Signal Boosting - Trans boy Gavin Grimm and the SCOTUS

originally posted by: DupontDeux

A somewhat typical example of a transgender is born-girl saying that she feels like a boy and not a girl. That intails two claims:

Claim A) ...

Claim B)...


If you insist that you are not confusing it with gender roles and that you in a total collapse of reasoning and logic "just know", then you are bordering on showing the same detachment from reality that schizophrenics can show - they "just now" a satellite is watching them, they "just now"they have alien DNA.

I don't think I've ever said to anyone that I "feel like a girl" or that I "think like a girl". By your reasoning, all girls feel and think only one way or that any girl/woman, boy/man can say how any other thinks or feels. You know yourself to be a man and why is that? Because you have a penis or you know just because reasons? What is your frame of reference and if you lost your genitals or due to intersex conditions were born without or with ambiguous ones, would you still believe yourself to be a man? This is not a disconnect from reality, it IS your reality.

Besides that, one of the criteria in diagnosing gender dysphoria in children is that they say persistently, consistently and insistently over time that they ARE girls or boys, not "feels like" or "wants to be". In my case, I've always known myself to be a girl in heart and soul - just because. No justification or explanation for anyone else needed. This is my reality that has never changed throughout my life even though I was born male bodied. The way I think and feel is my point of reference because I AM a girl and always have been. There's no disconnect with reality there, at least not my reality and the only incongruities experienced in that reality has been anatomy but that was fixable.

For what it's worth, this has nothing to do with traditional gender roles/ behaviors and even gender expression even though you seem to want to separate those things as a distinct separate entities from gender identity/sense of self. There's a lot of overlap you are discounting while failing to see the nuance of personality.

homosexualism

?? Making up words are we?

originally posted by: Anathros
Edit: This is a sarcastic post to add levity to the conversation. I mean no disrespect the OP as I know they have had a life full of hurdles regarding the subject matter.

Gender dysphoria is pretty ridiculous and worth a laugh from time to time although it isn't really a joking matter for those struggling with it or killing themselves because of it. Had I not been born male bodied and grown up to be a girl and lived my entire adult life as a woman, I probably wouldn't believe it was a real thing myself. Make no mistake though, my struggles were in childhood culminating in my teen years of transition. Beyond that, my life has been happy, rewarding and fulfilled and being trans and trans "hurdles" not something I've had to deal with much past the age of 18 and that was 44 years ago.

The only hurdles that remain in my life are trying to educate the uninformed on this silly message board. Otherwise, while being trans and changing sex is part of my history, it has very little, if anything to do with my day-to-day life beyond my online advocacy for trans children in this venue only, especially since this isn't something people outside of my immediate family even knows about me. It is a private matter I don't share with others but have opened up about it here to help people have a better understanding of it all.

Thank you for your attempts at adding levity. No disrespect taken but there are other trans people here and as Kettu pointed out above, most people don't have any experience with trans folks and for those that do want to learn and understand, it would behoove you all to take the opportunity to listen. I may not be the end all, be all fountain of knowledge and everyone's experience of being trans is different and I don't speak for everyone but many do consider me to be an elder that does know a hell of a lot about all this.

This thread isn't about me but if I can relate some of my experiences or answer questions so that others will better understand trans issues and perspectives, then that's what I'll do. It does get a little tough to be put on the defensive and called mentally ill etc., but if it helps people understand transgender children so that they don't have to go through the things i did as a kid, I will endure.

Go Gavin!

I'm a man. I was born a man, and if I was asked -- I would say, "yes, I feel like man".

I don't ask myself if I "feel" like a man, or think like man. Why? Because those things are inherently true, and I know they are.

However, if I try, I can mentally place myself into the shoes of someone else who isn't so certain. Maybe I find that I like clothing, books, music, television shows and movies that are normally associated with women. Maybe everything else that males seem to enjoy doing I don't find enjoyable.

Maybe the kinds of things I think about seem to align with what women think about, instead of what men think about. Perhaps I find that my mental processes seem to be more female than male. There are distinct differences between the sexes, and beyond clothing and sexual attraction these mindsets and mental outlooks become more apparent with age.

Maybe if I'm around other men, I find I'm uncomfortable but find I'm totally comfortable around groups of women.

All it takes is a little bit of emotional intelligence and empathy to try and visualize the world transgendered individuals exist in. If even a small portion of what I imagine their lives must be like, the world is a scary place -- especially considering the attitude most have for transgendered individuals.

originally posted by: Kettu
I don't ask myself if I "feel" like a man, or think like man. Why? Because those things are inherently true, and I know they are.

Precisely and well said. It also perhaps explains why it is so difficult to say how you know what you are. That you "just do" doesn't seem to be a sufficient answer for some and gets called a "disconnect from reality" by others because it can't adequately be verbalized.

All it takes is a little bit of emotional intelligence and empathy to try and visualize the world transgender[ed] individuals exist in. If even a small portion of what I imagine their lives must be like, the world is a scary place -- especially considering the attitude most have for transgender[ed] individuals.

Try to imagine being the parents of a transgender child and trying to raise them in these times when it does seem like so many have been whipped into a frenzy of made up bathroom predators with the attitudes that their children are broken or mentally ill or that the parents themselves are to blame for their child's problems. It's easy for people on the outside looking in to offer opinions and boy do they ever but in most cases, they are completely wrong and unable even to grasp the complexities and challenges of the situation.

You want your kid's lives to be as normal as possible. For them to get an education and have memorable social experiences in school with the same opportunities as any other child. It makes it tough when all so many other people are only concerned about what's between your child's legs as if talking about a kids genitalia is even an okay thing to do. I swear if natal boys and girls had to face the same scrutiny, stigmatization and ostracization as transgender kids do, their parents would be having a complete meltdown.

When it comes to these kids themselves, I can't really relate to the way things are for students today because my experiences of growing up in the 1960's and early 70's were very different. I do know how I would have liked things to be and certainly can relate 100% with the deep pain of having gender dysphoria and how the perceptions of others can have effect on one's psyche and mental health - that hasn't changed. Because of the things I went through as a kid, it's only because the guidance and support that I had that I didn't grow up to be a completely screwed up adult or that I even made it to adulthood, period. I know what it takes to thrive and be happy. I know the things that harm transgender children firsthand and that treating them like other, treating them like freaks and singling them out as different are things high on the list of things not to do if we want them to grow up healthy and productive adults.

It doesn't need to be this way. It shouldn't be this way. As evidenced by the support Gavin Grimm has received for his Supreme Court battle, many others are finally showing they know this to be true as well. This shouldn't be and isn't a political or religious issue. It's a matter of doing what's right for children with some unique needs which aren't all that much different from the needs of any child - respect, dignity and the chance to grow up with equal opportunities.

Thank you, Kettu, for your participation. Same for others as well, even the detractors because these are the dialogs that need to be had. I may not be the most eloquent communicator but if my empathy and understanding can get across and be seen by others, maybe some of it will rub off?

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: DupontDeux

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: Anathros
I have an older gay brother and for the life of me, after 25 years of him being "out of the closet" I still believe it is a mental disorder. I think the transgender issue is too. No different than schizophrenia or bipolar disorder. I do not think male brains end up in female bodies or vice versa but that's just my opinion.

WHY?

Why do you think that?

A somewhat typical example of a transgender is born-girl saying that she feels like a boy and not a girl. That intails two claims:

Claim A)

"I do not feel like a girl."

Well how do you know? If you do not feel like a girl you lack that reference point, and thus you cannot tell, that you do not feel like a girl. If you base your believe on external experiences like typical behavioral patterns of other girls, well, then odds are that you are confusing gender with traditional gender roles.

Claim B)

"I feel like a boy"

Well how do you know? If you are not a boy you lack that reference point, and thus you cannot tell, that you do feel like a boy. If you base your believe on external experiences like typical behavioral patterns of boys, well, then odds are that you are confusing gender with traditional gender roles.

If you insist that you are not confusing it with gender roles and that you in a total collapse of reasoning and logic "just know", then you are bordering on showing the same detachment from reality that schizophrenics can show - they "just now" a satellite is watching them, they "just now"they have alien DNA.

But that is the transgender thing - I do not agree about homosexualism being a mental disorder. There is no evidence for that. There is no collapse of logic and reasoning. There is simply an attraction to members of one own sex.

It is not that I can't follow the logic, though, of those that reasons that it is a deviation that limits procreation and that it must be a disorder since attraction is not a choice, and since the species relies on attraction to 'right' sex for its survival - but who is to say homosexualism is not simply nature's way of limiting the population for the greater good of the species? And if it is, then homesexualism is a mechanism, an important one even, and not a disorder.

Guess what --- I believe those who actually experienced Gender Dysphoria.

That includes parents, as well as child/adolescent/teen/adult actually experiencing Gender Dysphoria.

Not ignorant armchair opinions --- that create a belief they feel comfortable accepting.

Yeah?
Believe what?

Gender Dysphoria is a mental disorder under DSM-5, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, 5th Edition. Its symptoms in many ways is reminiscent of schizophrenia.

My argument, though, is not that transgenders ARE schizophrenic, but that a refusal to accept the constraints of reality - such as what one can and cannot know - makes one appear not unlike a schizophrenic. There is a difference in accepting that the feeling as real and in denying the logical 'disconnect. I know transgenders who have no problem accepting that what and how they feel defies logic and reason - just as I accept that that does not make it less real.

Actually, if you reread my post you might notice that is not about homesoexuals or transgenders are sufering from mental disorders, but about why some might perceive them to be.

a reply to: Freija

Going to wrestle with semantics are we? Aspects of gender expression/performance and societal expectations of gender roles are to a degree social constructs but a person's in-born disposition and one's internalized sense of what gender they are aren't. You've been listening to too much feminist claptrap with all this social construct business!

I am not really wrestling with semantics, no, I am making a comment on those that do.

Surely you MUST know that many, many arguments between the two parties DOES wrestle with semantics, and you surely MUST know, that any supreme court case WILL wrestle with semantics?

I simply find it amusing that both sides are better off taking the other side's position.

originally posted by: DupontDeux
Gender Dysphoria is a mental disorder under DSM-5, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, 5th Edition.

Gender dysphoria has it's own section in the DSM-5 but it has been de-pathologized and is no longer considered a disorder but rather a normally occurring variance in the human condition. Stop spreading misinformation because it fits your agenda. The only reason it's still even in the DSM is that the medical treatment requires some sort of diagnosis and billing codes and such. Once the science and technology progresses, I firmly believe the causes of gender dysphoria will be determined to be a neurobiological issue of prenatal brain development. The vast preponderance of evidence already strongly points in that direction. Linked before but see the thread: Neurobiology of Transgender

Its symptoms in many ways is reminiscent of schizophrenia.

I highly doubt you're qualified to diagnose that either.

I know transgenders who have no problem accepting that what and how they feel defies logic and reason

Sure you do. I will agree though that it is the damndest thing and does defy logic and reason but I can guarantee you logic and reason has little to do with what comes from the heart and deep within the soul. Love and attractions defy logic and reason most often too but it still happens and is real.

Actually, if you reread my post you might notice that is not about homesoexuals [sic] or transgenders [sic] are sufering [sic] from mental disorders, but about why some might perceive them to be.

So are you now trying to backpedal? Regardless of how you worded things, you attitudes come through loud and clear. Maybe you're just practicing creative spelling and grammar?

a reply to: Anathros

Do you understand that having an opinion is only relevant to a topic if that opinion is informed by some kind of understanding of the topic, out side of being someone who can say that they "have and older gay brother"?

Science takes your opinion, and makes an absolute nonsense of it, and unless you are telling me that untold myriads of professional psychologists, neurologists, and experts on genetics and physiology are wrong when they say that your opinion has about as much to do with the facts, as anthrax spores do with a healthy respiratory system, it might be time to make your opinion match the best information we have, not the worst?

Just a thought.

OH GODAMMIT TO HELL!

Those chickensh#t bastards!

WASHINGTON (AP) — The Supreme Court is returning a transgender teen's case to a lower court without reaching a decision.

The justices said Monday they have opted not to decide whether federal anti-discrimination law gives high school senior Gavin Grimm the right to use the boys' bathroom in his Virginia school.

The case had been scheduled for argument in late March. Instead, a lower court in Virginia will be tasked with evaluating the federal law known as title IX and the extent to which it applies to transgender students.

Supreme Court Ducks Big Transgender Rights Case — Thanks To The Trump Administration

That's okay folks. We don't matter but from now on, I'm advising trans kids to just piss on the sidewalk. It certainly won't make people think any less of us.

Needless to say I am effing pissed off. Thanks Trump.

originally posted by: Freija
That's okay folks. We don't matter but from now on, I'm advising trans kids to just piss on the sidewalk. It certainly won't make people think any less of us.

Needless to say I am effing pissed off. Thanks Trump.

Why not? Maybe if kids have to piss on sidewalks for their own safety, other nations might grant them refugee status. It might get that bad.

a reply to: Freija

Yes, this is a setback and discouraging, but remember that the Supreme Court waited a while before agreeing to rule on marriage equality for gays. They like to wait to see how the general population (and the lower courts) is trending. The DOMA act slowed things down, but look what happened eventually.

Our job (those of us who want equal treatment for all) is to not give up. We keep up the educating, we keep up the protesting, we keep up the pressure on states and businesses that discriminate, we keep up the lawsuits. We've seen with marriage equality that these strategies DO work - they just take some time.

originally posted by: kaylaluv
Our job (those of us who want equal treatment for all) is to not give up. We keep up the educating, we keep up the protesting, we keep up the pressure on states and businesses that discriminate, we keep up the lawsuits. We've seen with marriage equality that these strategies DO work - they just take some time.

This is true but today I am just going to cry along with my kids. I think that's okay.

One struggle. One fight.

originally posted by: Abysha

originally posted by: Anathros
I have an older gay brother and for the life of me, after 25 years of him being "out of the closet" I still believe it is a mental disorder. I think the transgender issue is too. No different than schizophrenia or bipolar disorder. I do not think male brains end up in female bodies or vice versa but that's just my opinion.

I'm going to guess you don't believe in a lot of things that an overwhelming consensus of doctors/scientists agree on. Like global warming, vaccines, etc.

when I was working on my Bachelors in Psychology in the early 80's homosexuality was an ICD9CM recognized disease
Then somebody decided it wasn't a mental disease any more? Sorry, still a mental disease

originally posted by: Anathros

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: Anathros
I have an older gay brother and for the life of me, after 25 years of him being "out of the closet" I still believe it is a mental disorder. I think the transgender issue is too. No different than schizophrenia or bipolar disorder. I do not think male brains end up in female bodies or vice versa but that's just my opinion.

WHY?

Why do you think that?

It is what I believe. I don't have a doctorate but I also don't need one to see abnormal behavior and to arrive at a conclusion. I know the sky is blue and I know that a penis is made for a vagina for procreation to take place. These aren't things I need explained to me. I simply know them to be true. Nature screws up as far as abnormalities such as deformations but the wrong brain in wrong body..I'll leave that for the pseudoscience doctors that make money off selling hormones and performing sex changes to debate.

a you may want to brush up on that non-degree. And FYI, the sky isn't always blue

originally posted by: Rookseven

originally posted by: Anathros

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: Anathros
I have an older gay brother and for the life of me, after 25 years of him being "out of the closet" I still believe it is a mental disorder. I think the transgender issue is too. No different than schizophrenia or bipolar disorder. I do not think male brains end up in female bodies or vice versa but that's just my opinion.

WHY?

Why do you think that?

It is what I believe. I don't have a doctorate but I also don't need one to see abnormal behavior and to arrive at a conclusion. I know the sky is blue and I know that a penis is made for a vagina for procreation to take place. These aren't things I need explained to me. I simply know them to be true. Nature screws up as far as abnormalities such as deformations but the wrong brain in wrong body..I'll leave that for the pseudoscience doctors that make money off selling hormones and performing sex changes to debate.

a you may want to brush up on that non-degree. And FYI, the sky isn't always blue

Granted. All that said, it's just my opinion. I don't expect everyone to share it and I don't go around pushing it off on others. Those types of opinions are better left for those with an agenda. I don't care if Joe Schmo wants to tuck his penis and pretend to be Mary Poppins because he feels more like a Disney character than Joe. That's an issue for Joe. Same goes for Jane. I say live and let live and hold no ill will for either but I still say the behavior points to a mental illness. No need to be offended or on the defensive. I'm just a simple man that sees most things as black and white with very few gray areas.

originally posted by: acackohfcc

originally posted by: Abysha

originally posted by: Anathros
I have an older gay brother and for the life of me, after 25 years of him being "out of the closet" I still believe it is a mental disorder. I think the transgender issue is too. No different than schizophrenia or bipolar disorder. I do not think male brains end up in female bodies or vice versa but that's just my opinion.

I'm going to guess you don't believe in a lot of things that an overwhelming consensus of doctors/scientists agree on. Like global warming, vaccines, etc.

when I was working on my Bachelors in Psychology in the early 80's homosexuality was an ICD9CM recognized disease
Then somebody decided it wasn't a mental disease any more? Sorry, still a mental disease

Totally get where you're coming from because we all know for a fact that decades-old medical science is the best to stick with!