How does prayer work?

a reply to: the2ofusr1

OK then, just a hypothetical. What if that person needed to learn a valuable lesson of why they are sick? Maybe their life choices or diet is unhealthy and is causing the illness. If you could just cure them through prayer, will they ever learn?

Maybe that person needs to accept personal responsibility and accountability in order for them to discover why they are sick in the first place.

If you take away the sickness without learning what caused the sickness, wouldn't that eliminate a path of personal discovery and corrupt free will?

originally posted by: the2ofusr1
a reply to: Woodcarver

I believe you used the term scientific consensus earlier on as a way of validating . Is consensus by a group of scientist ,science ? Some scientists only get validated many years after their death .At the time they were alive they were up against a consensus . fact .

I used the word consensus earlier to describe the fact that religious people cannot come to any consensus as to how supernatural events take place. However, scientific consensus is how we come to an agreement on what should be included into our scientic knowledge. If all of the experiments point in one direction, then a scientific consensus is what you have.

a reply to: the2ofusr1

well im still working on the relating to others,;" I..... have a dream, that one day i can walk pass a hooooman, and say, i wish that you can do something on your own "

originally posted by: the2ofusr1
a reply to: Woodcarver

I am just a mild observer with a opinion .If you are looking for a PHD or a level of education ,you have a web load to choose from . While thinking within myself two words came to mind .You used one "placebo" and the other one is hypochondria .Things that make you go mmmm.

having a degree is is proof that you have a certain foundation of knowledge to draw from. If you do not have the proper education, then it is difficult for you to understand why certain aspects of reality are understood to be accepted. It also makes your claims that these aspects are incorrect, dubious. Especially when you cannot explain the aspects or understand how we came to such conclusions.

originally posted by: tikbalang
a reply to: the2ofusr1

well im still working on the relating to others,;" I..... have a dream, that one day i can walk pass a hooooman, and say, i wish that you can do something on your own "

Again, i'm not sure what your point is. Are you not human?

originally posted by: ClovenSky
a reply to: the2ofusr1

OK then, just a hypothetical. What if that person needed to learn a valuable lesson of why they are sick? Maybe their life choices or diet is unhealthy and is causing the illness. If you could just cure them through prayer, will they ever learn?

Maybe that person needs to accept personal responsibility and accountability in order for them to discover why they are sick in the first place.

If you take away the sickness without learning what caused the sickness, wouldn't that eliminate a path of personal discovery and corrupt free will?

Would they learn this thing if a doctor heals them? Again, you are speculating. I am looking for explanation on how prayer works. You are giving me maybes.

originally posted by: tikbalang

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: tikbalang

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: tikbalang
a reply to: Woodcarver

Im pretty sure if that was an issue understanding most thing I will say will be misunderstood

What? I assume english is not your strong suite.

Common sense I guess is not yours?

that does not explain why your posts are unreadable.

Actually it does, giving information or planting a doubt are to separate things, one let's you research by yourself while the other is blind faith.. Children walk in blind faith..

Wait a minute. Isn't the basis of all religion blind faith? This is the main theme of all religions. There is no proof, there can be no proof, so all you are left with is blind faith. Blind faith has no place in a scientific setting.

a reply to: Woodcarver

You do realize God said he would make fools out many of the self appointed "learned".

Degrees don't surmount to wisdom or understanding though knowledge is a gift of the Holy Spirit.

Because you have a doctorate or two doesn't make your opinion more " valid" as far as how the mysticsm of God works.

Human pride can be such a turn off.. the self inflated ego is not pleasing to the heavenly Father.

a reply to: Woodcarver

Nothing blind about my faith... eyes are wide open.. and opened through a merciful God😏

a reply to: ClovenSky

What if that person needed to learn a valuable lesson of why they are sick? Maybe their life choices or diet is unhealthy and is causing the illness. If you could just cure them through prayer, will they ever learn? Maybe that person needs to accept personal responsibility and accountability in order for them to discover why they are sick in the first place. If you take away the sickness without learning what caused the sickness, wouldn't that eliminate a path of personal discovery and corrupt free will?

Wouldn't the God you are praying to know what the best course of action to be .Its not the person that is praying that is doing the fixing .If someone is on their death bed or too sick to think straight to find a better path then stabilizing the patient might be better ,wouldn't you think ?

a reply to: Woodcarver

Humans means in etymology ;" Earthly beings " So in a way we all are " humans ". '

What im saying;" If you lack the understanding about something, research about it. Its the best possible way to understand it, dont use your lack of experience or subjective point of view and try to comprehend a topic you clearly lack knowledge, experience and understanding in "

The bottom line the simple words you wanted to express through your whole OP was no more than;" Why do you pray if it doesnt work ". I explained it very simple, its about reinforcing a good behavior. I can break it down in a way your simple mind understands it ;" Everyday you watch a show on TV, it reinforces a human good behavior "

But im pretty sure, in your "universe", you wont understand what i wrote.

originally posted by: Sheye

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: Sheye

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: Dnied
a reply to: Woodcarver

Why don't you answer your question then? Give it all you got.

I do not have an explanation as to why people believe that prayer is effective. As I don't believe that it is.I am looking for someone to explain how and why prayer is effective.

I just did.. but your " rational " mind won't accept it. Perhaps it is too logical in its mysticism for you ?

What are the " paranormal" realms in scientific study? There is that aspect to look at as well.

You're like a child that wants a cookie and when given the cookie , tosses it away because he didn't care for the color of it.

I can see now why you said you have never receieved a rational answer.. you don't want one ( which is what I felt in my heart when I prayed about how to answer your OP)

Peace and God bless... by the way Jesus taught his disciples the Lords prayer .. which is a fine example of how to pray.

Would you care to repeat this explanation? Perhaps i have overlooked it or simply did not understand it? Please make it detailed and concise.

Can you not read...prayer saved my life at least twice .. but if you are wanting all the details you are breaking T&C's because I have already told you they are personal stories that would almost take a chapter to explain.. and that is just a few.

You claiming that prayer saved your life is anecdotal at best. Why should i believe your story? Do you have some way to prove this? I don't think me asking you to explain this is in any way against t&c's. But i assume you have no difinitive way of proving this anyway.

a reply to: Woodcarver

My apologies. My argument was all maybes with no scientific proof. I was trying to convey the (maybe) idea of this reality ensuring free will at all times. Prayer affecting reality goes against free will, therefor it doesn't work. Maybe the placebo explanation was a better argument.

I don't think you will be able to prove or disprove prayer through the scientific means that we currently possess.

a reply to: Woodcarver

You use the term "blind faith" in ways that are alien to my faith .Faith has a trust component to it you may not be considering .

originally posted by: Sheye
a reply to: Woodcarver

You do realize God said he would make fools out many of the self appointed "learned".

Degrees don't surmount to wisdom or understanding though knowledge is a gift of the Holy Spirit.

Because you have a doctorate or two doesn't make your opinion more " valid" as far as how the mysticsm of God works.

Human pride can be such a turn off.. the self inflated ego is not pleasing to the heavenly Father.

I know that those words can be found in a book. I know that that book was written by humans. You would be welcome to prove otherwise. But i don't suspect you understand what would be considered proof or even evidence for that matter. You seem to be more comfortable with your pleasant thoughts rather than actual investigation. You are welcome to believe what you will, but i am looking for someone who is both scientifically literate and religiously minded to explain how prayer works. So far i have not been confronted with such a person.

a reply to: ClovenSky

Prayer affecting reality goes against free will

Well here its about the intent.

The free will is "demanding" it " wants ",
--
The prayer is there for a good cause, but i know its misused by people in "wanting", a good Christian knows and understands the power of praying, a bad Christian only wants for himself.

a reply to: Woodcarver

You keep talking about science but science doesn't agree with you - it has moved on from Newtonian physics.

Funny enough, your idea of, "only physical things affect change in physical systems", was conceive by a spiritualist.

Today, there is no longer any grand scientific consensus of what ultimately affects change.

e.g. In Quantum Field Theory, the understanding is that fields ultimately affect change. But the fields themselves? They're not made of physical things.

a reply to: Woodcarver

Prayer is on one level sending out information on telepathic/entangled channels that can be intercepted both inside the body and outside. Fortunately the effect is set on lower scales than it could have been so that people are not hurting themselves with lack of control.

a reply to: Woodcarver

But because science doesn't have a answer to your questions on prayer you ask people who do pray and believe it works and then impose you suitcase of scientific tools to explain it back to you . That is like using a screw drive for the job of a maul .Do the tools of one type of mechanic work for other types ? in some cases yes but in some you need special tools .Scientific tools don't fit or work in metaphysics . its that simple .

originally posted by: ClovenSky
a reply to: Woodcarver

My apologies. My argument was all maybes with no scientific proof. I was trying to convey the (maybe) idea of this reality ensuring free will at all times. Prayer affecting reality goes against free will, therefor it doesn't work. Maybe the placebo explanation was a better argument.

I don't think you will be able to prove or disprove prayer through the scientific means that we currently possess.

If one who is scientifically literate were to tackle this problem, would it even be possible to prove? It seems that the consensus is that science could not even take the first step to affirm or deny the effectiveness of prayer. If that is so, then why are so many convinced in the validity of prayers? Faith seems to be the only answer that has ever been offered. Which falls way short of proof or even proper evidence. Just wondering why there is no proper investigation into these claims.