Cuban-America so let me put the question before you. America on the whole disapproves of Castro. The facts to build support for action against Castro exist. Our Marines could mop the floor with him in short order. Two questions: 1. Should we do it? 2. Will Cubans pick up the ball and run with it, or will it turn into another Iraq?


The people in Cuba don't own weapons, and can't buy any weapons. fidel made sure that people wouldn't revolt against him and took all the weapons away. When you see a government looking to disarm a whole nation beware.... unfortunately there are communists in Cuba, these people live in better homes than most of the population and have their plates always full of food. Those communists are the ones in the inner circle of fidel castro (btw, i write his name in lower case purposedly) and those would fight against any attempt to overthrow the regime...

But, if the people in Cuba were given weapons and if there was military help from the US, most of the people in Cuba would help in the overthrow of the regime.

[edit on 7-2-2005 by Muaddib]



posted on Feb, 8 2005 @ 12:20 AM
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Vagabond, no cold war this time. Cold Wars are military. The Chinese are using economics. Yeah I know, Brits/Americans know ALL about economics. The Chinese just may spank the U.S.- if they do the crying will deafen many. When the dollar truly becomes paper again (use Google and look up continental dollar. Now read a few of those threads to find out where toilet paper came from
)

From Iranian oil, to Venezuelan oil, to Panamanian control of the China Canal (didn't matter what Carter did- the Chinese would have infiltrated anyway), to Russian and Canadian heavy metals, to Syrian and Australian wheat the Chinese are about to teach the world a hard lessen about demand side economics.

Remember Reagan and his supply-side 'voodoo economics' (quote, Geo. Bush I) ? That worked for a while, escalated the federal debt astronomically (most think it was military spending, but they are wrong) and ruined many American industries and trade relationships.

This time will be different. The Chinese have the demand (for raw materials) and they have something no one in more than one hundred years has had- money from the richest country on earth. The Chinese OWN (capital letters) the American debt. This is something the Japanese in the 1930's didn't have, they had no lever. The Chinese lever is huge.
'give me a big enough lever and I can move the world' (someone great said that)

2006 is my guess.

Seeing as this is a Venezuela thread I'll rope the puppy in-
    Venezuela will benefit three ways:
    vastly increased oil sales without American interference,
    produce exports and goods imports (China has no one-way streets) and finally
    massive growth.

Sure Venezuela has problems to deal with, Columbia and America being the biggest two, but with unbridled growth all else will fall by the wayside. As Singapore has shown the world, give people true growth and social unrest disappears (gets marginalized anyway).

Remember, 2006 !


.



posted on Feb, 8 2005 @ 12:40 AM
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Originally posted by Muaddib
In communism, the state (government) owns all property


WRONG. Under communism, the PEOPLE own the property, not the government. The idea is that the size of government is to be expanded beyond just a few elected officials, until the government consists of the entire citizenry. This basically renders the government obsolete, since the people now settle their own affairs. So, the government is dismantled.



so, please do tell me how is it so good that a few people in power can have the power to own all the land and distribute it as they see fit among a nation....


its not. what you are describing is the antithesis of the communist ideal.



posted on Feb, 8 2005 @ 03:44 AM
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Originally posted by JoeDoaks
Vagabond, no cold war this time. Cold Wars are military.

Semantics I suppose, but if it were purely military it would be a hot war. The goal of a cold-war is strategic martial superiority, however the weapons of a cold war are politics, economics, intelligence/covert services etc. And yes, I know what the phrase "not worth a continental" means; it has something to do French involvement in NATO. (sorry I figured if I didn't say something that sounded neo-con-like I would eventually be tarred and feathered, and it IS fun to make fun of France.)


From Iranian oil, to Venezuelan oil, to Panamanian control of the China Canal (didn't matter what Carter did- the Chinese would have infiltrated anyway), to Russian and Canadian heavy metals, to Syrian and Australian wheat the Chinese are about to teach the world a hard lessen about demand side economics.

This time will be different. The Chinese have the demand (for raw materials) and they have something no one in more than one hundred years has had- money from the richest country on earth. The Chinese OWN (capital letters) the American debt.

Agreed, and that's when the cold war has a potential to go hot, although China wouldn't really want it to. If we cease to be profitable or become too great a pain in the neck they'll cut our throats economically. Otherwise they'll get rich off us while making us ever so slightly less rich, which will translate into fat lazy Americans who don't super-size their Mc Donalds meals, drive older cars, and work in the service industry more than production industries. Higher taxes will have to pick up the slack for unemployment rates. Come to think of it... that started happening about 4 years ago, although the tax hike is still pending.

If America were looking at an economic disaster we'd cook up some fairly complicated accusation of a hostile Chinese scheme for domestic consumption and dare them to send a repo-man. We'll figure that since we make up so much of the demand for products that nobody would dare stop trading with us or sieze assetts of ours, and if they do we'll declare war.

The worst case scenario would be a major war in Southern Asia, which I believe we are already preparing for with Afghanistan, Iraq, and later Iran.
The simpler scenario is Chinese presence in South America extending to Central America and Cuba and resulting in an aerial blockade of the Gulf of Mexico.
If war were to errupt this could mean a 3 pronged invasion of the USA through Mexico by China, through Canada (with an unopposed crossing of the Rockies in Canada) and through Florida, again by China. I doubt such an invasion could be successful, but it's not beyond the realm of possibility.

At the end of the day, China and America can hurt eachother or help eachother. China can profit from hurting us a little bit, but if they cut our throats we're not their clients anymore. They'll be looking to make us scale back our military strength and activity and press us into importing more, but I don't see them trying to outright bankrupt us or start a war with us, even though they could if we really pissed them off.



posted on Feb, 8 2005 @ 09:35 AM
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Originally posted by General Zapata

Originally posted by Muaddib
In communism, the state (government) owns all property


WRONG. Under communism, the PEOPLE own the property, not the government. The idea is that the size of government is to be expanded beyond just a few elected officials, until the government consists of the entire citizenry. This basically renders the government obsolete, since the people now settle their own affairs. So, the government is dismantled.

its not. what you are describing is the antithesis of the communist ideal.


BS, lol...another one trying to sell communism again?... you can't lie to people who have lived under communism....

How exactly can all the people own all the property?....by being public property which is really owned by the state.... the state can tell you you must go from the house you lived for 20 years because they are going to build another government building, or for whatever reason, and you must comply. Since the property is not really yours, they don't give you any money, they will in fact put you in another house that is most probably going to be smaller and a piece of crap...that's communism for ya.


a totalitarian system of government in which a single authoritarian party controls state-owned means of production with the professed aim of establishing a stateless society



a theoretical economic system characterized by the collective ownership of property and by the organization of labor for the common advantage of all members of society


Excerpted from.
www.google.com...:Communism


Oh and btw, all the poor farmers that at least owned some land and were able to get food will not own any land anymore, the food collected from the farms is to be redistributed by the state, meaning the state says how much you can eat and what you can eat...the rest of the food is exported to make the "revolution richer' meaning those in power.... I am pretty sure Venezuelans soon will have a "libreta" base system, which is a book that the government gives you telling you what food you can buy for your family, and yes, you still have to buy the food....

You want a communist state? go ahead, go live in one...perhaps soon you will see why Chinese people, Cuban people, and many russians try to leave their countries...

[edit on 8-2-2005 by Muaddib]



posted on Feb, 8 2005 @ 11:16 AM
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Originally posted by Muaddib

Originally posted by Bout Time
Worthless posts that are so far off the mark, they take your breath away for the sheer ignorance?
Venezuela Commie Dictatorship? Exactly when was the last time you saw open elections, constitutions and recall-votes-of-confidence in one of those!?!
The fault rest clearly on American shoulders regarding overthrows and political highjinx.
Google Venezuela & Juan Otto Reich for some more info.



Originally posted by djohnsto77
Bout time, if my post is so worthless than why do many people agree and why has it sparked a debate?

Obviously you have nothing meaningful to add otherwise you would have done so rather than to resort to slanderous personal attacks.


Bout Time, perhaps you should heed your own advice, there is a large majority of Venezuelans that do not want Chavez in power...there has been as much fraud in the elections of Venezuela as in the Ukraine...but perhaps you haven't followed the issue and are unaware of this.


A Monumental Fraud in Venezuela's Voting
The Wall Street Journal
Monday, August 30th, 2004 - As a member of the Coordinadora Democratica Commission that negotiated the agreement with the Carter Center and the Organization of American States (OAS) to oversee the referendum to recall Hugo Chavez, I read, with dismay and alarm, President Jimmy Carter's Aug. 24 Letter to the Editor in reference to Mary O'Grady's Aug. 20 Americas column "Observers Rush to Judgment in Caracas."

With dismay, to see how a Nobel Prize winner is capable of misrepresenting the facts of the electoral process, as well as covering up actions of an autocratic regime that for almost two years managed to postpone the referendum, abusing all its powers and using all kinds of "dirty tricks." And with alarm for his irresponsible rush to validate a slow-motion fraud process that started to occur more than a year before and that culminated with a monumental electronic fraud. Nevertheless, Mr. Carter writes: "We observed the entire voting process without limitation or restraint . . . and extra care was taken to ensure accuracy."


Excerpted from.
www.vcrisis.com.../200408301851



[edit on 7-2-2005 by Muaddib]



DJ - the issue of a debate being sparked is far removed from your input on the subject; except as further illustration of group-think rational in the support of everything your PARTY tells you to support....America be damned, NECon Republicanism must come first

MDib- Of course there are Venezuelans who don't want Chavez - much the same as in Cuba, they were the White wealthy & professional....the gentry.
In Venezuela, they're far from the majority. It is literally a Surburban "uprising" - from the richer suburbs comes the cry "foul".
From your link above, that Opinion letter speaks to half truths & is from a Suburbanite from Caracas:

- The National Electoral Council could only verify 2/3 of the signatures needed to enpower the recall vote....over a third were duplicated or unverifiable. THAT WAS THE HOLD UP.

- Coordinadora Democratica was already staging for a coup attempt before even entering into resolution with the NEC (CNE).

- CD only revisited the legitimate recall route after their illegitimate coup attempt failed ( with the blessing of fellow Cubano - Juan Otto Reich, a.k.a. NAZI ) It was found he staged this: " "leading sectors of Venezuela's opposition hope to stimulate once again a military coup or even a US intervention. A few hundred even demonstrated in front of the US embassy in Caracas in favour of an intervention, holding up signs saying '1 Hussein; 2 Aristide; 3 Chavez.'"-

- Here is part of the "alliance" that makes up Coordnadora Democratica: Some have rallied behind Miranda state governor Enrique Mendoza and his police chief Hermes Rojas Peralta, who has strong links to Luis Posada Carriles, a Cuban exile CIA operative who was jailed in Venezuela in connection with the bombing of a Cuban airliner in 1976, killing 73 people, and is now facing charges for attempting to assassinate Fidel Castro in Panama. Also active in this network is a rightwing terrorist group known as the Venezuelan Patriotic Front, and the Miami-based Cuban émigré terrorist front known as the Comandos F4. This last group, the Comandos F4, candidly stated February 28 that it had reactivated the "Latin American Civic-Military Alliance" to "coordinate military expertise and experience and exchange intelligence" on leftists in Latin America.
These fascistic outfits form part of an opposition that has received both covert and overt funding from Washington. According to recent documents obtained through the Freedom of Information Act, US agencies funnelled over a million dollars in April 2002 and another $800,000 since June of the same year to organizations associated with the Venezuelan opposition.
Among the organizations to receive the most funds is the corrupt Confederation of Venezuelan Workers (CTV), which between 1998 and March 2003 had $631,000 channelled through the American Center for International Labor Solidarity-a part of the US government-financed National Endowment for Democracy that is run jointly with the US AFL-CIO labour bureaucracy. The CTV bureaucracy assisted the Venezuelan business association in planning the 2002 coup and in organizing a 12-hour strike/lockout that shut down light industry, banks and the retail sector to demand that Chavez resign.
These forces also enjoy close ties to Bush's chief policy-makers on Latin America, including presidential envoy Otto Reich, US ambassador to Venezuela Charles Shapiro-both were engaged in intimate discussions with the putschists prior to and during the military overthrow of Chavez two years ago-and Roger Noriega, who last September replaced Reich as Assistant Secretary of State for Western Hemisphere Affairs.
Shapiro and Reich are linked to the massacres and assassinations carried out by El Salvador's military-backed death squads, as well as to Lt. Col. Oliver North's illegal network for funding the "contra" war against Nicaragua in the 1980s. Noriega, a newer Republican apparatchik, began his career as an aide to the extreme anti-communist senator from North Carolina, Jesse Helms, and was then tapped as Washington's permanent representative to the OAS.
What characterizes all of these officials is their pathological hatred of socialism, democracy and the international working class. They are ideologically committed to a foreign policy directed at quashing any attempt, no matter how meagre, to shift wealth and power away from the multinational corporations and the native oligarchies.
A case in point is Chavez, elected twice with the largest popular margins in Venezuelan history on promises of agrarian reform and reducing entrenched poverty. He has earned Washington's ire through his populist rhetoric, friendly ties to Cuba's Fidel Castro, opposition to the Free Trade Agreement of the Americas and his refusal to carry out the privatization of Venezuela's giant state-owned oil company, PDVSA.
Yet "emerging market bond investors like Chavez in power because they know he's going to continue to service the debt," a Deutsche Bank economist observed recently. Moreover Chavez has overseen a redrafting of the constitution in 2000 that "liberalized foreign investment laws and strengthened the economy's capitalist foundation." That is, his railing against neo-liberalism notwithstanding, he is implementing the demands of the foreign banks and international financial institutions.
( Bout Time: "A FAR BETTER management of his country's economic situation than what Bush is trying to do to the US!!!)
Despite this, the US-backed Venezuelan putschists are clamouring for Washington to intervene, as they attempt to create a political climate akin to the one that existed in Haiti on the eve of the anti-Aristide coup.




- Third World Traveler

Mdib - you should also be honest that your above "Venezuelan" site is part CubaNet www.cubanet.org, a virolent, ultra right wing point of info.

Here's a site on Venezuela, from Venezuela, by Venezuelans....without the Right Wing South Florida Cuban expatriat spin: venezuelanalysis.com...



posted on Feb, 8 2005 @ 12:13 PM
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Originally posted by Bout Time

MDib- Of course there are Venezuelans who don't want Chavez - much the same as in Cuba, they were the White wealthy & professional....the gentry.
In Venezuela, they're far from the majority. It is literally a Surburban "uprising" - from the richer suburbs comes the cry "foul".
From your link above, that Opinion letter speaks to half truths & is from a Suburbanite from Caracas:


You are so off the mark is not even funny. In Cuba most people, that means everyone, no matter the skin color, don't want castro.... the same in Venezuela. (There are people from all skin colors who are against Chavez) Oh and btw, i have dark skinned relatives in my family, to us in Cuba, or here in the states the color of skin does not matter...but some in here seem to think it does....

i am aware that there are some groups who want people to think what you just said, but these people don't want to show you pictures of those people that are not white and are protesting against Chavez...

Are you going to say the same of the protests in Europe, where most photos depict white people protesting against president Bush and the administration?....of course not, you only use that when it fits you...the same can be said of those groups who try to sell this lie to others.....

BTW...there are a lot of white people who are citizens of latin-american countries and are not rich...in case you didn't know, and there are more white people, or lighter skinned people, who are not rich than whites who are rich...

NICE TRY!!!!!!! ......NOT.......

Oh and btw, I also found the following.....Chavez now wants to ban tv stations because they don't share with the public a pretty picture about him....


Venezuela: Media Freedom Threatened

(New York, January 25, 2003) A government investigation into alleged violations of broadcasting regulations by two Venezuelan television stations threatens media freedoms in Venezuela, Human Rights Watch said today. The stations are being investigated for broadcasts that allegedly discredit the Venezuelan government and President Hugo Chávez.


Excerpted from.
hrw.org...

Oh and another thing...did anyone see the video in the link i provided? no?... in the video a reporter is asking people who support Chavez what they think of him...one woman says in Spanish that "he is more important than God"...then a woman, brown skinned woman (I am making a note of this since it is so important to some just to hear what people say which have darker skin...while the people with lighter skin color to them it seems they are not important...)

Well, back to the story, a "brown skinned woman" comes out and says if she can say something against Chavez...she says she was a supporter of Chavez but that she won't vote for him again because there is no democracy with Chavez. People around her become agitated, and the woman feels threatened, she is led away by the reporter as he takes her to a building to speak to her, but then they notice that three men who work for the government follow them and they take the woman away.... One of the government employees tell the reporter that he shoudn't be reporting about politics...

Is that democracy?... Watch the video for yourselves and tell me that is democracy. You can see how the "brown skinned" woman is taken away by the government officials. She was just trying to speak her mind, she did not become violent or anything, in fact, the "Chavistas" were the ones becoming agitated as she said she was not going to vote for their new God....

Here is a link to the video, a link to the video can be found on the upper right hand corner at this link.

www.pbs.org...

You can also see how a brown skinned Chavez protester is lying down as he bleeds on the street, probably from a bullet wound.





[edit on 8-2-2005 by Muaddib]



posted on Feb, 8 2005 @ 12:35 PM
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I took the time to thoroughly read the frontline article that you linked. Thank you for providing it. However, the article leaves me slightly confused as to who is spinning the truth more.

For example:


With oil reserves that rival some of the largest producers in the Middle East, Venezuela is sitting on a virtual gold mine. It's the fourth-largest supplier of oil to the United States, but oil money has not been an economic cure-all. The population has outgrown the rise in oil revenues, and successive governments have squandered oil riches and stolen public funds. The few who consistently profit are the very rich, who are staunchly opposed to Chavez. These people are a driving force in an opposition movement made up largely of middle-class Venezuelans, who are increasingly anxious about the country's economic nosedive.



As people gather around Gonzalez for his autograph, Forero notes that it does says something about Venezuela's unusual brand of democracy that this man who has worked hard to overthrow Chavez is not in prison, but free to speak out and being treated like a celebrity.



If there's one thing that both sides agree on it's that Chavez has succeeded in making people political. As Otero puts it, "He has politicized people so much that anybody who comes to power after Chavez will be obliged to talk to people every day, to make decisions in terms of what people want. He won't be able to govern like people before Chavez. That's a big revolution."

and


That same evening the opposition holds their own rally, every bit as big as the earlier Chavez rally. The anti-Chavez people use the same film clip of Tortoza's shooting death that the pro-Chavez rally used earlier. It underscores for Forero that both sides are manipulating the victims for political gain.


These statements do not seem to match your assertions, and come from the very link you provided.



posted on Feb, 8 2005 @ 12:50 PM
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Here is the site of a Venezuelan, who happens to have darker skin, and who protests and shows some pictures of protests against Chavez.

Here is one of the pictures of the protesters, you can't see their faces, but note the amount of protesters.



In the following picture you can see some other protesters who have darker skin....

In that photo there is one protester holding a sign which says.

"From the door of my house, in correct formation goes marching PDVSA (? I am not certain what it says), to oust the dictator.

People come from the farms, others from the refineries, from Caracas, and also from the interior.

The Navy has a boat, the Airforce has a plane, "Miraflores" has a crazed man, who believes to be Napoleon.

But what I like the most, and fills me with emotion, is that we are here singing.
Get this thief out



The translation does not do justice to what the sign says, since it rhymes in Spanish.


All of these pictures come from the following site.
vzla.com...


[edit on 8-2-2005 by Muaddib]



posted on Feb, 8 2005 @ 12:54 PM
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Muaddib,

A question. What would happen to these protestor's if they were in Cuba? Would a demonstation of this size be allowed to occur?



posted on Feb, 8 2005 @ 12:55 PM
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i also like the following picture, althou who the military is dragging along is a Venezuelan, i like the photoshop that was done to make it look like it is Chavez.




That picture is also taken from the link i gave above.

[edit on 8-2-2005 by Muaddib]



posted on Feb, 8 2005 @ 12:59 PM
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Originally posted by Duzey
I took the time to thoroughly read the frontline article that you linked. Thank you for providing it. However, the article leaves me slightly confused as to who is spinning the truth more.
....................
These statements do not seem to match your assertions, and come from the very link you provided.


Did you look at the video?

Take a look at it.

BTW, of course that those who have properties are going to protest too. How many people in these boards have properties and are considered rich?.....

Show me hands, how many people in these forums are buying their homes or have a property and are considered rich?....





[edit on 8-2-2005 by Muaddib]



posted on Feb, 8 2005 @ 01:02 PM
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Do give it sometime and see if these people who protest, and are supposedly celebrities, are going to stay free for long. As Chavez is still trying to gain support from the people, of course he is not going to use all the extreme measures that are known from communist states. This happens after dictators have full control of a nation....


Oh and btw, since you all have internet and computers, you are all considered rich by farmers... Just something that you should know...

[edit on 8-2-2005 by Muaddib]



posted on Feb, 8 2005 @ 01:10 PM
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I am perfectly willing to wait and see, and give it time. I just wish you could do the same, that's all.

And that poor lady looks like a Kerry supporter at a Bush rally. It appears this country is just as divided as the US.

edited to add that in the video they clearly state they don't know which side shot that fellow.

[edit on 8-2-2005 by Duzey]



posted on Feb, 8 2005 @ 01:19 PM
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Originally posted by Duzey
I am perfectly willing to wait and see, and give it time. I just wish you could do the same, that's all.

And that poor lady looks like a Kerry supporter at a Bush rally. It appears this country is just as divided as the US.


No she doesn't.....how many people in here are taken away just by trying to speak their minds?... Did she raise her voice or become violent in any way?....no...and the government employee told the reporter to not cover politics in Venezuela....

You want to wait on a man that says he is following the footsteps of the cuban dictator, and wants Venezuela as Cuba is?.....


In the case of this woman, she was taken away because she is not a public figure, and few people will know her.

Cuba used to be the jewel of the caribbean, until fidel convinced the farmers that they could have more than what they had....yeah right, it is true that now most people in Cuba have pretty much the same things....which is less than what farmers used to have before the "revolution".... The same will happen to Venezuela. Chavez himself is the one saying this not me...

[edit on 8-2-2005 by Muaddib]



posted on Feb, 8 2005 @ 01:46 PM
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I was referring to how her fellow countrymen treated her, and should have been clearer on that point. The country is divided with some supporting the leader, and some who do not.

While I defer to your knowledge on Cuba, to my knowledge, you have never lived in Venezuela so you do not get the same courtesy on this country. To me, it appears your country's history is biasing your opinions, and you are not willing to give him the slightest chance to prove that he's trying to make things better.

If you have lived in Venezuela, tell me, and then I will give your opinions on the subject more weight.



posted on Feb, 8 2005 @ 02:13 PM
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We've had, in every former Spanish colony, a gentry of the purer blood Spaniards holding control over the mixed peoples.......Caribe, Taino, Mestito, whatever the case maybe.
Of course there's some diversity in each camp; but you're going to sit there & try to tell me that a Black Cuban held the same social station as your grand or great grand father? Come on, I'm not biting on that attempt by you to depict the obvious as race baiting.
Yes, I know many South American, Caribbean & European White Latinos are not rich......I'm related to them too.

I remember you joining a thread about the FCC, and making comments in support of it's hevy handedness. Yet, you take this bombastic quote of "Media Freedom Threatened"
From the piece:

- The gov. investigated the same sation 4 years ago for the same type of charge....yet that "Fox News" outlet is still humming along.

- THe "Destruction of Media Freedom" being talked about? Fines & suspension

Hardly Putin/KGB busting in and closing down the shop, no?

The video:

That woman was hardly what I would call Mestito or even Moreno. And what she said was, "If you can't say something against Chavez, it's not a democracy". Big difference. Also, standing in the middle of a chanting bunch of Republican Bush supporters in town square in Iowa would have gotten as harsh, if not a harsher response, than that woman endured.

The Castro thing is the start & stop of your perspective on this, and that's unfortunate.
Chavez has been through 8 votes since 1998, and has a mandate from those people.
It's democracy at work, whether you like it or not.
They are not Communist. They are simply going through the push for reversion to the rich owned, 2 class system.

This is why the Bush Administration is after Chavez:

* He has been an influential member in the OPEC oil cartel of oil producing nations;
* He has criticized the U.S.'s bombing of Afghanistan in retaliation for the September 11 2001 terrorist attacks;
* He has stopped the Venezuelan military taking part in naval exercises in the Caribbean;
* The U.S. military has been denied access to Venezuelan airspace, hampering Washington's war in Colombia;
* He has been friendly to Cuba's Fidel Castro;
* He has tried to implement economic policies that are not always in line with the Washington Consensus/Neoliberalism ideology;
* And, Venezuela is also home to the largest currently known oil reserves in the world outside the Middle East.

In supporting opposition groups, raising concerns about human rights issues from Chavez only and reporting only on anti-Chavez demonstrations, the U.S. has invited criticisms yet again of interference in a democratically elected government (Chavez won with overwhelming support) by another country (the United States).



posted on Feb, 8 2005 @ 03:07 PM
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Originally posted by Duzey
.........................
While I defer to your knowledge on Cuba, to my knowledge, you have never lived in Venezuela so you do not get the same courtesy on this country. To me, it appears your country's history is biasing your opinions, and you are not willing to give him the slightest chance to prove that he's trying to make things better.

If you have lived in Venezuela, tell me, and then I will give your opinions on the subject more weight.


Hold on a second there....let me get this straight...

You do agree that fidel castro is a dictator and that what he did to Cuba was not for the betterment of the country but for the betterment of himself and those communists close to him. You agree with this right?

Ok, now let's see some of the things that Chavez has done and said.


The Venezuelan president, Hugo Chavez, has said he will ask the National Assembly for special powers to legislate by decree in social and economic areas for one year.

If the so-called Enabling Law is approved, Mr Chavez will have the right to legislate without parliamentary debate.

Mr Chavez said the new legislation would include a new land law, as well as reforms in the oil, banking and transport sectors.

He described these laws as vital and urgent.


Excerpted from.
news.bbc.co.uk...

Some in ehre have said that CHavez is not doing anything against those who oppose him...


A second military officer in Venezuela has been arrested after criticising the president, Hugo Chavez.

The air force colonel, Silvino Bustillos, was detained shortly after accusing Mr Chavez of flouting a legal ban on the use of the national anthem and other symbols in his re-election campaign.

Last week, another officer who spoke out against the president Luis Garcia was discharged from service.

The criticisms have led to speculation about widespread unrest in Venezuela's armed forces, but Mr Chavez insists the officers acted alone.


Excerpted from.
news.bbc.co.uk...

Let's see what Chavez thinks about CUba's and CHina's human right records..


The President of Venezuela, Hugo Chavez, says his country would oppose any censure of China or Cuba at the United Nations for their human rights record.


Excerpted from.
news.bbc.co.uk...

Let's see what Chavez has said about castro..


We welcome the brother, the friend, the revolutionary soldier who has been an example of dignity for this entire continent, for the heavens and the sea," President Chavez said in greeting.


Excerpted from.
news.bbc.co.uk...

fidel castro an example of dignity for the entire continent?.....


General Efrain Vasquez said he could no longer be loyal to Mr Chavez following what he described as attacks on the Venezuelan people.

Earlier 10 senior officers announced they were setting up a parallel high command, while the head of the National Guard proposed the immediate formation of a provisional government.
................
Correspondents say there is an uneasy calm on the streets of Caracas which on Thursday saw pitched battles between police and protesters when more than 150,000 people marched on the presidential palace demanding the president's resignation.

As violence erupted, Mr Chavez ordered troops to surround the palace and suspended the broadcasts of five private television stations in Caracas on the grounds that they were inciting people to violence.


Excerpted from.
news.bbc.co.uk...

What Chavez wants to do to the education system in Venezuela.


CARACAS, Venezuela (AP) -- In the largest protest against President Hugo Chavez's government to date, some 5,000 parents and teachers demonstrated Friday against what they say is a push to tighten state grip on education and introduce leftist ideology in schools.

Chanting "Chavez, don't mess with my children!" and waving banners, the
demonstrators marched through the streets of the capital city, Caracas, to the Ministry of Education building.

The unexpected protest was against a new decree that allowed the ministry of education to fire teachers and administrators in private and public schools based on information collected by supervisors picked by the government.

"We don't want to be led toward communism," said demonstrator Carmen Oropeza, a mother of two.


Excerpted from.
www.latinamericanstudies.org...

Now read carefully the following part...


The reform project is spearheaded by a Marxist sociologist, Carlos Lanz, who says his goal is to expunge what he considers a bias in Venezuelan education toward "consumerism and capitalism."

Lanz, who was a leftist guerrilla in the 1960's, says he wants to instill nationalism in students to replace an idea supposedly shared among young Venezuelans that they are "citizens of world."


Excerpted from.
www.latinamericanstudies.org...

Let's see some of the other....reforms that Chavez has called for in the past.


Addressing the newly elected Constituent Assembly in early August, Chavez called for the assembly to assume emergency powers that would supersede the authority of the nation's present executive, legislative, and judicial branches. "What is occurring is a revolution, and it will be futile to try to avoid it; Venezuela is being reborn from the ashes, and no one can stop it," he told the assembly.


Excerpted from.
www.worldpress.org...

What Chavez wants is what so many in these same forums are against. He wants to have all the power, is that a democracy?.....

Let's see what are the plans of Chavez against those who oppose him, whther publicly or in private.


Yesterday, the Venezuelan National Assembly approved the changes to the new penal code. These changes criminalize dissent, criticism and any activity against Government officials by individuals. In the case of criticism of President Chavez, it is a criminal offense to “offend” the President either publicly or in private.


Excerpted from.
burtonterrace.blogspot.com...

Here is another link that corroborates this...


CARACAS, Venezuela - A new penal code approved by Venezuela's Congress would stiffen prison sentences for slander and libel, drawing criticism from opponents of President Hugo Chavez.

Chavez's foes said the new rules were an attempt to stifle dissent.

The changes are ``incompatible with freedom of expression,'' said Alberto Arteaga, a law professor at Venezuela's Central University who often defends opposition politicians in court.


Excerpted from.
news.bostonherald.com...

So, you are telling me that Chavez, who professes to be castro's mentor, not only his ally, close personal friend and an example for Venezuela... is not grounds for concern? That Chavez is not taking Venezuela down the same path that Cuba was taken by castro?.... please...

And now, you want to deny all the information I am presenting because I don't live in Venezuela?....


---edited for errors---

[edit on 8-2-2005 by Muaddib]



posted on Feb, 8 2005 @ 03:10 PM
link   

Originally posted by Bout Time

I remember you joining a thread about the FCC, and making comments in support of it's hevy handedness. Yet, you take this bombastic quote of "Media Freedom Threatened"


Would you care to "quote" and link, exactly what it was that I said in that comment?...

When you quote what I said, and we look at what I was talking about, then you can try to use this against me.....

[edit on 8-2-2005 by Muaddib]





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