Does God Matter?

Originally posted by Leveller

Originally posted by AF1
I think most of you are mising the point of this post. It's not about religion, but about God itself.

Religion is the point though.

I believe religion as we use it at this point in history, blocks our view of God.

The question "Does God Matter" can't be answered until we see Him.

So we will be waiting for eternity then.

Originally posted by drunk

Nothing wrong with being a tyrant sometimes being a tyrant works.

[Edited on 25-6-2003 by drunk]

Examples? It doesn't work for Saddam Hussein, and it isn't working for george bush...who is it good for?

the original post was looking for our input, so I have not yet read other opinions....so forgive me if I restate what may have been said by others...

If God does not punish or bless anyone, why should we make an effort towards any form of praise for "His works?" Seriously. You know that your life is not at stake for the choices you make (in most cases) and you will not be punished by God, so why bother?

Personally, I agree. However, in defense of those who will not...this is why. Fear. Specifically, fear of the unknown. The underlying idea is..."Why tempt fate...I'll do right, just in case". their life may not be at stake, but that is not what they are worried about. They are concerned for what they see as their eternal soul. THIS is what they're concerned about. They fear the punishment will happen to their soul, upon physical death....and the fear of losing a percieved eternity of bliss, is an effective tool of control. A tool that many religions wield quite effectively.

It's only when you step back from the puppet masters, and take responsibility for your own destiny, and trust in your own beliefs...do you cease becoming a tool yourself.

Drunk

You said that God doesn't matter. You said "What about the people in 9/11, they were probably praying to the God/gods for help, but they weren't saved."

This is because (Sorry if this is back to the religion thing again, not God itself) the Christian Church teaches God gave man free will. Now if God were to save those people in the towers, that would of stopped the whole free will thing. What about the terrorists' free will? It would have been stopped if the people were saved.

Just a thought on what you said, drunk.

-Mac

Um chebob....you said tyrany isn't working for George Bush...well..I myself do not believe he is a tyrant, but in fact many veteran politicians believe Bush will run again and WIN the 2004 election. If you need facts for this i'll try to find them, heard it on the news

-Mac

Originally posted by Mac223
Um chebob....you said tyrany isn't working for George Bush...well..I myself do not believe he is a tyrant, but in fact many veteran politicians believe Bush will run again and WIN the 2004 election. If you need facts for this i'll try to find them, heard it on the news

-Mac

It may be working to get him back in power, but it's not doing anything to make him a good human being

This is because (Sorry if this is back to the religion thing again, not God itself) the Christian Church teaches God gave man free will. Now if God were to save those people in the towers, that would of stopped the whole free will thing. What about the terrorists' free will? It would have been stopped if the people were saved.

I'm so glad the Christian God cares about the free will of terrorists, that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside!

*marches off to church...* NOT!

Why is this God (who cares more for the free will of non-believers, than he does (apparently) for the pleas for mercy from his followers) worth worshipping again?

Protector,

Don't make the assumption that you know for certain how God works.

Forgive me if that was the conclusion you drew from that comment. When I mentioned that G-d does not work that way, that was not meant in a all inclusive way. You postulated that if you 'did such and such' would you be struck by lightning, etc? And, again, I will say, that G-d does not work that way. If you, indeed, feel that G-d does, please feel free to disagree.

It is my "ultimate" choice? That assumes that we are with the choice for one. For two, there is no greater choice to be made. And for three, there must be a right or wrong choice to be made. Thatsounds like a problem. I am doomed to make a choice regardless of my freewill , plus I could make the wrong choice. See where the freedom appears lost?

Again, forgive me, perhaps the word 'ultimate' was used wrongly. But I also do insert that if one does indeed believe in G-d or in a G-d then is there not a greater choice to be made? There is no middle ground in belief, per se'. You either choose to believe in G-d or a G-d or you choose not to believe in G-d or a G-d. Is this not making a choice, if not a greater choice?

As to if there is a 'right' and 'wrong' choice, thats a matter of one's belief is it not? "Rightness" or "wrongness" is not an intrinsic condition, it is subjective judgements in a personal value system. By our subjective judgements do we create a concept of "rightness" or "wrongness." By these very subjective judgements we identify Self --- by our personal values do we determine and demonstrate Who We Are.

The world exists exactly as it is so that we may make these judgements. If the world existed in perfect condition, our life process of Self creation would be terminated; it would end. A lawyer's career would end tomorrow were there no more litigation. A doctor's career would end tomorrow were there no more illness. A philosopher's career would end tomorrow were there no more questions. G-d's career would end tomorrow were there no more problems. When applied to "rightness" and "wrongness", we may do as we wish, without fear of retribution....or being struck by lightning....But we must also keep in mind, however, that for every 'choice', regardless of "rightness" or "wrongness", there are consequences. All conditions are temporary; nothing stays the same; nothing remains static; which way a thing changes depends on choice.

In that case, where does God exist as important outside of religion (the main point of my original post). Finally, if God requires nothing then I say this: "Apparanetly he does not yet have my choice, so he does not have everything."

Are you implying that to believe in G-d or in a G-d, one must have a "religion" or an affiliation to a religious organization? G-d existed long before "religion" became a word, deed, or an organization for Higher Thoughts. G-d exists outside religion period. Religion does not have a monopoly on G-d. G-d is All; everywhere, anyplace, without borders or boundries. His importance outside of religion is actually far greater than within religion. G-d is not a 'holy book' or merely 'the Word'; He is not a building, creed, nation, or monopoly. He is more than any words can describe Him. He is limitless; He is G-d, the Most High, the All, etc. If one only see's G-d within the confines of 'religion', or a book, or etc., one needs to truly stop, quiet the world around one's self, and listen, open your eyes and see the real nature and character of G-d.

As to G-d not having your choice and that equating to G-d not having 'everything'.......thats a bad analogy. G-d does not wait for us to make a choice. He has not placed any choice higher that any other. I was incorrect in saying 'ultimate' choice. There are no real 'ultimate' choices, other than what religion would have us believe and think. Choice is like "rightness" and "wrongness", who can really say exactly what is truly "right" or "wrong"; its a personal subjective judgement....an opinion or sorts. Choice is merely part of that equation of 'subjective judgement'.

Then I ask you this, "why do we lack almost everything we desire?" If God has everything, why deny us anything? Incase you haven't noticed, the world is harsh, futile, and lacking. If this everything God has to offer, I'd like to give it back. By definition God should be able to do a better job. So why doesn't He?

First of all Protector, your mixing 'human material' needs with a G-d, who has everything, equating to: G-d having everything goes far beyond the human definition of 'everything'. First question: Why do you think G-d denies us anything? G-d's job is not to give 'us' everything nor anything. He created 'us' to experience life, to experience Self, to know HIm through those experiences. If G-d gave us 'everything' how can 'we' experience our Self or G-d? Secondly, I get the impression that you perhaps blame G-d for your lackings of, or for this world's lackings of. Has not G-d provided you or me or anyone else with the abilities to have 'all' or anything we desire, with in reason? This can also be applied to parents....if my son wants a brand new sports car and I give it to him and he turns around and trashes the car.....what did he gain; what did he learn? If G-d acts like a genie and is only there to provide your every desire and need, what did you gain and what did you learn?

Have you ever thought that this world is in the conditions that it is in because of US? G-d gave us this 'place'; we are the 'caretakers' of this place. We have full control of what happens (excluding acts of nature) whether it results in 'good' or 'bad'. Man is the one to be responsible for our current and past conditions, not G-d. And, therefore, because 'we' have reaped what each one of us has sown, its then justifible to then turn to the One who gave us this 'place' and blame HIm for its 'lack of's'; it's problem's; it's failing's; etc., when in all truth, it is US, the 'caretakers', that are to blame? Thats almost a mockery of G-d ain't it?

So what is Love?

Love is more than a 'desire' Protector. Love is beyond what I could say.....this actually says it better.....:
"Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up. Love does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never fails."
(1 Corinthians 13:4-8)

And again, Protector, you equate 'Love' to a material thing in that "we cannot always have what we love." Love goes far beyond need, beyond materials. Love is the motivator of creating, whether applied to G-d or us. Love is the nature and character of G-d and has everything to do with the universe and us. As to 'we' being mistakes and/or living in Hell, that is a matter of opinion and perception....is it not? I believe you have misplaced feelings/blame that you are directing at G-d or a G-d and are failing to look at the heart of the matter and that is we should be looking at ourselves and Man in general. Its the easiest thing to do...blame G-d; it's HIs fault this is happening; that this world is so much like a 'Hell'. It's not G-d's fault Protector, the root of this is called 'denial'..........'denial' causes one to blame others for their misfortunes, bad happenings, the world going to proverbial '#' in a hand basket.......its 'denial' that causes 'us' to not look at our selves, nor Man, as a whole.


regards
seekerof



[Edited on 25-6-2003 by Seekerof]

[Edited on 26-6-2003 by Seekerof]

[Edited on 26-6-2003 by Seekerof]

Hey Protector....

An absolute with respect to reality (ie..God) is from some perspective oriented to all things that exist.

That God is absolute and our Universe real means that God is in our Universe to the same extent he is absolute.

Otherwise either the Universe is not real
or God is not absolute.

Does God matter my response would be yes

To be specific, our capacity to perceive reality is clearly not absolute (and to be honest would not treat that as an objective) . To then draw the conclusion that God does not matter puts one in the position of doing so without access to all the information (from my perspective even if one is aware of infinity).

God is only our search for purpose and existance.

For the stuff that can never be explained by science, "Why are we here?"

To make God into a puppetmaster or anything else, or to personify him, is to make a serious blunder, based on utter stupidity.

does god matter?
is god matter?
does matter god?
god matter does.
god matter is.
god matter doesn't.
god matter isn't.
puny humans think dying is bad.
puny human think this life is all.

What is God? Is God a giant man who once incarnated as his own son 2,000 years ago through the womb of a woman in the Middle East? Certainly not. Is God a man who created everything we see? Wrong again. These stories are just perceptions filtered through the limited human mind. They are not ultimate truths. Is God male? No way. This is an erroneous interpretation by the male ego.

It's the sun who is responsible for life on earth, but we are not praying him for so much.

Originally posted by Salem
What is God? Is God a giant man who once incarnated as his own son 2,000 years ago through the womb of a woman in the Middle East? Certainly not. Is God a man who created everything we see? Wrong again. These stories are just perceptions filtered through the limited human mind. They are not ultimate truths. Is God male? No way. This is an erroneous interpretation by the male ego.

It's the sun who is responsible for life on earth, but we are not praying him for so much.

I believe G-d is a matter of interpretation.
"If believing in 'a' G-d is irrational; is not believing in 'a' G-d rational?"

regards
seekerof

Originally posted by Salem
What is God? Is God a giant man who once incarnated as his own son 2,000 years ago through the womb of a woman in the Middle East? Certainly not. Is God a man who created everything we see? Wrong again. These stories are just perceptions filtered through the limited human mind. They are not ultimate truths. Is God male? No way. This is an erroneous interpretation by the male ego.

It's the sun who is responsible for life on earth, but we are not praying him for so much.

it's actually fractal math that is "responsible" for life everywhere. this phi-cycle(physical) reality is only one small layer of a much more complex multiverse.
there is too much order in the universe for there NOT to be a god.
einstein, hawkings and tesla all believe(d) in god.
consciousness creates reality.

God doesn't matter if he gave us free will.

He gave us the power to ignore Him and He gave us the power to believe in Him.

I don't think that life is a test or a trick.

God only matters if you want him to.

Originally posted by billybob
einstein, hawkings and tesla all believe(d) in god.
consciousness creates reality.

Tell me where enstein said he was beliving in god.( I really want to know, not sarcastic.)

Any way, i'm trying to define god and you answering me by telling me that enstein was beleiving in god...

[Edited on 27-6-2003 by Salem]

Your original question:

Does God matter?

You then clearly stated that He does not...to you.

I think that's all that is important, right? You have made your decision(s) and clearly stated them. I am absolutely accepting of your decisions. They are yours, so be it.

You have then posed a series of questions to the rest of us and had THE UNMITIGATED GALL to think you can answer them for us. Make your personal decisions, Protector, but don't seek consensus from the rest of us in order to make yourself feel more confident in what you have chosen.

I could speak to you all day on what my opinion is on this matter, and what my beliefs are on this matter, and have no problem doing just as you requested...leaving religion out of it. But your post was made in a close-minded manner. Your post left no room for discussion.

You have answered your own questions. But when your Pascalian wager hits the wall and your coin comes to a complete standstill...please have the integrity to not whine, ok?

[Edited on 27-6-2003 by Valhall]

Originally posted by Gazrok

This is because (Sorry if this is back to the religion thing again, not God itself) the Christian Church teaches God gave man free will. Now if God were to save those people in the towers, that would of stopped the whole free will thing. What about the terrorists' free will? It would have been stopped if the people were saved.

I'm so glad the Christian God cares about the free will of terrorists, that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside!

*marches off to church...* NOT!

Why is this God (who cares more for the free will of non-believers, than he does (apparently) for the pleas for mercy from his followers) worth worshipping again?

You see Gaz.....Christianity teaches that only bodily death occurs......you are changed when the body rots and decomposes........the soul will give account to what was done on earth in everyday living....
At the end of the world ......everyone alive and 'dead'(in their graves) will have to stand before God ......for each will be judged on their life ........
Free will is given to each person so that the person has a choice to whom they wish to follow.......If man wishes to follow whomever it be ....so be it.......it is of their own accord.....it is a choice one makes......and that choice is 'free will'..
God does work in mysterious ways........He fully knows what will happen,but will not interfere with man's will.......only the individual person can change that!
Death is not realy the end........
People will always look at blaming God for things that man has himself created........God did not create hate.......He created Love....and because the love of many has gone.........it has brought about hatred and misfortune everywhere.........This is not God's plan......it is Satan's plan from the beggining .......to destroy man's closeness with God......and he has succefully done what he said he would.......created a false vision of what is real and what is not real......
God does not wish any one to go to hell........
Judgement will be fair.........it is what you sow ....you will reap.
helen.

religion, the most perfect form of control known to man today.

religion makes people feel comfortable with the idea of eternity. no one wants to live forever, we all know that deep down.

we all know, when we die, we do just that, die. we don't go to a heavan, or a hell, but those places, the thought of having a home in the clouds, or going to a fiery land of insatiable pain, keeps our actions in life in line. in the end, you may go to heaven, you may go to hell, you may go to detroit. who knows, i won't death comes for us all, accept it.

Originally posted by Salem

Originally posted by billybob
einstein, hawkings and tesla all believe(d) in god.
consciousness creates reality.

Tell me where enstein said he was beliving in god.( I really want to know, not sarcastic.)
[Edited on 27-6-2003 by Salem]

(strange the img code isn't working....)

I would be careful about making blanket statements concerning those scientists and their belief in God, often they were not expressing a"personal" God but a more impersonal force.


[Edited on 27-6-2003 by Netchicken]