Signal Boosting - Trans boy Gavin Grimm and the SCOTUS

Disclaimer/Caveat:I am an advocate and ally to the cause of transgender children. I myself was trans as a child and teenager and even at 62 years of age this is something still very dear to my heart and an issue I am most passionate about. I'd prefer this thread not be about opinions and conjecture on the basis or morality of transsexualism nor about fear-mongering predation in the bathroom. It is intended to be about human rights, civil rights, dignity, inclusiveness, equality and doing what is right for children facing some very difficult challenges in life that just want to get an education and be treated like everyone else.



Background - Gavin Grimm, a now 17-year old transgender Virginia high school senior is fighting for the right to use the school restrooms that align with who he is as a person. As a sophomore, he used the boys bathroom for two months until parents got wind of this and complained. Lawsuits ensued and escalated and later this month, his case is set to go in front of the Supreme Court.


Initially, the Gloucester County school board was sued and Grimm lost. The case was then appealed to the Federal Fourth Circuit Court and Grimm won but that decision was contested and during resolution, Grimm still can't use the boys room. His case is now going before the SCOTUS on March 28 with a decision expected by July. At stake is if gender identity falls under sex discrimination as outlined under Title IX of the Education Amendments of 1972 and more broadly, Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

There seems to be widespread popular support for Gavin

Unions Representing Millions Of Teachers Are Standing Up For This Transgender Student

Nearly 2,000 Religious Leaders Declare Support For Transgender Teen In Supreme Court Case

53 Major Companies Voice Support For Transgender Teen Ahead Of Supreme Court Case

Both Sides In Transgender Battle Want The Supreme Court To Make Its Decision

Briefs Flood Supreme Court in Support of Gavin Grimm

Among the amicus briefs submitted to the court for Grimm were arguments from nearly 200 members of Congress, more than 60 current and former police chiefs and sheriffs, over 30 U.S. cities, the National Education Association, the National Parent-Teacher Association (PTA), the American School Counselor Association, National Association of School Psychologists, the NAACP, the Anti-Defamation League, leading LGBTQ nonprofits, dozens of major corporations and over 100 transgender adults from various professions.

All of the groups argued the same thing: Transgender students like Grimm should be given equal protection under the law.

18 States Just Stood Up For Transgender Students At The Supreme Court

There are several ways this can go and there's a lot at stake. The Supreme Court can defer their decision back to the lower courts or it can be a split 4 to 4 decision and the ruling from the Fourth Circuit will stand. The bigger picture, however, is whether Title IX of the Education Amendments of 1972, which bans discrimination on the basis of sex, also bans discrimination on the basis of gender identity. A ruling that holds Title IX does ban transgender discrimination could provide “a crucial additional tool for ensuring equality by guaranteeing that transgender people can travel freely across State lines without fearing discrimination by educational institutions receiving federal funds.

My experience here is that for many, the idea of transgender kids being able to use the bathroom that's best for them makes heads explode and brains melt down and there are plenty of other threads around here to express your faux outrage and make-believe scenarios and I didn't start this thread to be an avenue for that.

The reason I did start this thread is to bring to light the viewpoint of a highly stigmatized and poorly understood minority and how these issues are seen as ones of basic human rights and dignity, civil rights and equality.

Although I was of trans experience myself as a youth, I am privileged and relatively isolated from anti-trans bathroom legislation. I have lived my entire adult life as a woman and am female bodied so these are not my worries BUT the attitudes of some people here and impressions I get from this current administration is that they wish transgender people would just go away or that they have no right to public spaces. This doesn't make me feel very good and in fact is quite depressing and I hope like hell the Supreme Court does the right thing for Gavin and the 150,000 to 200,000 kids like him in schools today that just want to get an education without all these distractions and people talking about what's between their legs.

Transgender kids have enough on their plates without having to worry about being dehumanized, stigmatized and disrespected just because they have to pee. I join the corporations, religious leaders, unions, States and others in support of Gavin Grimm and other transgender kids throughout this nation. Not doing so would be complicity with oppression and I wasn't raised that way.




Thanks for reading.

I have an older gay brother and for the life of me, after 25 years of him being "out of the closet" I still believe it is a mental disorder. I think the transgender issue is too. No different than schizophrenia or bipolar disorder. I do not think male brains end up in female bodies or vice versa but that's just my opinion.

originally posted by: Anathros
I have an older gay brother and for the life of me, after 25 years of him being "out of the closet" I still believe it is a mental disorder. I think the transgender issue is too. No different than schizophrenia or bipolar disorder. I do not think male brains end up in female bodies or vice versa but that's just my opinion.

I'm going to guess you don't believe in a lot of things that an overwhelming consensus of doctors/scientists agree on. Like global warming, vaccines, etc.

If it was just about this one kid, then sure whatever.

But, for everybody else, where do you draw the line? Is there some kind of trans ID card, or can any creeper just claim to be trans and share the bathroom with my kids?

a reply to: Freija

The bigger picture, however, is whether Title IX of the Education Amendments of 1972, which bans discrimination on the basis of sex, also bans discrimination on the basis of gender identity.

This is a sort of amusing aspect of the coming court case:

According to 'every' transgender out there, sex and gender (and gender identity) are definitely not the same. They have argued for the longest time that gender is a social construct independent of the concept of sex, and that is why there is no valid reason that there can only be two genders.

On the other hand 'every' opponent of transgenderism have for years argued the opposite; that the transgender movement have hijacked the term and that it actually means the exact same as sex, that it is biological, and that there is only two sexes and a bunch of genetic freaks.

I am looking forward to see if the two parties switch positions on that for this case, because both have a better case if they do.

If sex is a strictly biological thing, and gender is a social construct independent of the concept of sex, then Title IX pretty clearly deal with biological equality.

This will be fun.

a reply to: Freija

Transgender kids have enough on their plates without having to worry about being dehumanized, stigmatized and disrespected just because they have to pee.

Those poor kids. Being a teenager is hard enough, without having the added burden of gender issues. Issues isn't really the word I want there, I just don't think there's a word that fits how difficult life must be, when the body and the brain don't really fit together. And on top of that, most people don't understand, or even try to understand, at all...

originally posted by: AutonomousMeatPuppet
If it was just about this one kid, then sure whatever.

But, for everybody else, where do you draw the line? Is there some kind of trans ID card, or can any creeper just claim to be trans and share the bathroom with my kids?

Do not worry. I do not believe that 'any creper' are allowed at either school bathroom as it is. You know, some schools does not even allow parents on the premises.

That problem was easily solved - do you have others, then let us solve them too.

a reply to: DupontDeux

I've met way more creepers than trans. Even in high school.

originally posted by: AutonomousMeatPuppet
a reply to: DupontDeux

I've met way more creepers than trans. Even in high school.

Well, if there are plenty of creepers in high school, then surely it is already a problem that creepers share bathrooms with your kids?

originally posted by: DupontDeux

originally posted by: AutonomousMeatPuppet
a reply to: DupontDeux

I've met way more creepers than trans. Even in high school.

Well, if there are plenty of creepers in high school, then surely it is already a problem that creepers share bathrooms with your kids?

Then I guess there is no point trying to change anything.

originally posted by: Anathros
I have an older gay brother and for the life of me, after 25 years of him being "out of the closet" I still believe it is a mental disorder. I think the transgender issue is too. No different than schizophrenia or bipolar disorder. I do not think male brains end up in female bodies or vice versa but that's just my opinion.

WHY?

Why do you think that?

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: Anathros
I have an older gay brother and for the life of me, after 25 years of him being "out of the closet" I still believe it is a mental disorder. I think the transgender issue is too. No different than schizophrenia or bipolar disorder. I do not think male brains end up in female bodies or vice versa but that's just my opinion.

WHY?

Why do you think that?

It is what I believe. I don't have a doctorate but I also don't need one to see abnormal behavior and to arrive at a conclusion. I know the sky is blue and I know that a penis is made for a vagina for procreation to take place. These aren't things I need explained to me. I simply know them to be true. Nature screws up as far as abnormalities such as deformations but the wrong brain in wrong body..I'll leave that for the pseudoscience doctors that make money off selling hormones and performing sex changes to debate.

originally posted by: Anathros

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: Anathros
I have an older gay brother and for the life of me, after 25 years of him being "out of the closet" I still believe it is a mental disorder. I think the transgender issue is too. No different than schizophrenia or bipolar disorder. I do not think male brains end up in female bodies or vice versa but that's just my opinion.

WHY?

Why do you think that?

It is what I believe. I don't have a doctorate but I also don't need one to see abnormal behavior and to arrive at a conclusion. I know the sky is blue and I know that a penis is made for a vagina for procreation to take place. These aren't things I need explained to me. I simply know them to be true. Nature screws up as far as abnormalities such as deformations but the wrong brain in wrong body..I'll leave that for the pseudoscience doctors that make money off selling hormones and performing sex changes to debate.

I certainly do not need the procreation argument. Talk about archaic.

Nature "screws up"?

Nature has "natural" variations.

Arguing with nature is Man Made.

So, yes it comes down to a man made created belief that it is abnormal.

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: Anathros
I have an older gay brother and for the life of me, after 25 years of him being "out of the closet" I still believe it is a mental disorder. I think the transgender issue is too. No different than schizophrenia or bipolar disorder. I do not think male brains end up in female bodies or vice versa but that's just my opinion.

WHY?

Why do you think that?

A somewhat typical example of a transgender is born-girl saying that she feels like a boy and not a girl. That intails two claims:

Claim A)

"I do not feel like a girl."

Well how do you know? If you do not feel like a girl you lack that reference point, and thus you cannot tell, that you do not feel like a girl. If you base your believe on external experiences like typical behavioral patterns of other girls, well, then odds are that you are confusing gender with traditional gender roles.

Claim B)

"I feel like a boy"

Well how do you know? If you are not a boy you lack that reference point, and thus you cannot tell, that you do feel like a boy. If you base your believe on external experiences like typical behavioral patterns of boys, well, then odds are that you are confusing gender with traditional gender roles.

If you insist that you are not confusing it with gender roles and that you in a total collapse of reasoning and logic "just know", then you are bordering on showing the same detachment from reality that schizophrenics can show - they "just now" a satellite is watching them, they "just now"they have alien DNA.

But that is the transgender thing - I do not agree about homosexualism being a mental disorder. There is no evidence for that. There is no collapse of logic and reasoning. There is simply an attraction to members of one own sex.

It is not that I can't follow the logic, though, of those that reasons that it is a deviation that limits procreation and that it must be a disorder since attraction is not a choice, and since the species relies on attraction to 'right' sex for its survival - but who is to say homosexualism is not simply nature's way of limiting the population for the greater good of the species? And if it is, then homesexualism is a mechanism, an important one even, and not a disorder.

It is not that I can't follow the logic, though, of those that reasons that it is a deviation that limits procreation and that it must be a disorder since attraction is not a choice, and since the species relies on attraction to 'right' sex for its survival - but who is to say homosexualism is not simply nature's way of limiting the population for the greater good of the species? And if it is, then homesexualism is a mechanism, an important one even, and not a disorder.

Never thought of it as a mechanism for population control. I thought that what ugly men and women were for at least until bypassed by the invention of alcohol.

Edit: This is a sarcastic post to add levity to the conversation. I mean no disrespect the OP as I know they have had a life full of hurdles regarding the subject matter.

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: Anathros

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: Anathros
I have an older gay brother and for the life of me, after 25 years of him being "out of the closet" I still believe it is a mental disorder. I think the transgender issue is too. No different than schizophrenia or bipolar disorder. I do not think male brains end up in female bodies or vice versa but that's just my opinion.

WHY?

Why do you think that?

It is what I believe. I don't have a doctorate but I also don't need one to see abnormal behavior and to arrive at a conclusion. I know the sky is blue and I know that a penis is made for a vagina for procreation to take place. These aren't things I need explained to me. I simply know them to be true. Nature screws up as far as abnormalities such as deformations but the wrong brain in wrong body..I'll leave that for the pseudoscience doctors that make money off selling hormones and performing sex changes to debate.

I certainly do not need the procreation argument. Talk about archaic.

Nature "screws up"?

Nature has "natural" variations.

Arguing with nature is Man Made.

So, yes it comes down to a man made created belief that it is abnormal.

Still borns, natural variations? Down's syndrome? Understand it's this twisted logic that's enabled describing moms who kill their babies and dudes who chop their junk off as progressive.

I think it comes down to people not being exposed to, or knowing, or having any practical experience with trans people. Generally, the more exposed you are to something, the less phobic you are of it.

And that's what this really is all about. It's about not being OK with trans people, because most people haven't had any practical experience with them.

A side issue that also keeps people from accepting trans people is that it goes against conservative ideology. With today's identity politics, you have to buy into the entire enchilada to call yourself "conservative".

Even if you don't really know a trans person, or have any experience with them -- you are sort of "expected" to be against them using the bathroom they identify with. You'll be cast from your political peer group, (which is like suicide for one's identity) unless you follow the conservative platform.

Outreach and exposure to different people goes a long way. It might be one of the only things that really can change people's hearts and minds.

originally posted by: PlayerWon

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: Anathros

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: Anathros
I have an older gay brother and for the life of me, after 25 years of him being "out of the closet" I still believe it is a mental disorder. I think the transgender issue is too. No different than schizophrenia or bipolar disorder. I do not think male brains end up in female bodies or vice versa but that's just my opinion.

WHY?

Why do you think that?

It is what I believe. I don't have a doctorate but I also don't need one to see abnormal behavior and to arrive at a conclusion. I know the sky is blue and I know that a penis is made for a vagina for procreation to take place. These aren't things I need explained to me. I simply know them to be true. Nature screws up as far as abnormalities such as deformations but the wrong brain in wrong body..I'll leave that for the pseudoscience doctors that make money off selling hormones and performing sex changes to debate.

I certainly do not need the procreation argument. Talk about archaic.

Nature "screws up"?

Nature has "natural" variations.

Arguing with nature is Man Made.

So, yes it comes down to a man made created belief that it is abnormal.

Still borns, natural variations? Down's syndrome? Understand it's this twisted logic that's enabled describing moms who kill their babies and dudes who chop their junk off as progressive.

What the hell are you talking about?

You have issues.

originally posted by: DupontDeux

originally posted by: Annee

originally posted by: Anathros
I have an older gay brother and for the life of me, after 25 years of him being "out of the closet" I still believe it is a mental disorder. I think the transgender issue is too. No different than schizophrenia or bipolar disorder. I do not think male brains end up in female bodies or vice versa but that's just my opinion.

WHY?

Why do you think that?

A somewhat typical example of a transgender is born-girl saying that she feels like a boy and not a girl. That intails two claims:

Claim A)

"I do not feel like a girl."

Well how do you know? If you do not feel like a girl you lack that reference point, and thus you cannot tell, that you do not feel like a girl. If you base your believe on external experiences like typical behavioral patterns of other girls, well, then odds are that you are confusing gender with traditional gender roles.

Claim B)

"I feel like a boy"

Well how do you know? If you are not a boy you lack that reference point, and thus you cannot tell, that you do feel like a boy. If you base your believe on external experiences like typical behavioral patterns of boys, well, then odds are that you are confusing gender with traditional gender roles.

If you insist that you are not confusing it with gender roles and that you in a total collapse of reasoning and logic "just know", then you are bordering on showing the same detachment from reality that schizophrenics can show - they "just now" a satellite is watching them, they "just now"they have alien DNA.

But that is the transgender thing - I do not agree about homosexualism being a mental disorder. There is no evidence for that. There is no collapse of logic and reasoning. There is simply an attraction to members of one own sex.

It is not that I can't follow the logic, though, of those that reasons that it is a deviation that limits procreation and that it must be a disorder since attraction is not a choice, and since the species relies on attraction to 'right' sex for its survival - but who is to say homosexualism is not simply nature's way of limiting the population for the greater good of the species? And if it is, then homesexualism is a mechanism, an important one even, and not a disorder.

Guess what --- I believe those who actually experienced Gender Dysphoria.

That includes parents, as well as child/adolescent/teen/adult actually experiencing Gender Dysphoria.

Not ignorant armchair opinions --- that create a belief they feel comfortable accepting.

originally posted by: Anathros
I have an older gay brother and for the life of me, after 25 years of him being "out of the closet" I still believe it is a mental disorder. I think the transgender issue is too. No different than schizophrenia or bipolar disorder. I do not think male brains end up in female bodies or vice versa but that's just my opinion.

Thank you, Doctor, for sharing your esteemed medical opinion. However, every single major health organization throughout the world disagrees with your opinion so it is hard to give what you think a whole lot of weight when it is obvious you lack the education, information and experience to have a more informed opinion. That's okay, most people don't but I've been posting here for nearly two years trying to bring some facts so that people may have a better understanding of these things. Here's a recent thread with some research if you want to know more: Neurobiology of Transgender

originally posted by: AutonomousMeatPuppet
If it was just about this one kid, then sure whatever.

But, for everybody else, where do you draw the line? Is there some kind of trans ID card, or can any creeper just claim to be trans and share the bathroom with my kids?

Please, let's not share the fantasies of what you would do if you were a student! Seriously though, this is a common concern but in 18 states with anti-transgender discrimination laws and in the 13 of those specifically addressing transgender students, "creepers" are not a problem. Boys still can't go in the girl's bathroom or changing room or vice versa without getting in trouble.

If a student lives full time 24/7 in their assumed gender, then don't force them into the bathroom that doesn't match that gender or force them into separate facilities that single them out. This is not the way to raise healthy children.

Most genuinely transgender kids are usually under the care of a multi-disciplinary team of medical professionals, undergo counseling and therapy and many are taking puberty inhibiting drugs and/or hormones depending on their age. Most transgender kids also transition from one gender to the other, not somewhere in the middle and not back and forth willy nilly. Let's not confuse those with the serious medically diagnosable condition of having gender dysphoria with those that are gender non-conforming to make a statement or be trendy. (transtrenders)

Where this does become more complicated is for those children that haven't come out to their parents or those in unsupportive and un-affirming environments. These situations do call for a case by case evaluation.

My personal feelings on this matter are that while I can't envision carrying a trans ID card, school administrations are fully aware of their legitimate transgender students. In one of the videos, Gavin Grimm even mentions getting the approval of his principal to use the boy's bathroom.

New faces here so I'll do this again. These are transgender girls. All are students. Would you want them going into the bathroom with your sons? If these were your daughters, what would you want for them?

originally posted by: DupontDeux
According to 'every' transgender out there, sex and gender (and gender identity) are definitely not the same. They have argued for the longest time that gender is a social construct independent of the concept of sex, and that is why there is no valid reason that there can only be two genders...

Going to wrestle with semantics are we? Aspects of gender expression/performance and societal expectations of gender roles are to a degree social constructs but a person's in-born disposition and one's internalized sense of what gender they are aren't. You've been listening to too much feminist claptrap with all this social construct business!

What we're looking for is that discrimination on the basis of sex also includes gender identity regardless of how you want to twist it around to sound smart.

originally posted by: snowspirit
Those poor kids. Being a teenager is hard enough, without having the added burden of gender issues. Issues isn't really the word I want there, I just don't think there's a word that fits how difficult life must be, when the body and the brain don't really fit together. And on top of that, most people don't understand, or even try to understand, at all...

I think one reason people don't understand is because unless it is something that someone has dealt with personally, it is very difficult to explain. That's where the "trapped in the wrong body" meme originated. It is a simplification that falls far short of the experience and I've never said that ever but on a basic level, it does give people a concept they might be able to imagine?

I've tried all my life to put it into words and have never succeeded. I think that's because it comes from a place deep inside where simple words do not apply.