Alien Sky: The Lightning Scarred Planet, Mars (Full Documentary)

a reply to: Astyanax

People on drugs claiming they know better than people who went to the trouble of getting an education. Goodness gracious, I must be on ATS.

So would you be willing to answer some questions about gravity?

a reply to: BakedCrusader

That would depend on who was asking, and what the question was.

a reply to: BakedCrusader

Go to the roof of a tall building jump of and think about gravity on the way down.

originally posted by: Astyanax
a reply to: BakedCrusader

That would depend on who was asking, and what the question was.

Why the criteria?

If I ask you any question about gravity, will you respond to it or not?

originally posted by: wmd_2008
a reply to: BakedCrusader

Go to the roof of a tall building jump of and think about gravity on the way down.

Because this proves that there is a force that pulls all matter down to the center of the Earth? And you are telling me to kill myself for asking someone if he is willing to answer some questions about gravity?

So can I ask you some questions about gravity?

So you admit gravity exists thats a start.


en.m.wikipedia.org... reply to: BakedCrusader

originally posted by: booyakasha
It really surprises me when people say there is no evidence for the electric universe. A lot of the predictions made by electric universe theorists have proven to be true

I've read about those "predictions", they seem more like hedged bets to me. "Oh look, the impact produced a flash, this proves our theory, because that flash was electric." That's not how science makes and tests predictions.

All of the so-called EU proven predictions can be explained by mainstream theories.

a reply to: wmd_2008

I didn't admit that gravity exists, I asked if the fact that I would accelerate towards the surface proves that there is a force that pulls all matter down towards the center of the Earth.

I don't see why you post a link to wikipedia when I asked if you were willing to answer a question I didn't ask yet.

a reply to: BakedCrusader

I didn't admit that gravity exists, I asked if the fact that I would accelerate towards the surface proves that there is a force that pulls all matter down towards the center of the Earth.

Is this your question? How are you defining 'a force'?

a reply to: Astyanax

No my question to you is why do some things, like a helium or hot air balloon, go up, if gravity is pulling down on all matter?

a reply to: BakedCrusader


gravity is a very weak force. the entire mass of the earth cannot overcome a tiny magnet holding up a chunk of metal, or an ant carrying a leaf. Doesn't mean the gravity isn't there, just that its weaker.


In your two mentions, helium and hot air balloons (and lets assume you mean only in the open atmosphere)
, they are both less desne than the surrounding medium, and therefore experience a pressure differential which is literally pushing them upwards -to an area of equal pressure (equilibrium) - against the weak gravity.


Now, put your hot air balloon in a closed environment the same, or higher temperature than the gas in the balloon, and it will sink (or just float relatively stably is the temperature is the same, not including any bucket or encasement weight) because there is no pressure differential to overcome the weak gravity force.


Put helium in a helium medium, nothing out of the ordinary will happen

a reply to: MasterAtArms

gravity is a very weak force. the entire mass of the earth cannot overcome a tiny magnet holding up a chunk of metal, or an ant carrying a leaf. Doesn't mean the gravity isn't there, just that its weaker.

But that's just one of the problems isn't it. Gravity is strong enough to keep the atmosphere from being sucked into the vacuum of space, even though it gets weaker by the distance, yet even near the surface a vacuum is strong enough to suck up air and even solid objects.

How does gravity protect the atmosphere from the vacuum of space again?

In your two mentions, helium and hot air balloons (and lets assume you mean only in the open atmosphere) , they are both less desne than the surrounding medium, and therefore experience a pressure differential which is literally pushing them upwards -to an area of equal pressure (equilibrium) - against the weak gravity.

Yes and this creates the problem that I was getting at.

The claim is that the pressure gradient makes the helium balloon go up. So what exactly is pushing against the bottom of the balloon?

This would have to be the air below it, and this air must be travelling up if it is pushing the balloon up.

So why is the air travelling up, if it is? It is as dense as the air around it, and denser than the air above it.

If air is not travelling up, what is pushing the balloon?

a reply to: BakedCrusader

But that's just one of the problems isn't it. Gravity is strong enough to keep the atmosphere from being sucked into the vacuum of space, even though it gets weaker by the distance, yet even near the surface a vacuum is strong enough to suck up air and even solid objects

I think you are overestimating the mass of the atmosphere - there is a reason it is denser the lower you go. Although gravity is weak, gas has a very, very low mass. The higher up you go,. and at the highest points of what you can call atmosphere it *almost* isn't even there its so thin. The atmosphere / space interface isn't a definite line where suddenly it stops - it just gets thinner and thinner and thinner

this air must be travelling up if it is pushing the balloon up.

Hold a ping pong ball underwater and let it go. Is the water underneath the ball moving upwards? its exactly the same principle. The only movement of the air is to fill in the gap where the hot air balloon *was*. Another way to think of this - the pressure gradient isn't the air imparting a motive force on the object itself in a direct way. It is trying to crush it because it is lower pressure, so in the act of crushing the gas has to go somewhere, hence the movement.

Imagine one of those long balloons clowns make animals from. Fill it with water (for ease of demonstration). Now, since you also agree that air density increases the closer you get to the surface, grab the bottom of the balloon and squeeze. The water expands upwards. Now, while holding the bottom of the balloon still, grab the next handful of balloon and squeeze just a little less (because you are simulating slightly lower pressure a bit higher up). The water still goes UP


Anyway, why are you trying to use very well understood physics, with hard math that can precisely predict such actions that isn't even anything to do with gravity, to disprove gravity?

a reply to: MasterAtArms

I think you are overestimating the mass of the atmosphere - there is a reason it is denser the lower you go. Although gravity is weak, gas has a very, very low mass. The higher up you go,. and at the highest points of what you can call atmosphere it *almost* isn't even there its so thin. The atmosphere / space interface isn't a definite line where suddenly it stops - it just gets thinner and thinner and thinner

No, gravity is not strong enough to keep air or even solid objects from being sucked into a vacuum, so what is keeping the vacuum of space from sucking up the entire atmosphere, especially on the edge of space where gravity is even weaker?

You can't explain this.

originally posted by: BakedCrusader
a reply to: MasterAtArms

I think you are overestimating the mass of the atmosphere - there is a reason it is denser the lower you go. Although gravity is weak, gas has a very, very low mass. The higher up you go,. and at the highest points of what you can call atmosphere it *almost* isn't even there its so thin. The atmosphere / space interface isn't a definite line where suddenly it stops - it just gets thinner and thinner and thinner

No, gravity is not strong enough to keep air or even solid objects from being sucked into a vacuum, so what is keeping the vacuum of space from sucking up the entire atmosphere, especially on the edge of space where gravity is even weaker?

You can't explain this.

vacuums do not "suck". If they did, planets, stars, nothing could ever form. They are simply an absence of stuff. Gravity, although weak, is more than strong enough to keep gas molecules in proximity in the absence of other "stuff". If this were not this case, simply put, you would not exist, and neither would anything else. Heck, water surface tension is enough to keep water together in a vacuum

a reply to: MasterAtArms

Hold a ping pong ball underwater and let it go. Is the water underneath the ball moving upwards? its exactly the same principle. The only movement of the air is to fill in the gap where the hot air balloon *was*. Another way to think of this - the pressure gradient isn't the air imparting a motive force on the object itself in a direct way. It is trying to crush it because it is lower pressure, so in the act of crushing the gas has to go somewhere, hence the movement.

My point is that obviously the air or water itself is not going up. So what is phyically pushing against the balloon? With what force is it doing the "crushing" then?

You do realize that pressure is created because partcles are pushing against particles?

Imagine one of those long balloons clowns make animals from. Fill it with water (for ease of demonstration). Now, since you also agree that air density increases the closer you get to the surface, grab the bottom of the balloon and squeeze. The water expands upwards. Now, while holding the bottom of the balloon still, grab the next handful of balloon and squeeze just a little less (because you are simulating slightly lower pressure a bit higher up). The water still goes UP

The water is going up because you are pushing it up with your fingers, and the water itself pushes the rest of the water up.

So what represents your fingers in the case of a helium balloon that is being pushed up?

a reply to: MasterAtArms

vacuums do not "suck".

That's a mattter of persepective and semantics. It is not relevant to the point I made.

If they did, planets, stars, nothing could ever form. They are simply an absence of stuff. Gravity, although weak, is more than strong enough to keep gas molecules in proximity in the absence of other "stuff". If this were not this case, simply put, you would not exist, and neither would anything else. Heck, water surface tension is enough to keep water together in a vacuum

No gravity is not strong enough. A vacuum cleaner proves this. It overcomes the force of gravity when it sucks up air or solid objects.

originally posted by: BakedCrusader
a reply to: MasterAtArms

vacuums do not "suck".

That's a mattter of persepective and semantics. It is not relevant to the point I made.

Its entirely relevant when you say that very word

air or even solid objects from being sucked into a vacuum

originally posted by: BakedCrusader
a reply to: MasterAtArms

Hold a ping pong ball underwater and let it go. Is the water underneath the ball moving upwards? its exactly the same principle. The only movement of the air is to fill in the gap where the hot air balloon *was*. Another way to think of this - the pressure gradient isn't the air imparting a motive force on the object itself in a direct way. It is trying to crush it because it is lower pressure, so in the act of crushing the gas has to go somewhere, hence the movement.

My point is that obviously the air or water itself is not going up. So what is phyically pushing against the balloon? With what force is it doing the "crushing" then?

You do realize that pressure is created because partcles are pushing against particles?

Imagine one of those long balloons clowns make animals from. Fill it with water (for ease of demonstration). Now, since you also agree that air density increases the closer you get to the surface, grab the bottom of the balloon and squeeze. The water expands upwards. Now, while holding the bottom of the balloon still, grab the next handful of balloon and squeeze just a little less (because you are simulating slightly lower pressure a bit higher up). The water still goes UP

The water is going up because you are pushing it up with your fingers, and the water itself pushes the rest of the water up.

So what represents your fingers in the case of a helium balloon that is being pushed up?

I don't think you understand how pressure works, or how your example is entirely not-relevant to the point you think you are trying to make

No gravity is not strong enough. A vacuum cleaner proves this. It overcomes the force of gravity when it sucks up air or solid objects.

A vacuum cleaner is a pressure differential machine. So is an internal combustion engine, jet engines, breathing, farting.... None of which are weaker than the weak gravitation force and therefore easily overcome it.

~but~ just because gravity is weak, doesn't mean it has zero effect

a reply to: MasterAtArms

Heck, water surface tension is enough to keep water together in a vacuum

In this example the water is in the vacuum itself so it doesn't get "sucked", in the case of the Earth you have a vacuum that is next to pressurised air. Big difference.