How does prayer work?

a reply to: Woodcarver

nobody has offered a single explanation on how or why prayer works.

I seen some suggestions that could or would explain it but that is me and not you .I used a simple example of a child asking a parent a question . Explore exactly how that works and it may give you a insight into your own question[s] .

originally posted by: the2ofusr1
a reply to: Woodcarver

nobody has offered a single explanation on how or why prayer works.

I seen some suggestions that could or would explain it but that is me and not you .I used a simple example of a child asking a parent a question . Explore exactly how that works and it may give you a insight into your own question[s] .

How does that explain anything? Children, we can prove they exist. Parents, we can prove they exist. gods, we cannot prove that they exist. So how does this have any explanatory power?

a reply to: Woodcarver

Let me ask you if love exist .and if so ,show me how you prove it .you can use hate inside your explanation as a counter to or in a similar way .

originally posted by: visitedbythem

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: visitedbythem
a reply to: Woodcarver

Or perhaps it's not in their best interest in the long run

How is that testable? That just seems like a cop out, and does nothing to explain how prayer actually works. What about entire teams? Surely a win wouldn't be detrimental to every member of a team?

On a personal scale

I was in a serious motorcycle wreck 8 years ago. I was found by a search party, dragged out of the rugged terrain on a sled behind a another dirtbike, and airlifted to a hospital to emergency. My parents were called by the hospital after midnight and told " get down here right away, we have your son here, he has been in an accident and is not expected to live through the night" People began praying for me. I was added to a prayer chain 1 million strong. My kidneys, and liver were off line, billireubin was coming out through the catheter. When I came to in intensive care, I was so weak, I couldn't even focus my eyes. My skin turned yellow. I began to feel something incredible. I felt a spiritual presence. I had a out of body experience that lasted 1 hour, where I flew high above the Earth out in space. I was very aware that I was out of my body. I was very clear, and it was not a dream. After an hour, I was pulled with force back down to the hospital. I hit the hospital bed at high speed, and it didn't even move. I immediately opened my eyes, and told the nurse what had happened. I had energy to focus, and speak. Within the hour my organs started working , urine began to flow, and my color came back. The Doctors were baffled. They sent me to Stanford to a expert, and he said that something inside me had been torn open, way down low, and had been hemorraging, but had somehow sealed back up. They were baffled too.
I felt those prayers. It was amazing and powerful.

That was inspiring to read... and shows the awesome power of God and prayer.

a reply to: Woodcarver

This convo was finished long before it started . God warned me you really didn't want answers and it was all a subtle slightly malicious bait trap for someone who has an over inflated sense of self.

Your motivation and intentions were as clear as glass OP.. and a major reason why I did not give you specifics on my experiences.

Sad for you really.. at the end of this thread.. because we found out more about you than prayer.. though a few did try to share their wisdom 😕

originally posted by: the2ofusr1
a reply to: Woodcarver

Let me ask you if love exist .and if so ,show me how you prove it .you can use hate inside your explanation as a counter to or in a similar way .

Love is quite well known and understood. It is a consensual emotional bond between two people. This can be measured in several ways, chemical analysis would show an increase in dopamine when shown a picture of a loved one while being scanned within an MRI machine. It can also be measured by simply studying people's body language or reactions to interpersonal stimuli.

Not sure how proving the existence of love can also prove the existence of gods or the efficacy of prayer. I think you would be very hard pressed to find a person who denys the existence of love. The same chemical effects can be found in most mammalian species.

articles.latimes.com...

originally posted by: Sheye
a reply to: Woodcarver

This convo was finished long before it started . God warned me you really didn't want answers and it was all a subtle slightly malicious bait trap for someone who has an over inflated sense of self.

Your motivation and intentions were as clear as glass OP.. and a major reason why I did not give you specifics on my experiences.

Sad for you really.. at the end of this thread.. because we found out more about you than prayer.. though a few did try to share their wisdom 😕

This convo is far from over and your attempts to frame me as some kind of malicious person is what i would expect from someone who does not have the wits to carry a sensible discussion with someone who disagrees with them. In your imaginary conversations with your god, does he always agree with you? Why wouldn't he simply give you the intellect to answer my questions beyond any doubt? That would be far more compelling than you just slinging hateful words my way. You have just handed me another check on my board for reasons not to believe in gods or prayer.

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: Sheye
a reply to: Woodcarver

This convo was finished long before it started . God warned me you really didn't want answers and it was all a subtle slightly malicious bait trap for someone who has an over inflated sense of self.

Your motivation and intentions were as clear as glass OP.. and a major reason why I did not give you specifics on my experiences.

Sad for you really.. at the end of this thread.. because we found out more about you than prayer.. though a few did try to share their wisdom 😕

This convo is far from over and your attempts to frame me as some kind of malicious person is what i would expect from someone who does not have the wits to carry a sensible discussion with someone who disagrees with them. In your imaginary conversations with your god, does he always agree with you? Why wouldn't he simply give you the intellect to answer my questions beyond any doubt? That would be far more compelling than you just slinging hateful words my way. You have just handed me another check on my board for reasons not to believe in gods or prayer.

Awww... musta hit a nerve with my truth.🤔

You are still in my prayers 🌹As far as prayer and God are concerned I leave it up to Him to be your teacher.

My prayer is that you open your heart to Him and let Him open your eyes of faith with something tangible and rational to you ,in prooving His existence.

I fully believe my prayer will be answered in time.

Woodcarver,
You seem to already have your mind made up. All I see you doing is arguing with people who are trying to help you understand. You're not coming to your own question with an open mind. So, can the outcomes of prayer be scientifically proven? No. There's your answer. What a better question for you to ask might be "If the outcome of prayer can't be scientifically proven, then why do so many people pray?"

originally posted by: Sheye

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: Sheye
a reply to: Woodcarver

This convo was finished long before it started . God warned me you really didn't want answers and it was all a subtle slightly malicious bait trap for someone who has an over inflated sense of self.

Your motivation and intentions were as clear as glass OP.. and a major reason why I did not give you specifics on my experiences.

Sad for you really.. at the end of this thread.. because we found out more about you than prayer.. though a few did try to share their wisdom 😕

This convo is far from over and your attempts to frame me as some kind of malicious person is what i would expect from someone who does not have the wits to carry a sensible discussion with someone who disagrees with them. In your imaginary conversations with your god, does he always agree with you? Why wouldn't he simply give you the intellect to answer my questions beyond any doubt? That would be far more compelling than you just slinging hateful words my way. You have just handed me another check on my board for reasons not to believe in gods or prayer.

Awww... musta hit a nerve with my truth.🤔

You are still in my prayers 🌹As far as prayer and God are concerned I leave it up to Him to be your teacher.

My prayer is that you open your heart to Him and let Him open your eyes of faith with something tangible and rational to you ,in prooving His existence.

I fully believe my prayer will be answered in time.

I will accept your apology, but only if it makes you feel better for lashing out. As far as your prayers, i would not bother. It will not make either of us feel better. You are welcome to continue with the conversation so long as you keep the hateful rhetoric at bay.

a reply to: Woodcarver

Love is quite well known and understood. It is a consensual emotional bond between two people. This can be measured in several ways, chemical analysis would show an increase in dopamine when shown a picture of a loved one while being scanned within an MRI machine. It can also be measured by simply studying people's body language or reactions to interpersonal stimuli.

Use that as a sample on how to check for yourself if praying is real .Maybe it can be quantified in chemical production and reaction . I am not a chemist so you will need one of those for your tests .best of luck .

originally posted by: BeenieWeenie
Woodcarver,
You seem to already have your mind made up. All I see you doing is arguing with people who are trying to help you understand. You're not coming to your own question with an open mind. So, can the outcomes of prayer be scientifically proven? No. There's your answer. What a better question for you to ask might be "If the outcome of prayer can't be scientifically proven, then why do so many people pray?"

My mind remains open to logical discussion, but not to emotional pleas and anectodal stories. If you don't believe that prayer can be discussed in a logical way, then what reason do you have to believe in it? Is it only a means to make you feel better? Then why post in a thread which is asking for rational explanations? What is your purpose for being here if you don't believe that prayer can be discussed or explained in a logical way?

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: BeenieWeenie
Woodcarver,
You seem to already have your mind made up. All I see you doing is arguing with people who are trying to help you understand. You're not coming to your own question with an open mind. So, can the outcomes of prayer be scientifically proven? No. There's your answer. What a better question for you to ask might be "If the outcome of prayer can't be scientifically proven, then why do so many people pray?"

My mind remains open to logical discussion, but not to emotional pleas and anectodal stories. If you don't believe that prayer can be discussed in a logical way, then what reason do you have to believe in it? Is it only a means to make you feel better? Then why post in a thread which is asking for rational explanations? What is your purpose for being here if you don't believe that prayer can be discussed or explained in a logical way?

The answer is love, which you yourself said scientifically exists.

originally posted by: the2ofusr1
a reply to: Woodcarver

Love is quite well known and understood. It is a consensual emotional bond between two people. This can be measured in several ways, chemical analysis would show an increase in dopamine when shown a picture of a loved one while being scanned within an MRI machine. It can also be measured by simply studying people's body language or reactions to interpersonal stimuli.

Use that as a sample on how to check for yourself if praying is real .Maybe it can be quantified in chemical production and reaction . I am not a chemist so you will need one of those for your tests .best of luck .

How does love between two humans explain the existence of a god? I have seen plenty of people in love, i have even experienced it myself on many occasions. It can be seen by any witness. It can be explained in a scientific manner. It can even be rooted out when claims of love are false. None of this can be said about any of the many gods said to exist. So i fail to see the comparison. One does not relate to the other.

a reply to: Woodcarver

You asked a kind of simple but complicated question that you required some kind of scientific proof of . You acknowledge that science had quantified the existence of love and that it was scientifically true . But humans have known about love for a long long time and that it was a fact that didn't even require science to prove it . It was a given before it was undeniably proven by science . But I guess that science or someone in science even questioned it and did a study . Find the circle in science that went about proving it to your liking and ask them if prayer has been or can be proven scientifically . Don't ask them to prove that God exists but ask them if prayer works and how it works .

originally posted by: the2ofusr1
a reply to: Woodcarver

You asked a kind of simple but complicated question that you required some kind of scientific proof of . You acknowledge that science had quantified the existence of love and that it was scientifically true . But humans have known about love for a long long time and that it was a fact that didn't even require science to prove it . It was a given before it was undeniably proven by science . But I guess that science or someone in science even questioned it and did a study . Find the circle in science that went about proving it to your liking and ask them if prayer has been or can be proven scientifically . Don't ask them to prove that God exists but ask them if prayer works and how it works .

Lol science did not prove the existence of love, it merely explained the physiological changes that our minds and bodies go through. There was no doubt that love was a thing way before science was ever a concept. However, god and or prayer seems to evade the reach of science. Perhaps because the people who believe in it the most refuse to study any of the various disciplines that could lead to discovery of the thing. My other pressing question is, with the probable billions of religiously minded scientists, why do none of them set out to prove the very beliefs they feel so strongly? How do they reconsile the lack of proof with their need to be rational and find answers?

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: visitedbythem

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: visitedbythem
a reply to: Woodcarver

Or perhaps it's not in their best interest in the long run

How is that testable? That just seems like a cop out, and does nothing to explain how prayer actually works. What about entire teams? Surely a win wouldn't be detrimental to every member of a team?

On a personal scale

I was in a serious motorcycle wreck 8 years ago. I was found by a search party, dragged out of the rugged terrain on a sled behind a another dirtbike, and airlifted to a hospital to emergency. My parents were called by the hospital after midnight and told " get down here right away, we have your son here, he has been in an accident and is not expected to live through the night" People began praying for me. I was added to a prayer chain 1 million strong. My kidneys, and liver were off line, billireubin was coming out through the catheter. When I came to in intensive care, I was so weak, I couldn't even focus my eyes. My skin turned yellow. I began to feel something incredible. I felt a spiritual presence. I had a out of body experience that lasted 1 hour, where I flew high above the Earth out in space. I was very aware that I was out of my body. I was very clear, and it was not a dream. After an hour, I was pulled with force back down to the hospital. I hit the hospital bed at high speed, and it didn't even move. I immediately opened my eyes, and told the nurse what had happened. I had energy to focus, and speak. Within the hour my organs started working , urine began to flow, and my color came back. The Doctors were baffled. They sent me to Stanford to a expert, and he said that something inside me had been torn open, way down low, and had been hemorraging, but had somehow sealed back up. They were baffled too.
I felt those prayers. It was amazing and powerful.

The process of dying, our bodies release massive amounts of '___', which is a naturally occuring, highly hallucinogenic molecule created right inside of your brain. This is a well known process and can be measured and monitored in real time. As far as your body healing, that is what bodies do. Not to mention the team of doctors who were working on you. Surely they deserve your credit.

I would be far more convinced if you said you walked out of the woods on your own accord, wrapped in the healing hands of jesus and never even needed to go to a hospital. Buy since no miracles occured, this seems to be very normal circumstances. Doctors save people's lives every day. How is this supposed to support the power of prayer?

I know exactly what you are referring to. It is produced when you are born and when you die, and no it was nothing like that. The doctors expected me to die. The Stanford Specialist was amazed that the hemorrhage sealed on its own. He was also confused as to why the hospital did not follow Standard procedure and open me up for an exploratory. I would have died if they did

a reply to: Sheye

Thank you. There was also something even more wild that happened a few days after the hospital released me. It is very private though. I may consider telling you in a pm sometime. Ill give it some consideration.

a reply to: Woodcarver

My other pressing question is, with the probable billions of religiously minded scientists, why do none of them set out to prove the very beliefs they feel so strongly? How do they reconsile the lack of proof with their need to be rational and find answers?

Could it be that they have no need to prove something that requires faith to approach ? Could there be a different kind of proof that proves that prayer is answered and can't be quantified in a test tube ? A lot of science is based on mathematical probabilities . meaning its probably true but they don;t have any concrete empirical evidence but only a working theory . There cold be people working on answering your question scientifically as we speak ,much like other questions that science asks .

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: the2ofusr1
a reply to: Woodcarver

I see many threads and posts where people are asking for prayers or describing situations when prayer has worked for them. However when I ask these people how prayer works there is no rational explanation. In fact I have never been given an explanation as to how prayer works and why most prayers don't work. People who call for prayers or rely on prayers to get through their situations don't seem to have any idea why prayer worked in this situation and not the millions of others where it failed. There is certainly no consensus among those who claim that prayer works for them and there is certainly no way of testing if prayers do work. Or is there a way that this can be tested?

Looking for a empirical answer to a subject dealing with metaphysics can only be found in a subset called theology .Think of it this way . In the sciences they have questions where they theorize as to options to answer their questions . Its real easy to pray for something and not get a answer .We might want to put that type of prayer in the wishful thinking box .

Prayer is a theological construct .You will only get your answer there .Finding the true theology is like picking the correct theory in science to get the answer to the question and you may have to change your question in that camp as well .

I certainly agree that prayer does not fall under the realm of scientific investigation. pretty much all of theology has been purposefully excluded from the probing of scientific investigation. However, if prayer does indeed affect the physical world then there should be some thing there to probe. nothing can affect the physical world without leaving some kind of trace. The insistence that somehow prayer should be excluded from scientific investigation only supports the notion that prayer actually has no effect on the physical world.

The thing is Woodcarver.. prayer has been studied under scientific investigations, and it was proven that patients who had prayed or had others praying for them healed and recovered faster than those who didn't. I'll try and find some stats on these studies .. but you got some good advice as to what scientific circles to pose your questions to.

You want scientific answers..? I believe you will get them if you search with pure motivation and sincere desire for truth.. as mystical or as rational the answers may be.