March for Life - a pro-choice stance

a reply to: DBCowboy

sorry cowboy, i just think dumb views are dumb, not any view i don't agree with.

originally posted by: veracity

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: veracity

You put the caveat of "free" in there.

If you want birth control, then purchase it.

I like whiskey. Should that be free as well?

grrr... i will copy and paste again...

Free birth control means,

More women on birth control...less unplanned pregnancies...less abortions...get it?

Instead of the standard birth control, what if the government offered free chasity belts? As another poster pointed out...less sex=less pregnancy.

Honestly, though, I personally would not want to get behind that either. Government needs to stay out of the bedroom, responsibility falls on the individuals involved.

Edit add on: Woman make a choice to have intercourse. They have a choice to use birth control. I realize some who feel like victims say they have no choice. (not talking rape here) We need to address the reason women perceive they have no real choice in whether they have intercourse or if choosing to do so, cannot use birth control.

a reply to: CynConcepts

suicide and getting knocked up are not comparable to me.

I also know people who have had abortions that greatly regret it if that is what you are talking about, as well as people who know it was the best decision and do not regret it.

Its a choice they have to make...even with the consequences down the road of regret and shame.

Its their choice, not yours or the governments.

originally posted by: veracity
a reply to: DBCowboy

Exactly DC, Im against murder as well for myself, but if others want to kill...its their choice...good luck, don't get caught...i wouldn't do it if i were you...but i can't force you not to do it...

I know it will always be an issue and trust me, I can empathize why people see it as murder, i just think it is very selfish and close-minded. Its still pushing your beliefs onto others.

Why do you care so much what others do? Its a serious question.

See? That's moral relativism.

You are against murder, but you're really not because you think it's fine if others want to murder. So how against murder are you really?

Either there is another human in the equation or there isn't. There is no discussion on that.

Now we can discuss whether or not there are tragic circumstance under which human beings sometimes lose their lives or we must end up sacrificing a life (life of the mother either/or cases), but you are either someone who believes that we are talking about two human beings or we aren't. And that once we establish that, then we talking about ending the life of one of those two individuals.

And if that happens purely out of the convenience of one of those two, then it looks like murder, walks like murder, if murder ... or at least it would be if we were talking about, say, you and kaylaluv. One of you could not simply decide that the other was inconvenient and kill her off. Clearly, everyone would agree that was murder. But if she was your child to be, you can?

Makes no sense to me at all.

originally posted by: CynConcepts

originally posted by: veracity

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: veracity

You put the caveat of "free" in there.

If you want birth control, then purchase it.

I like whiskey. Should that be free as well?

grrr... i will copy and paste again...

Free birth control means,

More women on birth control...less unplanned pregnancies...less abortions...get it?

Instead of the standard birth control, what if the government offered free chasity belts? As another poster pointed out...less sex=less pregnancy.

Honestly, though, I personally would not want to get behind that either. Government needs to stay out of the bedroom, responsibility falls on the individuals involved.

so...you are joking about the chasity belts, right

a reply to: CynConcepts

We could pay women to get on birth control. I wouldn't mind my taxes going to that. Give them a financial incentive.

I'd rather we pay the men to use condoms. Some birth control can be hazardous to women's health. Accidents still happen with condoms though - they can break.

The chastity belt thing - that ain't gonna work. The boys will find a way around it or through it, trust me.

This all makes me think of animal rights activists trashing a fastfood restaraunt because they think that meat is murder.

In their minds it really is a matter life and death, and the patrons of the restaraunt just dont understand the severity of the situation, all they need is to have their eyes opened to the obvious evils that are all around them!

So they play videos of slaughter houses and show pictures of cute pigs, because once people see these things they'll be aware of the horrors they support and will change their ignorant ways.

Because they feel that meat is murder, no one should be allowed to eat bacon anymore.

a reply to: ketsuko

2nd level thinking is not one of your strong points. Just bc I'm against abortion, does not mean that i want to push that on others.

And just bc I am against murder, all the marches on washington and signs i hold up "murder is murder" will not stop psychopaths from murdering.

Its the value of NOT pushing your beliefs onto others that goes in one ear and out the other to most people. As you can see from a poster above, she does not even see it as pushing her beliefs on others...that never even crossed her mind.

a reply to: wheresthebody

Irony being that as someone with one toe barely on the farm (grandfather was) and having grown up fishing, I know precisely what it takes to put meat on my table.

I respect that.

I understand that they love animals a lot and it hurts them.

But I also don't equate animals to people.

originally posted by: wheresthebody
This all makes me think of animal rights activists trashing a fastfood restaraunt because they think that meat is murder.

In their minds it really is a matter life and death, and the patrons of the restaraunt just dont understand the severity of the situation, all they need is to have their eyes opened to the obvious evils that are all around them!

So they play videos of slaughter houses and show pictures of cute pigs, because once people see these things they'll be aware of the horrors they support and will change their ignorant ways.

Because they feel that meat is murder, no one should be allowed to eat bacon anymore.

its exactly like that

originally posted by: veracity
a reply to: ketsuko

2nd level thinking is not one of your strong points. Just bc I'm against abortion, does not mean that i want to push that on others.

And just bc I am against murder, all the marches on washington and signs i hold up "murder is murder" will not stop psychopaths from murdering.

Its the value of NOT pushing your beliefs onto others that goes in one ear and out the other to most people. As you can see from a poster above, she does not even see it as pushing her beliefs on others...that never even crossed her mind.

Then we should abolish murder laws.

Those laws push our beliefs on others.

a reply to: ketsuko

I see abortion and family planning completely different from murder.

Sorry you make that comparison...very 1st level thinking.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: wheresthebody

Irony being that as someone with one toe barely on the farm (grandfather was) and having grown up fishing, I know precisely what it takes to put meat on my table.

I respect that.

I understand that they love animals a lot and it hurts them.

But I also don't equate animals to people.

both completely different issues (fetuses vs. animals) but exactly the same as in "Pushing your beliefs onto others"

originally posted by: kaylaluv
a reply to: CynConcepts

We could pay women to get on birth control. I wouldn't mind my taxes going to that. Give them a financial incentive.

I'd rather we pay the men to use condoms. Some birth control can be hazardous to women's health. Accidents still happen with condoms though - they can break.

The chastity belt thing - that ain't gonna work. The boys will find a way around it or through it, trust me.

Obviously, I was being sarcastic with the chasity belts. I can get on board with trying to ensure woman and men who need birth control can be assisted with getting them. I just don't believe a government mandate is freedom of choice. Government needs to stay out of such personal subjects. Private charities could accept donations for those specifics. I would probably donate, but I certainly don't expect others to be forced to donate. That is real personal choice.

a reply to: CynConcepts

a gov't mandate for free birth control to all will be much, MUCH more effective in decreasing abortions than donations to free birth control.

Do you want to decrease abortions by a lot? or little.

a reply to: ketsuko

Where is the irony?

originally posted by: wheresthebody
I'm continually amazed how on this site, with a community of so many people so very passionate about personal freedom and liberty, that so many people argue for forcing women to do things with their body against their will.

I don't see anyone arguing to force women to do anything against their will with their bodies here.
I do however see people arguing for women and men to act more sensibly when it comes to sex and bringing life into this world. Is forcing common sense a violation of personal freedoms?

I'm Pro-Choice until it becomes abused.
When abortion is used as a form of routine birth control or to manipulate someone is where I draw the line. These people have proven incapable of making rational decisions and should be punished.
NOT GIVEN FREE AFFORDABLE ABORTIONS FOR LIFE!

a reply to: JAY1980

Denying a woman access to abortion if she wants one while she is pregnant is forcing her into a sutuation against her will.

How can you argue that?

originally posted by: veracity
a reply to: ketsuko

I see abortion and family planning completely different from murder.

Sorry you make that comparison...very 1st level thinking.

Now we're talking about your statement that you don't push your beliefs on to others.

You said you could never have an abortion because that was your baby. In other words, it was a human to you. So it would have been murder.

If an abortion is murder, then you believe murder is wrong, but if murder is wrong, then you should think no one else ought to murder ... but you also don't want to force your beliefs on to others.

So why is one murder different from another?

Murder to me is murder. No one ought to be able to simply murder a person because they want to conveniently believe that a human is not a human. I do not magically adjust my beliefs to make something convenient for others.

Perhaps you do? That is not first or second level thinking or indicate a lack of ability thereof. What it really indicate is a lack of ability on your part to stand strong in your beliefs.

If you really believed that abortion is wrong, then you would believe it was wrong. If you believed it would be murder, then you would believe it was murder all the time, no matter how uncomfortable it would make you feel to have to own that position in front of others.

Saying I think it's wrong for me, but others can do it and it's fine for them, is the same as saying it's fine.

We are back at square one. This is moral relativism. It's not fine for you, but it's fine for others which means implicitly that it's fine for you too.

a reply to: ketsuko


whoa whoa, I never said abortion is murder.

I said I couldn't abort my baby...but I am still pro-choice.

It may take some time, but I have all hope that if you try, you will be able to wrap your head around that.