How does prayer work?

originally posted by: visitedbythem

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: visitedbythem

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: visitedbythem
a reply to: Woodcarver

Or perhaps it's not in their best interest in the long run

How is that testable? That just seems like a cop out, and does nothing to explain how prayer actually works. What about entire teams? Surely a win wouldn't be detrimental to every member of a team?

On a personal scale

I was in a serious motorcycle wreck 8 years ago. I was found by a search party, dragged out of the rugged terrain on a sled behind a another dirtbike, and airlifted to a hospital to emergency. My parents were called by the hospital after midnight and told " get down here right away, we have your son here, he has been in an accident and is not expected to live through the night" People began praying for me. I was added to a prayer chain 1 million strong. My kidneys, and liver were off line, billireubin was coming out through the catheter. When I came to in intensive care, I was so weak, I couldn't even focus my eyes. My skin turned yellow. I began to feel something incredible. I felt a spiritual presence. I had a out of body experience that lasted 1 hour, where I flew high above the Earth out in space. I was very aware that I was out of my body. I was very clear, and it was not a dream. After an hour, I was pulled with force back down to the hospital. I hit the hospital bed at high speed, and it didn't even move. I immediately opened my eyes, and told the nurse what had happened. I had energy to focus, and speak. Within the hour my organs started working , urine began to flow, and my color came back. The Doctors were baffled. They sent me to Stanford to a expert, and he said that something inside me had been torn open, way down low, and had been hemorraging, but had somehow sealed back up. They were baffled too.
I felt those prayers. It was amazing and powerful.

The process of dying, our bodies release massive amounts of '___', which is a naturally occuring, highly hallucinogenic molecule created right inside of your brain. This is a well known process and can be measured and monitored in real time. As far as your body healing, that is what bodies do. Not to mention the team of doctors who were working on you. Surely they deserve your credit.

I would be far more convinced if you said you walked out of the woods on your own accord, wrapped in the healing hands of jesus and never even needed to go to a hospital. Buy since no miracles occured, this seems to be very normal circumstances. Doctors save people's lives every day. How is this supposed to support the power of prayer?

I know exactly what you are referring to. It is produced when you are born and when you die, and no it was nothing like that. The doctors expected me to die. The Stanford Specialist was amazed that the hemorrhage sealed on its own. He was also confused as to why the hospital did not follow Standard procedure and open me up for an exploratory. I would have died if they did

It seems as though you were in the care of some very talented physicians. I have heard many stories such as this. All of the story tellers make the same claims. They happily forget the fact that doctors were literally fighting to save your life. Nothing in your story sounds unplausible. All of the details add up to very explainable events. Your story is not unique and your feelings of out of body experience are also quite expected. The doctors may have seemed surprised but when they had to explain it in their reports, do you think they wrote down divine intervention? Or do you suppose they had more reasonable explanations. Blood clotting, their valient efforts, a suture here, an injection there? Did your body glow and float around the room? Was recovery painful or were your wounds miraculously healed in a timeframe that was unreasonable? Where was the miracle?

a reply to: Woodcarver

It seems as though you were in the care of some very talented physicians.

I have a very similar story but being in the care of very talented physicians is not part of it . I could or would share it but why frustrate myself with someone as dismissive as you seem to be .

originally posted by: the2ofusr1
a reply to: Woodcarver

My other pressing question is, with the probable billions of religiously minded scientists, why do none of them set out to prove the very beliefs they feel so strongly? How do they reconsile the lack of proof with their need to be rational and find answers?

Could it be that they have no need to prove something that requires faith to approach ? Could there be a different kind of proof that proves that prayer is answered and can't be quantified in a test tube ? A lot of science is based on mathematical probabilities . meaning its probably true but they don;t have any concrete empirical evidence but only a working theory . There cold be people working on answering your question scientifically as we speak ,much like other questions that science asks .

Do you seriously believe that anyone would turn down the prestige and fame that would come with making such proofs? Are all religiously minded people so altruistic that they would let this opportunity pass them by? I think not. You talk about a different kind of proof? What could that possibly look like? You are dancing in circles now trying to evade reality in an attempt to inject deniability. Why not just take the goat by the horns and finally prove your claims. Why invent such fantastical maneuvers to evade the ultimate goal that any religious practitioner could use to justify to the world that their god is the one true god? You are happy to assert your beliefs are true, why not put serious effort into proving it?

originally posted by: the2ofusr1
a reply to: Woodcarver

It seems as though you were in the care of some very talented physicians.

I have a very similar story but being in the care of very talented physicians is not part of it . I could or would share it but why frustrate myself with someone as dismissive as you seem to be .

Is your constitution really that weak?

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: visitedbythem

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: visitedbythem

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: visitedbythem
a reply to: Woodcarver

Or perhaps it's not in their best interest in the long run

How is that testable? That just seems like a cop out, and does nothing to explain how prayer actually works. What about entire teams? Surely a win wouldn't be detrimental to every member of a team?

On a personal scale

I was in a serious motorcycle wreck 8 years ago. I was found by a search party, dragged out of the rugged terrain on a sled behind a another dirtbike, and airlifted to a hospital to emergency. My parents were called by the hospital after midnight and told " get down here right away, we have your son here, he has been in an accident and is not expected to live through the night" People began praying for me. I was added to a prayer chain 1 million strong. My kidneys, and liver were off line, billireubin was coming out through the catheter. When I came to in intensive care, I was so weak, I couldn't even focus my eyes. My skin turned yellow. I began to feel something incredible. I felt a spiritual presence. I had a out of body experience that lasted 1 hour, where I flew high above the Earth out in space. I was very aware that I was out of my body. I was very clear, and it was not a dream. After an hour, I was pulled with force back down to the hospital. I hit the hospital bed at high speed, and it didn't even move. I immediately opened my eyes, and told the nurse what had happened. I had energy to focus, and speak. Within the hour my organs started working , urine began to flow, and my color came back. The Doctors were baffled. They sent me to Stanford to a expert, and he said that something inside me had been torn open, way down low, and had been hemorraging, but had somehow sealed back up. They were baffled too.
I felt those prayers. It was amazing and powerful.

The process of dying, our bodies release massive amounts of '___', which is a naturally occuring, highly hallucinogenic molecule created right inside of your brain. This is a well known process and can be measured and monitored in real time. As far as your body healing, that is what bodies do. Not to mention the team of doctors who were working on you. Surely they deserve your credit.

I would be far more convinced if you said you walked out of the woods on your own accord, wrapped in the healing hands of jesus and never even needed to go to a hospital. Buy since no miracles occured, this seems to be very normal circumstances. Doctors save people's lives every day. How is this supposed to support the power of prayer?

I know exactly what you are referring to. It is produced when you are born and when you die, and no it was nothing like that. The doctors expected me to die. The Stanford Specialist was amazed that the hemorrhage sealed on its own. He was also confused as to why the hospital did not follow Standard procedure and open me up for an exploratory. I would have died if they did

It seems as though you were in the care of some very talented physicians. I have heard many stories such as this. All of the story tellers make the same claims. They happily forget the fact that doctors were literally fighting to save your life. Nothing in your story sounds unplausible. All of the details add up to very explainable events. Your story is not unique and your feelings of out of body experience are also quite expected. The doctors may have seemed surprised but when they had to explain it in their reports, do you think they wrote down divine intervention? Or do you suppose they had more reasonable explanations. Blood clotting, their valient efforts, a suture here, an injection there? Did your body glow and float around the room? Was recovery painful or were your wounds miraculously healed in a timeframe that was unreasonable? Where was the miracle?

They did nothing but x ray my entire body and put in a catheter, and call my parent to say that would be dead within hours. They also asked me to return and tell them what the specialist's opinion was. All he knew was that I had been bleeding profusely internally, and couldn't explain how something that serious sealed up.
No, I do think it was the hand of God, that was moved by others prayer. Thousands and thousands of people. Someone online on the East coast , said they heard about me and that I was supposed top die. Im in California.

I actually felt something, a presence and a power, and then I healed right then. The nurse was excited and believed me as well, especially as she saw be heal rapidly during her night shift.
You may believe as you wish though. The kicker was what happened when I got home. The most amazing thing. I received a very special visit. Im having tears right now, just thinking about it. That's really all I can tell you.

originally posted by: visitedbythem

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: visitedbythem

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: visitedbythem

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: visitedbythem
a reply to: Woodcarver

Or perhaps it's not in their best interest in the long run

How is that testable? That just seems like a cop out, and does nothing to explain how prayer actually works. What about entire teams? Surely a win wouldn't be detrimental to every member of a team?

On a personal scale

I was in a serious motorcycle wreck 8 years ago. I was found by a search party, dragged out of the rugged terrain on a sled behind a another dirtbike, and airlifted to a hospital to emergency. My parents were called by the hospital after midnight and told " get down here right away, we have your son here, he has been in an accident and is not expected to live through the night" People began praying for me. I was added to a prayer chain 1 million strong. My kidneys, and liver were off line, billireubin was coming out through the catheter. When I came to in intensive care, I was so weak, I couldn't even focus my eyes. My skin turned yellow. I began to feel something incredible. I felt a spiritual presence. I had a out of body experience that lasted 1 hour, where I flew high above the Earth out in space. I was very aware that I was out of my body. I was very clear, and it was not a dream. After an hour, I was pulled with force back down to the hospital. I hit the hospital bed at high speed, and it didn't even move. I immediately opened my eyes, and told the nurse what had happened. I had energy to focus, and speak. Within the hour my organs started working , urine began to flow, and my color came back. The Doctors were baffled. They sent me to Stanford to a expert, and he said that something inside me had been torn open, way down low, and had been hemorraging, but had somehow sealed back up. They were baffled too.
I felt those prayers. It was amazing and powerful.

The process of dying, our bodies release massive amounts of '___', which is a naturally occuring, highly hallucinogenic molecule created right inside of your brain. This is a well known process and can be measured and monitored in real time. As far as your body healing, that is what bodies do. Not to mention the team of doctors who were working on you. Surely they deserve your credit.

I would be far more convinced if you said you walked out of the woods on your own accord, wrapped in the healing hands of jesus and never even needed to go to a hospital. Buy since no miracles occured, this seems to be very normal circumstances. Doctors save people's lives every day. How is this supposed to support the power of prayer?

I know exactly what you are referring to. It is produced when you are born and when you die, and no it was nothing like that. The doctors expected me to die. The Stanford Specialist was amazed that the hemorrhage sealed on its own. He was also confused as to why the hospital did not follow Standard procedure and open me up for an exploratory. I would have died if they did

It seems as though you were in the care of some very talented physicians. I have heard many stories such as this. All of the story tellers make the same claims. They happily forget the fact that doctors were literally fighting to save your life. Nothing in your story sounds unplausible. All of the details add up to very explainable events. Your story is not unique and your feelings of out of body experience are also quite expected. The doctors may have seemed surprised but when they had to explain it in their reports, do you think they wrote down divine intervention? Or do you suppose they had more reasonable explanations. Blood clotting, their valient efforts, a suture here, an injection there? Did your body glow and float around the room? Was recovery painful or were your wounds miraculously healed in a timeframe that was unreasonable? Where was the miracle?

They did nothing but x ray my entire body and put in a catheter, and call my parent to say that would be dead within hours. They also asked me to return and tell them what the specialist's opinion was. All he knew was that I had been bleeding profusely internally, and couldn't explain how something that serious sealed up.
No, I do think it was the hand of God, that was moved by others prayer. Thousands and thousands of people. Someone online on the East coast , said they heard about me and that I was supposed top die. Im in California.

I actually felt something, a presence and a power, and then I healed right then. The nurse was excited and believed me as well, especially as she saw be heal rapidly during her night shift.
You may believe as you wish though. The kicker was what happened when I got home. The most amazing thing. I received a very special visit. Im having tears right now, just thinking about it. That's really all I can tell you.

Well, again, i missed the miraculous part. Bodies heal, that is what they do. Especially after hours of surgery and the attentive care of qualified medical staff. At what point did a miracle occur? Are you implying that jesus/god paid a personal visit? Why does god only visit people when they are hallucinating from a near death event? Or when they are on serious drugs to ease the pain of such a tragic event? Nothing spectacular in this tale. It is likewise to be expected in such a scenario.

One question, not that it matters. Were you a believer before your accident?

There was no surgery. There were no drugs. These things do happen more often then most people think. I had a lady friend that was on the operating table, and witnessed her operation from above. She later amazed the doctors as she described everything that took place in the room and what each person was doing. She was out of her body

And yes I was a believer since I was a kid, but never had any supernatural contact until I was 26. Before that there were times that I questioned if there really was a God. Not after that though. I cant remember when the motorcycle accident was. I may have been in my late 40s. I am 59

originally posted by: visitedbythem
There was no surgery. There were no drugs. These things do happen more often then most people think. I had a lady friend that was on the operating table, and witnessed her operation from above. She later amazed the doctors as she described everything that took place in the room and what each person was doing. She was out of her body

You have an amazing story of a miracle and thank you for sharing it. It does my heart and faith much good to hear true stories such as this one and inspires me to pray for others out there this very minute that I may not even know personally.

I'm not sure what kind of " proof" Woodcarver is looking for .. but rest assured in my opinion your story is a true miracle story .

a reply to: Sheye

Thanks so much!

God Bless!

a reply to: Woodcarver

Is your constitution really that weak?

No just complicated .you wouldn't or couldn't understand it . it is faith based .

Actually, Biblically speaking, Love is entirely something else. You are describing infatuation, or Hollywood love. That doesn't last.

originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: the2ofusr1
a reply to: Woodcarver

Let me ask you if love exist .and if so ,show me how you prove it .you can use hate inside your explanation as a counter to or in a similar way .

Love is quite well known and understood. It is a consensual emotional bond between two people. This can be measured in several ways, chemical analysis would show an increase in dopamine when shown a picture of a loved one while being scanned within an MRI machine. It can also be measured by simply studying people's body language or reactions to interpersonal stimuli.

Not sure how proving the existence of love can also prove the existence of gods or the efficacy of prayer. I think you would be very hard pressed to find a person who denys the existence of love. The same chemical effects can be found in most mammalian species.

articles.latimes.com...

a reply to: visitedbythem

Only answer if you wish to share it .

Do you remember how the body felt and where the power was connected/entangled on your body and if there was fluctuations in the power?

From my point of view the spiritual (extra normal reality) is very logical.

Out of body, the placebo effect and nocebo effect can logically explained if you want to seek the explanation and look into the technical aspects on how it is implemented. One part would be energetic body states where energies (warm/cold/tingles) are flowing thru the body that can be felt depending on the calibration of the senses/body and how much energy is flowing thru.

Reiki/laying of hands is a real thing that makes the body relax and self heal and sometimes even program the probability field to change the shape of the energy on quantum level. Sometimes manipulated thru entanglement so location is not really a factor.

If you go into seeking to understand telepathy you will sooner or later get to the point where you notice the "objective raw data to subjective information degradation" since you see that the information propagates differently depending on how the brain/body is organized.

Those who seek logical clarity will sooner or later receive/create it with their curiosity.

Some Quantum Physics have become like the clergy in Catholic church. God Moves in a Mysterious Way.

"If you think you understand quantum mechanics, you don't understand quantum mechanics."

originally posted by: LittleByLittle
a reply to: visitedbythem

Only answer if you wish to share it

.

Do you remember how the body felt and where the power was connected/entangled on your body and if there was fluctuations in the power?

Wow! Yes. It was like a warm mantle that spread over my body, but it also very personal. It was filled with Love. Not infatuation, but real Love. I just don't know how to convey this, it is beyond words. was a true Love, and it was proven by the immediate cure of a condition that Physicians thought impossible. I still was weak for several days,but I was able to work in a steel mill 31 days later. Everyone was confused. The doctor in the hospital to know what what happened and why. The specialist had no answer.

a reply to: visitedbythem

.

a reply to: Woodcarver
I take it you don't study science. All energy is physical if you were to remove everything physical from the universe you would rightfully remove all energy. There is no energy that is not physical.

This is exactly why men created the sub atomic colliders around the world. To study the physical effects that cause Energy to turn into matter. They call it the "God Particle".

They will never find it, ever trying but never coming to the truth they think they are seeking.

Because when it comes down to it not all energy "as we know it" has a physical cause or source.

The energy they are seeking to prove as physical is not physical. but believing it is they are going to the sub atomic levels believing they will find a small physical answer for their theory. in the end they will fail to ever prove that energy is all physical.

And so far that is proving true.

So if you eliminate the logical, that being that all energy is physical. Then you are only left with the probable which is that not all energy is Physical, and that to science so called is illogical.

a reply to: the2ofusr1 Maybe a better example might be like those picture things that you stare at to see a picture emerge .I have friends that can do it but I cant seem to make it work and no matter which way they describe to me how to do it ,I just don't get it . Trying how to describe the hows and whys of a thing like prayer is the same as those pictures .Some people get it and others don't .....prayer ....some people get it and some people don't...

And the proof to me that those pictures do what they do is because other people say they do .I have to trust other people that say its so . Yes faith is a kind of complicated thing where the view is much much different from the outside .

a reply to: Woodcarver

A placebo effect is a trick to the conscious mind, a lie in short. Doctors do it all the time when they cannot find the answer for someones illnesses, by telling you that this pill is the cure for your ill. You believing it take the pill and are cured while all along it was only sugar. This proves that one illness was what science calls it "psychosis of the mind" Where ones mind creates the illness and believes only a doctor can help. Not finding any cause the doctor uses a placebo (a lie) to trick the persons mind creating an opposite psychosis of the mind" that one is cured.

The "placebo effect" is in effect an incorrect way to describe prayer and it s answer, or non-answer.

Seeing prayer is a "Religious" and or "Spiritual", one must first study those religions that use prayer as part of their daily routine. BTW, an act of doing anything on a day to day or moment by moment, smoking regularly, getting drunk regularly, playing the Lotto regularly or praying regularly and etcetera, is in and of itself a religious practice.

The easiest to get your hands on, and that has prayer pretty much lined out, is the AV Bible. All other religions don't have as much information about prayer, its effects, and why answered or not answered as does the AV Bible.

Just get a simple Bible program like PowerBibleCD. And then put into the search engine all the words found in the verses of the AV Bible for Prayer. Those words are Pray, Prays, Prayer, Prayers, Prayed, Praying, and Prayeth. List out the verses. Read them in their context and glean the answer about prayer. answer why they are praying, who is praying, is the prayer asking for something, is the prayer a supplication, or a request for another, When and where did they pray? How did they pray? were they standing sitting, kneeling? Where were they when they prayed.

This is the first step to your own scientific examination of Prayer.

Get all the knowledge you need to base your experiment on. Yes, that is right you are going to have to do some experimentation with prayer following that which you have gained, so that by observation and action you will get the answers you are seeking. That is true science.

I think this link will help in getting you started. Pray/Prayer/Praying -A Word Study, and this second link to the same site on a different page (scroll down to the second post in that page) and you will find some more helpful information Biblical Prayer

Maybe some others will have links to other pages but this is a Christian one. Always good to start somewhere.

The best knowledge, wisdom and understanding one can get on this subject, comes not from others but from your own study and experimentation. In the end you will have all the answers you asked for in your OP.

My prayers go with you.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn

a reply to: Woodcarver
I take it you don't study science. All energy is physical if you were to remove everything physical from the universe you would rightfully remove all energy. There is no energy that is not physical.

This is exactly why men created the sub atomic colliders around the world. To study the physical effects that cause Energy to turn into matter. They call it the "God Particle".

They will never find it, ever trying but never coming to the truth they think they are seeking.

Because when it comes down to it not all energy "as we know it" has a physical cause or source.

The energy they are seeking to prove as physical is not physical. but believing it is they are going to the sub atomic levels believing they will find a small physical answer for their theory. in the end they will fail to ever prove that energy is all physical.

And so far that is proving true.

So if you eliminate the logical, that being that all energy is physical. Then you are only left with the probable which is that not all energy is Physical, and that to science so called is illogical.

Literally everything you just posted was inaccurate.

I'll start at the beginning.

They are not sub atomic colliders, they are particle colliders. As in hydrogen atoms. Physical hydrogen atoms sped up to near light speed and smashed into other hydrogen particles.

The "god particle" was a term that was misused by media because they couldn't print the term god damned particle. The phrase that fermilab scientists used to describe what we now call the Higg's boson. because they had been looking for ways to detect it since the 60's. They actually have been very successful at "finding" it, and now they believe that there may be multiple versions of it. It is an elementary particle. Which means it is very much in the physical realm. en.m.wikipedia.org...

And yes, alllllll energy is of a physical nature. As can be proven with a famous little equation you might recognise as Einstein's "relativity" E=mc2

My only question is will you admit that you were wrong?