Is the God of Genesis 1 El or Yam?

a reply to: Sahabi

Like I said, I understand Yam (or Yamm some places) as a personification or anthropomorphism of water, and water has so many sides and aspects, like i said the sea can be flat as a mirror and the calmest and most relaxing place to be in the world, but half an hour later the fog comes freezing in or a storm builds up and well, it's not hard to understand that water gods were so popular in these kinds of mythologies because it has so many what should I say, emotions, comparable to human nature and such and how you can tell much about the weather the day after just by putting together signs from nature, and giving the wind a voice is simple to the abstract thinker. I actually like Leviathan as I said, in Zohar i think it was, he is said to have been commanded by God to retrieve the book Adam received after he ate from the hand of Eve, which Satan rebelled against (this was actually the reason why the ante-diluvian war in Heaven broke out where Shamael fell for the first time and had his name changed by shifting out the first letter from Shin to Samech so his name changed from Name of God into Venom of God. I write Satan's name as Shemael, Name of God.

Leviathan is also a personification of the Nile, and the Yam-Suph (notise Yam = Nile) Moses and his pack crossed is actually the flooding Nile, not the Red Sea. Moses signalled to the people controlling the elaborate dams and sluices allowing for crossing from one side of the valley to the other, even during the annual Monsoon floods, when the water level at Cairo rose with about 5-7 yards (up to 17-20 yards in Aswan). Multiply by approx. 3 to get the feet measure..

And like I also said, there are many stories spun up about him. In some he is a dragon himself, but in others (Canaanite) he is El's favorite son and his main ally against Baal. Baal is another such character with a vast array of stories, where in one he is the greatest and in the other he is the Satan of satans. After all, baal means husband, master and lord Such people have many opinions and emotions projected at them, so it's understandable that these gods are described in many different contexts and stands out in literature spanning millennias as, what should I say, volatile or unstable?

I am not very familiar with Yam, though I have searched for material about him everywhere after I found out he was one and the same with Leviathan, one of my favorite though eh, elusive(?) character in the literature I have. Most of what I know about Yamm is from a couple of books I have, and spurious pages on the net. 2 secs. I'll check my library.....

There.
John McKay - Religion in Judah under the Assyrians - ISBN 0-8401-3076-7
Mark S. Smith - The early history of God - ISBN 978-0-8028-3972-5
J. Black and A. Green - Gods, Demons and Symbols of Ancient Mesopotamia - ISBN978-0-292-70794-8

I have a few more, but I just got a visitor I have to give her some attention. Coming back with more.

PS: Thanks for dropping by, I appreciate it a lot, I haven't been well lately and have come out of a period of quite depressing character, so I had a few quarrels with certain users here lately, but you and a few others have made this return to ATS much better, thanks for being a great guy, mate

a reply to: Utnapisjtim


Yam is Sea in Hebrew-Aramaic.

God of the Sea in Ugaritic mythology.

El is Father of the Elohim, Baal, Dagan, Yam, Mot, Shachar, Shalim, etc.

Asherah would be the Spirit above the water, Yam the water, not a god just sea, "Lady Asherah of the Sea", is Mother of the Elohim.

That'd be the Spirit. Asherah was worshipped in Temple until Josiah

Yam isn't a Biblical god, it just means sea at that point. 800 years seperates the two and Yam isn't mentioned in later Phoenician mythology.

El/Elohim is El, God. They took a plural word and applied it as a name for God, Adonai and YHVH are plural too.

Yam kills Baal in the Ugaritic texts, Baal ressurects after descending to Mot/Death, the underworld and emerges as "Most High Baal."

If you can fit that in to Genesis good luck!!!

Don't forget Dagan, father of Baal, but Baal defeats Yam in 1200BC so 600BC when the Bible was first written he wasn't anything, just the word for sea.

Shachar is Venus. (Morning Star)

Shalim is Salem, Shalom, Jeru-salem.(peace)

Mot means death.

Baal means Prince/Lord, and is an idol also, equal with Tammuz.

Rephaim existed but in the underworld, in Cannanite mythology.

Resheph.


El is God, the only God, El/Elah/Elohim, it's one God.

All else are idols or have been since renamed as angels.

Stories From Ancient Canaan, Second Edition

M.D. Coogan, M.S. Smith

Glossary of Names:

Yamm(Sea) The god of the sea and one of Baal's adversaries. Like Baal's other adversary Mot(Death), Yam is called "El's darling."

Baal is called "Rider on the Clouds."

Kothar wa Hasis is the Biblical Tubal-Cain.

Ugar is a goddess, Hagar deified, also called Gapn, a messenger of Baal always mentioned with Ugar. U in Ugaritic is A in Aramaic-Hebrew, as in Illu/Elah, Patroness of the city.

Ilisha/Elisha is called "The herald god."

It's a primitive version of Biblical mythology and possibly idolatry rectified by the Hebrews, so as to properly worship the Father of the Elohim, El the King, the Compassionate, as he is called.

Danel is a human character in the Ugaritic texts.

a reply to: Disturbinatti

Thanks! After a quick read (i must attend my visitor now ), your brief summary sounds like the same impression I have. I would just add that even Yam isn't traditionally a Jewish deity, he shows up here and there under different aliases, typically as Leviathan or Rahab etc. Mayim may also be Yam, as in Ma-Yam, Shem-ma-Yam could also be others.

Thanks for a neutral and sensible reply!

a reply to: Utnapisjtim


Yeah no prob.

I literally just got the book the other day, happy to share.

It's Canaanite, which is the most influential on Hebrew god names and the language is almost identical, cuneiform but same as Aramaic-Phoenician.

So likely Leviathan is the Biblical equivalent of Yam, and yam downgraded to sea. It also forms part of the name Ben-Yam-in.

Elohim in the opening verse of Genesis refers to the Divine Name assigned to Binah, the third member of the Supernal Triad in the Tree of Life, whilst Elohim in verse 26 refers to the Kabbalistic name of the Order of Angels assigned to Tiphareth in the Tree of Life. This explains why the words "us" and "our" appear in the text, making a nonsense of its false English translation as "God". Understood properly, Genesis asserts that the angels designed the earliest form of Man because they had the task of developing the divine archetypes expressed by the Divine Names and materialising them in all the worlds in Creation. But of course the King James I translators of Genesis would not have been able to countenance the notion that many entities (angels) designed Man, not a single God, and so they incorrectly translated a Hebrew text that clearly makes no sense if the word "Elohim" in verse 26 referred only to the single Creator appearing in verse 1. But it makes plenty of sense once one realises that Genesis is a mystical account of Creation and one needs to understand the subtle differences in the mystical aspects of this process conveyed by the different Names of God - something which was totally lost on the King James I translators of the Old Testament and which remains such today in its modern versions.

The amazing, mathematical meanings of Divine Names like Elohim have now been discovered:
Part 1:
smphillips.mysite.com...(Part%201).pdf
Part 2:
smphillips.mysite.com...(Part%202).pdf

God is a wave


Elohim is a class. It is understood cherubim is a class, not a name, who is making this confusing? Angels are octavial. Elohim is fundamental.



The planetary bodies are particles riding waves. But they are riding the reflected waves off of their own particles, instead of the external input. The waves the particles assume they are detecting are long gone, 1/2 wavelength away, by the time they form an order. Particles keep you in the past. The choice is to keep progressing against aeons, or to worship your own past.

a reply to: sycomix



the script was not meant to be words and stresses/punctuations, but rather a droning, monotone Chant...in my opinion


the El or creation gods were not individuals but more like the 6 Quarks we can identify today


the Genesis god is different than the god that fashioned Adam-Eve, the YHWH god is a Tribal god, the New Testament god is a redeemer/resurrection god and the Allah is the god of this age in contention with the NT god~ with Eschatology to be the end result....

We are all actors in this cosmic drama, most of us are unwilling participants who are the product of 'matter' (matter is derived from the word-concept 'Mother'...hence the long ago Goddess Worship of a Mother-of-creation later overturned by the idea of a Patriarch 'God-Head'...)

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

As a friend, and in the spirit of respectful discussion, I feel that your translation and interpretation of Psalm 82 is a little off; in my humble opinion.


• verse 1: The Hebrew says; "Congregation of El", not; "divine council".

You interpret: "Yam stands before El, his companion; together they judge", however, the words; "companion", "together", and "they" are not included in the Hebrew. Even if we use your; "The-God-Yam" interpretation, it would read; "The-God-Yam stands in the congregation of El, in the midst of The-God-Yam He judges."


• verse 6: The Hebrew says; "You elohim are sons of Elyon", not; "You are gods".

You interpret; "Anu has said, “You are El's Yam, exalted above all the children of El", however, the words; "Anu" and "exalted" are not included in the Hebrew. Furthermore, it appears as though you are using the word "Elyon" twice even though it is mentioned only once. I am assuming that you are using the single "Elyon" as both "exalted" and "children of El"?

The Hebrew actually says: "Elohim (plural) at-tem (plural: you) u-bene (plural: children) Elyon (singular: The Most High) kul-lekem (plural: all)."


• verse 8: You interpret; "Rise again, Yam of El, who judges the Land; you shall inherit the gentiles! However, in verse 1 we read that it is El who judges, and in Deuteronomy, we read that it is Elyon who gave the nation inheritances to the Bene Elohim (we will get to that in a moment).


This is how I interpret Pslam 82:

[Bold brackets are my emphasis]

Psalm 82:1-8

[Neutral narration]
The gods (elohim) stand in the congregation of El. In the midst of the gods (elohim) He [El] judges.

[The elohim asked El]
“How long will you defend the unjust
and show partiality to the wicked? Defend the weak and the fatherless; uphold the cause of the poor and the oppressed? Rescue the weak and the needy; deliver them from the hand of the wicked? They [mankind] know nothing, neither will they understand. They walk in darkness. All the foundations of the Earth are shaken."

[Replied El to the elohim]
"I have told you gods (elohim) that you are all sons of Elyon. But you will die like mere mortals; you will fall like every other ruler.”

[Neutral narration]
Rise up, O God (Elohim), judge the earth, for all the nations are your inheritance.

In Deuteronomy, Elyon disperses the nation inheritances to the Bene Elohim. YHWH was given Israel/Jacob as an inheritance, while the other Sons of El received the other nations. In the Old Testament, there are 70 Nations mentioned in the Table of Nations, and it just so happens that the Canaanite Father God "El" has 70 sons.

Deuteronomy 32:8-9
Version from the Dead Sea Scrolls and Septuagint

"When Elyon (Most High) allotted peoples for inheritance,...

When He divided up the Sons of Adam,...

He fixed the boundaries for peoples,...

According to the number of the Bene Elohim (Sons of El).

But YHWH’s portion is His people,

Jacob (Israel), His own inheritance."

Psalm 29:1

"Ascribe to YHWH, oh Bene Elim (Sons of EL), ascribe to YHWH glory and strength."

Psalm 89:6

"For who in the skies can be compared to YHWH? Who among the Bibne Elim (Sons of EL) is like YHWH?"

All of the talk in the Old Testament about El, Elyon, Elohim, Bene Elohim, Bene Elim, and Bibne Elim is in clear correlation with the Father Of the Gods; "El". Then we have Biblical locations and names such as; "Penuel", "Bethel", "Israel", Gabriel", Michael", Ezekiel", Daniel", etc.

Furthermore, in the New Testament, Jesus was referred to as; Immanuel, and on the cross he cried out to "Eli" and "Eloi".

Conquering belief systems sometimes amalgamate the qualities and mythos of defeated systems. I opine that this is the case with many Biblical Scriptures; a borrowing from the Canaanite, Mesopotamian, Mediterranean, and Indus belief systems. In the relationship between El and YHWH, I often see a correlation with El and Baal-Hadad, not Yam.

When considering the narrative context and Hebrew words, I tend to draw my comparative religious correlations as such:

• Most High
El Elyon (Judaism)
Elyon (Canaanite)
Anu (Mesopotamian)
Anu (Hurrian)
Uranus (Greek)
Caelus (Roman)

Succeeded or Usurped by:

• God the Father
(Elohim [singular, proper] / Anunnaki / Olympians)
El / Elohim (Judaism)
El (Canaanite)
Enlil (Mesopotamian)
Kumarbi (Hurrian)
Cronus (Greek)
Saturn (Roman)

Succeeded or Usurped by:

• Son of God
(B'nei Elohim / Sons of El / Igigi / Titans)
[Sons of God] / [70 Sons of El]
Yahweh (Judaism)
Baal Hadad (Canaanite)
Marduk [Son of Ea/Enki] (Mesopotamian)
Teshub (Hurrian)
Zeus (Greek)
Jupiter (Roman)

(Elohim [plural, proper] / Divine Council Leaders)
(Bible) Elyon, El, Yahweh
(Canaanite) Elyon, El, Baal
(Babylonian) Anu, Enlil, Ea
(Greece) Zeus, Poseidon, Hades

(Divine Courtship)
(El & Asherah), (Yahweh & Asherah)
(El & Athirat), (Baal & Baalat)
(Anu & Ki), (Enlil & Ninlil), (Marduk & Sarpanit)
(Uranus & Gaia), (Cronus & Rhea), (Zeus & Hera)

(elohim [plural, improper])
[Assembly of gods]

a reply to: Disturbinatti

The way I see it, the ancient Hebrews were like the other people of the ME, and Mesopotamia, they adhered to the same pantheons and mythologies, but certain foreign elements they developed in Egypt and Babylonia lead them away from the Family of Gods and started worshipping dominant and despot gods like Jahveh.

However Jahveh or rather JHVH are sword karats, not a god, but they gave war and sword fighting personality. Apply JHVH to the Etz ha-Chayim it is identical with the ancient Templar's «engard karat»:

==> First you command «your inner satan behind you» i.e. you mirror or assume the Tree of Life, becoming it.

==1. Yod is located by your left thigh, where you would have the sword. You lift it (1.) to guard an incoming blow against your general body at position 2. Heh, since most were right handed and the primary blow of most untrained or allied satans (enemies) are against your left shoulder (position Heh). Then your charge is to hew first position 3. Vav, then again quickly position 4. Heh again, only this time not defensive but offensive.

The next four letters if your satan is an ally or is probably friendly, is:

Jod Vav Heh Vav. The two names put together is JJHVVHVV, continue until you have defeated the hashatan or if your sacred battle ends with 72 karats, you ought to take a break and have tea and share your Keneh Bozem and become allies

For the love of your hasatan, here are his defences and approaches against the defending JHVH:

==> 1. Take sword Jod. 2. Offensive charge Vav (against his satan's that is -your), then defensive 3. Heh and 4. Vav.

After that I typically then turn the Etz upside down and sometimes mirror it aswell, depending on the satans style, gaining my en garde position with the sword (or my childhood's peacock feather ) lifted above me head, thus:



El The Yam seems to return with Mem, which symbolises water and seas.

Also, the cross is a symbolic sword, and Jesus and John recruited and taught the Roman legionaries stationed in their areas, that is why Longinus says Jesus is righteous and has already been dead, with reference to John's waterbordering.

a reply to: Sahabi

I don't use lexicons I read the words and translate it in one out of 40 possible translations given the nature of the text basing myself of an alternate lexicon I am working out on the go, it will develop over time. It is not a word by word translation but a translation made from removing the spaces and mesora, and where is says אני in the beginning of 82:6 I translate it not as a verb adhering to the present VSO syntax of modern Hebrew based off of rabbinical post-exile Judaism to fit monotheism, but i believe Hebrew and especially in lyrical poems like psalms of Asaph and Solomon etc. the syntax in poems are often changing to fit meters and things like rhymes and rythm and such, I see Heb אני, not as the conjugated verb I AM, but Ani, as in the God Ani. Etc. Have to return to my Asherah

a reply to: St Udio

Interesting thoughts upon the subject.

a reply to: Sahabi

Your analysis is near perfect, but you use modern atlases for the journey along the «dragons back» i.e. studying the uncut serpent, walking on the devil's back, he will tell you all you need, and he will love you like you love him. He's been cursed for too long already, he was supposed to have been given leave in 100bc, but they created the Talmud to chain him 1000 years. Sonn during the next millennium, we will marry him away, tieing him th the chanins of love, and he will bring back the ark, and the perfect untouched word of god, this isn't me believing, but what the curse said. Shamael has a kosher, Samaritan bible, that Jesus approved. Jesus «is alive», the one living today knows nothing, he is probably named differently even, but he is protected and the 11th one carrying the name Jesus. he is the prince of humankind. That's the # they tell me in dreams, the old built a staircase from ground up to the upper chamber, and sitting down, we shared rainwater and dried crumbs. Wine and steak for the less fortunate. pay resort.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

If what you say is true you have a very convincing argument. Very interesting indeed.

It's was not uncommon for people back then to worship multiple God's or religions. So it wouldn't surprise me that God at one point used to Coexist with the rest of them. Or should I say El and Yam.

During the fall of the angels they do kick a bunch of pagan gods out of heaven as well.

It's almost as if the bible is both the marketing and the historical formation of monotheism. At least that's the purpose of OT in modern bibles.

I'd be very curious to see what may have been omitted. I do love a good read.

a reply to: DiaJax

i believe they changed the lexicon and Hebrew syntax completely, and with an abjad language like Hebrew where everything is written by gematria meter with no spaces or diacritics &c, you can transform the text to say virtually anything depending on the chosen grammar and orthography and where you put the blank spaces and punctuation &c, what sort of diacritics you use and so on.

However the alphabets are rather difficult to change. You could convert the text into a new set of letters, like the change from Paleo-Hebrew, which looks more like runes than anything else, into the current Aramaic square script, you can still not avoid the sounds and symbology they represent. Names too, since the ones carrying them and or living in names' enclosed and defended places, people are ready to fight for their pride and glory, so these words remain. As does the names of deities, and in my opinion, most of these deities' names are to be found in Genesis 1.. To this day there are plenty places in ME named after Baal and the whole array of supposed pagan deities and heroes.

I mean Genesis 1 contains the names of about 17 deities, including the order of four or seven arch rulers of the seven continents.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim



I am almost certain that paleo-Hebrew, at least as a script, never existed.

It's just Aramaic-Phoenician, which share a script, mythology and geography as well as history with the Hebrews, Israelites and Judahites.


Side note:

I read the Zohar so today I noticed Reuben is spelled:

Reuven.

Aleph/A is E, it's up to the transliterator to decide which to use. Vav/V, is U/W and sometimes B because of pronunciation.

V can be B, A is E.

Rabban is a perfect transliteration from the Hebrew-Aramaic language, means "Master" and is the Rabban.

As in "Master race", a one up from ''Chosen People."

Judaism or Ruebenism???

Reubinical Judaism is the Talmud which places the wise man above the Prophet in preferability, and makes Rabbis the master of the Torah, however they interpret it is more important than what Isaiah (p) actually meant.

More important than what GOD means.

One tale has a Rabbi debate ''God" and WIN!

Such arrogance!

People say the religion of the Canaanites/Phoenicians was evil but the mythology doesn't testify to that notion, no human sacrifice, no infant sacrifice, just the God and gods of the Bible before the Bible existed, and the Bible is like NC-17 compared with the Qur'an and let's say PG.

But the Talmud is like the literary genre that was replaced with snuff films and other sorts of debauchery, racism, and if you swapped Jew and goy every time the words are mentioned it would have been a great example of Nazi ideology.

"Only the Jew has a soul, the goy is a beast of the field."

Saith the Talmud.

It's exactly the opposite of what the Nazis believed.

Deuteronomy 32:8

This is from memory.

When El Elyon divided the nation's according to the number (70) of the Sons of El, YHVH's inheritance was His people, Israel his lot.


So YHVH is seen here as a son of El.

Yam He can't be, if anything YHVH is Baal, the ''Rider on the Clouds.

I actually know that YHVH is Phoenician in origin, in Greek IAO, pronounced Yaho.

Isaiah is Yeshayahu in Hebrew.

Yahu. Yaho in Greek.

As Sahabi displayed​ names ending in El all come from El/God.

When Canaan ceased to be Canaan and re-emerged as the Phoenician people, they gave their deity a new Shem/Name, YaHUH.

They are represented as the Northern pagan tribes in the Bible, under Solomon, who is intimate with Hiram of Tyre and Hiram the builder, Phoenicians.

Judah is represented as the good tribe who worships God alone.

But fact is Judah ben Ya'akov/Israel married 3 Canaanite wives and his sons followed in his steps.

So anyone who is a Judahite is also Canaanite.

See: Talmud, Will of Canaan.

a reply to: Sahabi

I still have a visitor, so my replies will probably be a bit fragmented and brief.

The isdea that Jesus was supposed to be Immanuel is bollocks imo. Jesus was named after Isaiah (which is in all simplicity) the same name as Jesus. The virgin and the two kings involved shows the age of the zodiac. From Virgo (the virgin) to Gemini (the twins) there are nine months, the length of a pregnancy. Immanuel was actually Isaiah's son, and the prophecy is about him, not Joseph or Jesus, Joseph was simply inspired to name Jesus after Isaiah. Hosea and Joshua are also variants of the same name.

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

Mike Heiser had a interesting podcast that you or others might find helpful .

In this episode Dr. Heiser talks to the men behind a new translation project, John Hobbins and Samuel Bray. The first volume of their effort is entitled Genesis 1-11: A New Old Translation for Readers, Scholars, and Translators. Our discussion focuses on the translation enterprise – what translators need to think about as they do their work. The strength of this new project is its thorough documentation by the translators of what and how they were thinking during the process of producing their translation. Over 130 pages of notes about the Hebrew text and its translation issues accompany the translation. The work comes highly recommended, and Naked Bible Podcast listeners can purchase the resource at a discount.

www.nakedbiblepodcast.com... There are 125 pages of foot notes that give reasons for their choices . The podcast touches a bit on it and gives samples .

a reply to: Utnapisjtim

El was Yam's father and together they fought side by side as enemies of Baal who was the Old Testament Devil, I bet you have at least heard of the latter.

Exo 20:2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
Exo 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

That has been tried many times before you were even thought of. The best thing to do is to slip it into the Quran or perhaps write your own bible.