Here is What happens inside a Mosque

a reply to: paraphi

If you look at my 2nd post in this thread (HERE), I pointed out how ridiculous it is to act like one mosque speaks for all or even most Muslims. I even pointed out how worthless of an example it is if no one would identify the denomination, "school of thought", or interpretation that the speakers are from. I even said "That's no different than me pointing to the controversial teachings of a church in Rwanda or Mississippi and claiming that it accurately represents all Christians worldwide." So why do people like you keep acting like that represents all or even most of us?

And saying that you were born in a Muslim majority country only makes your ignorance of what's actually in the Qur'an even more glaring. Guess what? There are non-practicing Muslims just as there are non-practicing members of other religions! Unlike you, I actually pointed out from scripture what Muslims are supposed to do. So when Muslims do bad crap that goes against the literal teachings in the Qur'an, how is Islam to blame for that? If anything, their refusal to follow the Quran's teachings that I linked is to blame for their actions.

And one more thing, the "Muslim on Muslim" violence argument is just as ridiculous as the "black on black crime" arguments. Statistically speaking, people will always have more confrontations with members of their own demographics because they're typically around their own demographic the most. That goes for Muslims, Hindus, Jews, Buddhists, and more. So even though the vast majority of crimes and violence in the West are "Christian on Christian" violence and "white on white crime", they don't seem to get the same labels or stigma. Why the double standard?

As for irony, I'm also posting in a separate thread which contains a lot of veiled & direct threats against Mexico right now (HERE). But since both the US and Mexico are Christian-majority countries, surely people like you will decry the "Christian against Christian violence" that's suggested there, right? Right? Why can't the Protestants in the US get along with the Catholics in Mexico? It must be a revival of their multiple centuries long blood feud, right? Or do other motives like jobs, trade, politics, law & order, nationalist pride, and stereotypes only apply to Christians, as if Muslim majority countries can't have the same dynamics & rivalries?

a reply to: 23432
Nope. Not as long as these radical muslims are teaching there children that there is a heaven waiting for them when they kill us infidels.
That is just plain sick. And as a father I can't blame the children born to these animals who preach nothing but hatred, of course they cherry pick certain chapters and verses to suit there own suicidel needs and try to justify this?

So no I won't bugger off. You can't make me do a dam thing.

a reply to: AceWombat04

There is one quran, it hasn't changed in 1400 years.
Yet we are faced with a quite aggressive form of islam which either is islam or is simply a false notion of islam.

Doesn't it bother you that something so pure in itself (religious mind) has been turned into the dust of the earth?

There is also only one yggdrasill, it would be quite easy for me to write a big thick book that will serve as the word of god.
It will be quite violent because god knows and sees right through you, he'll grab you and drag you out of your cozy little hiding place and than he beats you where he can.
You clothes torn off and bloody due to the beating, and you'll beg him to stop.
But he does not stop, he knows your not ready to lay at his feet in complete surrender, parts of you still resist him and the begging is because you want him to stop.
But he simply continues, he beats you and eventually you'll break completely, now you are ready to lay naked at his feet in complete surrender.

It is really easy to make a new doctrine with the use of sacred texts.
And it is just the start, naked and in complete surrender, we know nothing, we are nothing.
Just a pathetic heap of meat and bones which we cite to as 'i'.
And the 'i' is never innocent, hence it can be insulted, be angered, become violent and so on.
Hence, we are either food for the wolves, or we become a master.

Suppose that some out of my circle did not understood it properly and give a completely wrong and harmful interpretation, it is my responsibility to set it right.

The same goes for those who teach islam, it is the responsibility of islamic pundits.
Do you have another vision on this?
I mean regular muslims can condem such hateful indoctrination, but it does not stop.
Moreover, their children are the ones who are victim to this kind of indoctrination, so it is only natural that it is condemned.
Yet it has grown over the years, condemnation is simply not enough.
Action is needed from higher islamic authorities.

There is no time frame, nor is the question "what will the country do" the right question.
If this goes on we are on the path to violent conflicts which will only be more fuel for the fire.
The discontent towards islam has grown quite substantially in the last 5 years due to the attacks.

a reply to: earthling42
EXACTLY
bang on right, this is the sorry state that a few radicals will carry on spewing this filth into the minds of there youth.
I don't see any hope for these types and I support an aggressive stance to those who practice and preach this corrupt form of Islam. Hunt every last one down till there gone. Isis etc are not true to the teachings in the Koran like I said they cherry pick certain parts and bastardise them to fit there agenda. It's the children I feel for,brainwashed into thinking it's there duty to kill and become a Marta and reap the rewards. Sick animals who preach this hatred.

a reply to: earthling42
Your post reminds me of the tale of the 5 monkeys.

When you are beat into submission, there is no longer a need to understand why you are told to believe something, and there is no desire or reward in hearing the truth.

That is why indoctrination works so well.

a reply to: earthling42

With respect... I don't feel you've answered a single of my questions.

There is only one Quran... but no mater how many times you insist there is but one Islam, the fact remains that there are numerous interpretations; numerous schools of thought, sects, doctrines, and forms under the banner of Islam. Just as there are numerous denominations under the banner of Christianity. No the two aren't analogous, but it remains true. In addition to Sunni, Shia, Sufi, and Wahhabi, there are also literally hundreds of smaller sub groups and sects.

You acknowledge that many Muslims condemn those who carry out these atrocities, disagree with them, do not share their ideology or beliefs (unless, again, you believe that's not the case... do you?) But you then say those they condemn are not changed by their condemnation, and that "it is the responsibility of Islamic pundits." What can a pundit do other than create a narrative and express themselves? What more than condemnation by Islamic pundits, teaching by Islamic Imams, and resistance against such ideologies by practicing Muslims, do you want to see done?

All poetry and analogy aside... you still haven't said what it is you want those who already condemn those actions and beliefs, to do in addition to that.

What, specifically, all verbiage aside, in a strict, utilitarian, factual way, do you want to see done?

Peace.

a reply to: enlightenedservant

Yes, we all know that there is lots of crap in the world, but the Muslim on Muslim violence is about religion. The violence in America is not. Nor is the violence in Mexico or a hundred other places. Trying to compare the two is a bit like apples and oranges. There are exceptions, of course, but roll with the vast majority.

Back to the OP, which is about hate driven education. Teaching little Muslim boys to hate and be divided against Kaffirs and all that. Kicking kids while they try to learn the Qur'an. It's all nice to excuse it, but I suggest that this type of "education" is the glue that keeps places like Iran and Pakistan together, alongside most other majority Muslim nations. And, as stated, you can never escape because of apostasy. You can paper over it, but how many lapsed Muslims are there in Iran?

originally posted by: paraphi
a reply to: enlightenedservant

Yes, we all know that there is lots of crap in the world, but the Muslim on Muslim violence is about religion. The violence in America is not. Nor is the violence in Mexico or a hundred other places. Trying to compare the two is a bit like apples and oranges. There are exceptions, of course, but roll with the vast majority.

BS The violence is about the same things that other humans fight over: money, power, family, revenge, nationalism, etc. When one set of powerbrokers want to barge in on the territory of another set of powerbrokers, they use the same tactics to sway their respective publics. Lies, propaganda, stereotypes, greed, etc are effective in all cultures. Just because you believe the hype doesn't make the hype true.

Back to the OP, which is about hate driven education. Teaching little Muslim boys to hate and be divided against Kaffirs and all that. Kicking kids while they try to learn the Qur'an. It's all nice to excuse it, but I suggest that this type of "education" is the glue that keeps places like Iran and Pakistan together, alongside most other majority Muslim nations. And, as stated, you can never escape because of apostasy. You can paper over it, but how many lapsed Muslims are there in Iran?

I already showed you & everyone else reading this thread what the Qur'an actually says about how we should treat unbelievers. There's an entire Revelation/Surah dedicated strictly to that matter! So any self proclaimed Muslim who doesn't follow it is doing so in spite of Islam's teachings, not because of them. You keep ignoring that because it doesn't fit your narrow minded view of what Islam is supposed to be about.

a reply to: enlightenedservant

So, the violence and brutality being meted out across the Middle East, North and West and East Africa has sod-all to do with religion. Nothing to do with the age-old conflict between Sunnis and Shias going back to c. 630AD, or the hatred of Sunnis and Yazidis, or anything like that. Nothing to do with the intent to exterminate difference and create two dimensional caliphates and countries. It's all about other things, and religion pays no part. The suicide bombers and minions are just having a laugh and squabbling over rent?

Tell that to the huge numbers of people killed and maimed. Tell that to the victims of the Kahtaniya or Karrada bombings. Make your excuses.

It may be a small minority who participate in violence, but the small minority is remarkably well able to keep it going. I wonder how that is?

The violence in Chicago, or Mexico, or wherever is not religiously motivated.

To summarise. I think the propensity of an individual to hate and be manipulated to violence can happen at school. The OP video shows this happening in Islamic Schools in the UK. We know that mosques have been used to facilitate and spread radicalisation, such as teaching people that it’s OK to kill, rape and harm. I think if it is happening in UK schools and mosques, then it’s probably more common in Muslim countries where there are no cotrols. The fact that violence and brutality is a feature of the Muslim world at the moment, is probably a clue as to the “education” children are getting. Teach hate and you get people who hate.

I concede that in Islam such hate teachings are un-Islamic. However, there are clearly people who by action and deed would disagree. Even religious scholars, leaders and courts are happy to execute people for crimes that are trivial in a civilised society, like apostasy. You don’t get the Pope, or the Archbishop of Canterbury passing a fatwās against author or human rights activists, or demanding blasphemers and executed.

a reply to: paraphi

So, the violence and brutality being meted out across the Middle East, North and West and East Africa has sod-all to do with religion. Nothing to do with the age-old conflict between Sunnis and Shias going back to c. 630AD, or the hatred of Sunnis and Yazidis, or anything like that.

If it were really about religion, then explain the 1980-1988 war between Iran & Iraq. Iran is a Persian majority, Shiite majority country. Iraq is a Shiite majority, Arab majority country. The Shiite-Arab majority country was led by Saddam, a Sunni Arab. And not only did the Shiite-Arab majority Iraqis follow the Sunni Arab Saddam against the Shiite-Persian Iranians, but the Sunni Arab Saddam then massacred the Sunni-majority Kurdish people. And the Wahhabi-led GCC backed the Sunni-Arab Saddam and his Shiite-Arab majority country against Iran, only to back the Christian-majority US & West against that same Saddam after he invaded the diverse country Kuwait.

Explain the current Syrian war. The Alawite-Shiite Arab leader Assad leads a Sunni Arab majority nation. The Wahhabi mercenaries are attacking everyone in Syria, including the Sunni majority Kurds, the Sunni majority Syrian population, and of course, the Shiites. The Arab Shiites in Lebanon and the Persian Shiites in Iran both helped the Sunni-majority Syrians against the Wahhabis mercs/"rebels". But the Sunni-majority Turks are waging war against the Sunni-majority Kurds, while covertly working with the Wahhabis. We could do the same breakdown for all of these wars.

Several times in this thread I've pointed out that from a religious standpoint, it's one sect that's causing the vast majority of the conflicts here. And not only is that sect tiny, but it's also incredibly wealthy and has the full economic & military support of the West. However, that sect is really more about economics and geo-political power than anything, using their own twisted religious interpretations to sway disgruntled Muslims to fight their wars for them. You don't really think the war in Syria is about religion, do you? Just like w/the Iran nuclear "crisis", that same sect wanted sanctions and attacks against Iran because it would allow that sect to take a larger share of the energy market from its rivals in Iran.

But no matter how many times we speak about it, you guys still ignore it because it doesn't fit your narrow minded views of the situation. You fell for the Wahhabi propaganda that this was actually about the Shiite/Sunni divide, even though Shiites and Sunnis co-mingle, co-marry, and have lived together there for more than a millennium. I even pointed out 2 recent glaring examples of when Shiites and Sunnis have banded together to fight that sect, and could've pointed out how the same thing is going on in Yemen right now. But obviously it won't matter.

Tell that to the huge numbers of people killed and maimed. Tell that to the victims of the Kahtaniya or Karrada bombings. Make your excuses.

If that's the case, then the hundreds of thousands of Muslims killed by the Christian majority West during the War on terror is also religiously fueled. your hypocrisy knows no bounds! And that would also mean that the killings in Chicago, the American "heartland", and from the Mexican cartels are also because of Christianity. After all, the vast majority of African Americans, conservative Americans, and Mexicans are Christians. But once again, you act like only Christians can kill and fight others because of things like nationalism, money, fear, bigotry, lies/propaganda, nationalism, etc. For Muslims, it somehow has to be about religion.

Oh, and I'm not making excuses for anyone. I'm pointing out that the situation is far more complex than narrow minded people like to assume. And I'm pointing out that many Muslims are exactly like the followers from other religions: meaning that they have the same potential vices & flaws and willingly ignore their own Scriptures for worldly impulses & desires.

To summarise. I think the propensity of an individual to hate and be manipulated to violence can happen at school. The OP video shows this happening in Islamic Schools in the UK. We know that mosques have been used to facilitate and spread radicalisation, such as teaching people that it’s OK to kill, rape and harm. I think if it is happening in UK schools and mosques, then it's probably more common in Muslim countries where there are no controls. The fact that violence and brutality is a feature of the Muslim world at the moment, is probably a clue as to the “education” children are getting. Teach hate and you get people who hate.

In other words, you're simply guessing? But if you and nobody else will distinguish which denomination, school of thought, or regional interpretation these "teachings" are from, how can you claim it's common in other areas!? The whole point in me constantly pointing this part out is because each denomination, school of thought, and regional interpretation has different teachings! If nobody's willing or able to show who this group is from, then how can there be any serious discussion of them?

Here in the South, there's a denomination of Christians called snake handlers. They handle venomous snakes during their congregations, basically saying that it's their strong faith that keeps them from getting bitten. Of course, there are times when their members get bitten and have died from it, like here:

And here's a Christian church that had its congregation each grass to prove they are the Lord's cattle:
There are at least 2 Christian denominations that stereotypically reject the use of electricity and photography (Amish & Mennonites). And of course, we can also link to the many Christian preachers who preach against LGBT people, like these 2 who had the following to say about the Orlando massacre:

Do these Christians and their churches represent the whole of Christianity? Do they even represent a large segment of Christianity? No! Anyone with even the slightest knowledge of the overall religion knows that there are a massive number of different denominations and interpretations in Christianity, so it's better to judge each group by its own creed. But Islam doesn't get that same courtesy, even though it's almost as large and diverse as Christianity is.

ETA: Oh and any sex outside of marriage is strongly forbidden in the Qur'an. In fact, the penalty is 100 lashes O_O (Surah 24, Ayat 2). So once again, is this a case of people doing that in the name of Islam or in spite of Islam's actual teachings? Since it's obviously against Islam's actual teachings, then how is Islam to blame for that?

a reply to: AceWombat04

If we in Europe act against this hateful indoctrination, it is seen as an attack against islam, hence we need coöperation from islamic pundits in higher positions.

The question is not what 'i' want to see done, i'm just an ordinary man in the street.
The question is, does the islamic community allow their religion to be put to shame.

a reply to: paraphi

Ah, ha. A forensic examination of the words I use. No, I am not guessing, as the evidence is all around. The OP video that shows adults telling children to hate and distrust Kaffirs in UK schools is incontrovertible.

The number, frequency and destructiveness of suicide, truck and car bombs in Shia, Sunni and Yazidi markets and communities, planted by the other denomination go well beyond a turf war. Suicide bombers don't do it for the money, they do it because someone has told them it's OK.

You can post videos of Yankee preachers with a rattlesnakes, and all sorts of videos that show preachers saying things about gays and all that, but that is not mainstream. It does not translate into stonings, beheadings, suicide bombings and other acts of religiously motivated barbarity. You can stop being a Christian tomorrow and nothing changes, or be gay in France, but in Islam you will face the death penalty in some Muslim countries for both “offenses”. I am sure you don’t believe that people who leave Islam should be killed, do you?

Look, I am sure you are a nice guy, but sadly the evidence is that there are a lot of people who use your religion as an excuse to do barbaric acts, and they do so with the firm belief they are being religious. This belief starts in the class-room. This may also happen in Hindu, or Christian faiths, but not to the extent it’s been going on across the Muslim world.

If you teach a child to hate, then he will hate. He will hate even more if he "knows" that behaviour is supported by God. That is what the OP is about. It’s about Islamic schools in the UK teaching hate.

Prove me that I am wrong. Show some good things that Islam brings, rather than trying to bombard with YouTube vids. Show me the women treated well, or the girls having access to education, or the civilised penal code. Show me the welcome given to an ex-Muslim, or the understanding of an inter-faith/sect marriage.

a reply to: earthling42

I can't speak to the situation in Europe (which I agree is very troubling from many different angles,) as my post was about those in the U.S. advocating surveilance of mosques on the basis of videos like these... hence my repeated references to the constitutionality of such a policy.

As for putting it to shame... The religion as a whole? Or just those who carry out these atrocities, and express such views? Numerous Muslim leaders and average Muslims in Europe and throughout the West (and beyond, but since we're talking about Europe and the U.S. I'll stick to the West) have called the sect and the actions associated therewith "vile," "shameful," "horrible," etc. and routinely teach the members of their faith that this is not what Islam should be.

I will agree with you that in Europe though, more needs to be done to help immigrants assimilate to the laws and customs of their host countries, and where needed, law enforcement needs to be stricter and more proactive. But I still don't agree with condemning or shaming the whole of a religion - any religion - for the actions of some part of it. We can agree to disagree about that if you like. I will respect your opinion.

Peace.

I didn't think it could be true that they could be so deceptive in their beliefs, but, then I found many many other videos similar to the OP, such as this one about this european "heroic" muslim media celebrity: