Jesus also crucified for the demons?

I got to looking at the thread about Jesus wedding and read the list of forbidden teachings by Emperor Justinian in 533 AD.

I found some of these fascinating. For example,

[...]

II. If anyone says or thinks that the soul of the Lord pre-existed and was united with God the Word before the Incarnation and Conception of the Virgin, let him be anathema.

Does this mean that some Christians do not believe that Jesus existed in heaven before coming to earth? I don't understand why this teaching was offensive as it seems to be the dominant belief these days.

III. If anyone says or thinks that the body of our Lord Jesus Christ was first formed in the womb of the holy Virgin and that afterwards there was united with it God the Word and the pre-existing soul, let him be anathema.

Same here. Why was this forbidden? Most Christians believe that this is how it went, right?

However, nothing has ever been said to me about this one:

VII. If anyone says or thinks that Christ the Lord in a future time will be crucified for demons as he was for men, let him be anathema.

Uh, this is DEFINITELY not believed by Christians today, is it? It's a pretty odd concept. What is being implied here? What are the implications? Was this an essene belief? Is there a link between these beliefs and the Hindu belief system?

I am honestly curious.



[edit on 30-1-2005 by smallpeeps]

1. We are told quite clearly that Jesus always existed--God did not create him, for Christ was present even at the creation, as is told by the Apostle Paul in one of his letters.

2. I'm not so sure what the second one is saying so I won't comment.

3. As far as I know, the demons have no more chance of repentance than Satan himself, for they're all in the same boat. The entire reason that they go on tempting mankind is because they know that no matter what, they're screwed, so they might as well take down as many of God's people as possible. Think about it--having no chance puts them in a place of being permanent enemies of God and his creation, and they will continue to be a thorn in his side even to the hour that they are thrown into the lake of fire.

More could be said on that third subject, but it's very difficult and most of it is in theory, as the Bible doesn't talk near as much about angels and demons as most people would like, its primary concern being with us, humans.

I second that! Demons are something we are to be delivered FROM, their fates were decided at the fall of Lucifer... They are in the same boat as Lucifer was and is, thus they will never be saved. That is why we suffer so much on this earth, because Satan and his demons are jealous of us... Why? Because we are still under the grace of God and they will never be.

Icelandia

well, your hitting upon the hijacking and corruption of what God left by man. What we have today is a jigsaw puzzle in the Bible, disjointed teachings that served the power structure at the time it was stitched together. Somone in power didnt like what jesus did from age 12 to 30, so they simply Erased it. Pitifull that more people dont ask questions like this, and more Christians dont search the truth, as Jesus commanded.


Why is emperor justinian commenting in any way shape or form what jesus is? If memory serves me, that was also the rough time that the remaining literature in Alexandria was destroyed; mostly scriptures and teachings left by the early church. Why is Popular Christianity based upon the interpretations of Paul, and not on what jesus taught and did..?
They serve a Political purpose, one that ensures wealth and control to the organized church at that time, and continues to this day.

Demons, in a literal sense of entities, do not exist...sorry to burst your bubble.

My question is this: Is God's grace not sufficient for demons? Is God incapable of forgiving demons and the devil if they ask for it?

IMHO: It is not our place to judge this (or anyone else for that matter). In the fullness of time, ALL will go back to ONE for ALL came from ONE. That includes what we perceive to be evil / devil / demons.

Obviously, nothing can stay in the state of darkness and be in the light at the same time so change is required upon the part of those seeking forgiveness. Can demons repent? How can we even begin to answer a question like this without having experienced the state of consciousness of a demon?

Peace,

~Jammer+

Originally posted by smallpeeps
Why was this forbidden? Most Christians believe that this is how it went, right?

These first two get into what is the nature of jesus, how much was man, how much was god, and the like. If jesus exists in his entirety before conception, then whats this lump of flesh all about, and if he existsed as a man before having any god like aspect, then what does that say about his actual divinity. This and other sorts of things were major issue in the pre Gret Schism church. I suspect that you might find that most greek orthodox religious thinkers will have a different opinion on this sort of thing than most baptists or catholics.

Uh, this is DEFINITELY not believed by Christians today, is it? It's a pretty odd concept. What is being implied here? What are the implications? Was this an essene belief? Is there a link between these beliefs and the Hindu belief system?

I suppose that tehy are reasoning that demons, like men, were created by god and have fallen, therefore do they not also deserve of whatever redemption jesus brings about in being crucified. Its a rational thing to consider I suppose. I've never heard of anyone promoting that sort of thing tho. Declaring it anathema must've done the trick.

Where does it say Jesus existed at the creation exactly? I just want to read that because I honestly haven't heard that before.

Demons, in a literal sense of entities, do not exist...sorry to burst your bubble.

When you say this, it is entirely your own opinion, and I respect that. But demons are supposed to exist in both a literal sense and figurative sense. In the literal, they are simply fallen angels who have been judged, they may have no real sway or interaction with us ie. they don't cause mental illness, or any other illness on us, they can't posess us. In the figurative sense, they are the evils that lurk in our minds, and in that way, they can possess us.

According to some early gnostic beliefs, Jesus was born man, not God, he was born of a virgin in the sense that mary had not been corrupted like so many, and Jesus was so intelligent, wise, righteous and whatnot, that he became of God, Jesus was given a divinity and the right to die for all of our sins. I think this account makes a little more sense than what the church teaches, but that's just my opinion.

I don't know the exact reference for where it is stated that Jesus was present at the creation. It was in one of the books of Paul, and I will try to find the reference for you. Both in hearing discussion on the Bible and in reading it myself, I've come over it several times.

As to the fellow who stated demons don't exist, I'm sorry to burst HIS bubble but they do. You will find demons all through the New Testament, as demons are merely the fallen angels. Satan exists just as much as God, and demons exist just as much as angels.

I'm not going to argue with people who don't believe the Bible. I have a large amount of knowledge concerning the Scriptures and can answer most questions on any subject therein, but when people start throwing out the Bible as an unreliable source when that is the very subject that they're discussing, it all becomes pointless. As the writer of Ecclesiastes said, "like chasing the wind."