Who are the Knights of Saint Andrew?

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

I was referring to the 1990s statement you made.

a reply to: MotherMayEye

The group mentioned in the Original Post is an American group dating to 1993.

On that day in October 1993, there were over sixty Guthrie Scottish Rite members ready to join the Knights.  When they were told that they would have to work and that only Black Caps could join, half of them left the room and the Tulsa Chapter initiated 32 Charter members of the Guthrie Knights of St. Andrew. Source

What you are quoting is about the actual 29th Degree which is a homage to the original order.

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

Okay, that was just confusing to me.

a reply to: MotherMayEye

There is a group called the Knights of Saint Andrew, they were formed in 1993. There is the 29th Degree in the Scottish Rite, which is about the Knights of St. Andrew (the real ones, not the 1993 group).

Neither of those proves a link to the Knights Templars.

a reply to: AMPTAH

I heard a quote a while ago;" The best of Worlds ". I believe you can get a hold of almost every secret freemasonry has, but i also believe it requires a mentor and a lot of time on your part.

I dont believe an ordinary human can ever understand the deepest secrets cause it makes no sense,and yet it does.

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: MotherMayEye
Wait...there is a publication from 1884 that says this:

As I said earlier in the thread, it was popular in the 1800's to link yourself to these chivalric orders. There is zero evidence the Templars are related to Masonry.

I don't see how you could honestly make such a statement.

I'd understand if you said "you have seen no evidence" to link Templars to Masonry.

But, the desire to claim no such link exists, which is obviously beyond your capability to know, just shows you're blovaiting, whatever that means

a reply to: AMPTAH
Well, the Catholic Church has only banned Catholics from joining Freemasonry, not all Christians.

What is taught in our rituals is not contradictory to Christ and His teachings. Freemasonry is not a religion, we're a private fraternal group, but that doesn't make us the antithesis of Christ.

a reply to: MotherMayEye
Well, modern historians have used historical fact to debunk many of these kind of myths. Check out "Compasses and the Cross" by Stephen Dafoe: www.freemasons-freemasonry.com... or www.freemasons-freemasonry.com...

originally posted by: AMPTAH
But, the desire to claim no such link exists, which is obviously beyond your capability to know...

Then post the evidence.

And I noticed your crybaby bull*** about Masons not answering questions went ironically unanswered. Guess you really did not want to know what it is you wanted to know, just like when I asked you in the other thread when you were whining about jewels.

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: AMPTAH
But, the desire to claim no such link exists, which is obviously beyond your capability to know...

Then post the evidence.

I already posted the evidence. But, you could not see it. What more can I do?

a reply to: AMPTAH
You should realize that just because it's in a book doesn't make it right. Timely as it is, tomorrow (the 12th) is the 131st anniversary of Quatuor Coronati Lodge #2076 in England which started because there was too much historical fiction being published and accepted as true, and the nine founders wished to establish more evidence-based Masonic research rather than the imaginative-based that was predominant at the time.

originally posted by: MotherMayEye

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: OpSpec
From what I gather, they are an elite group and the successors of the Knights Templar (apparently after the Knights Templar were disbanded, some fled to Scotland and became the Knights of Saint Andrew).

No Masonic organization is directly traceable to the Knights Templar.

They only date from the 1990's as well.

Wait...there is a publication from 1884 that says this:

Link

I found this to be pretty interesting:
youtu.be...

originally posted by: KSigMason
a reply to: AMPTAH
You should realize that just because it's in a book doesn't make it right.

Sure, men have imagination. So, what comes out can be anything.

When I talk about evidence, I mean hard evidence that can't be disputed.

Take a look at a Church. Not only is it above the ground, with glorious windows to let in the light, but look at the seating arrangement inside the Church. Neat rows of benches facing the altar.

Nobody would confuse a Church with a Freemason Lodge. They couldn't be any more different.

But, now take a look at a Mithraeum. Hidden in the dark. Blocking out the light. Take a look at the seating arrangement, and tell me if you can be certain that's not a just another Freemason Lodge room.

It's not that the evidence of these things aren't plain to see. The question is just, how many points of reference connecting two things are necessary, before one concludes the coincidences are not purely accidencal, but imply a causal connection?

Some will say there's no connection between water and ice. Other's disagree, and claim they are just two forms of the same thing. People can argue endlessly about this. One pointing to the differences, the other pointing to the similarities.

In the case of Freemasonry, however, there are some pretty unique landmarks that characterize the order. And these things are not spread far and wide, and found as common elements everywhere. So, one can easily identify the links.

That is, if anyone cares to actually look.

Some people don't want to know. So, they don't look. Instead, they argue from what is in their head already. Which is nothing at all.

a reply to: AMPTAH
Well, as for the Templar continuation myths, there is no hard evidence.

Take a look at a Church. Not only is it above the ground, with glorious windows to let in the light, but look at the seating arrangement inside the Church. Neat rows of benches facing the altar.

All Lodges are above ground as well, I'm sure there are some exceptions. Our Lodges are well lit and our seating arrangement is neat, if you are meaning organized.

Nobody would confuse a Church with a Freemason Lodge. They couldn't be any more different.

Okay. However, such things are superficial. In content, they are different. Christianity is a religion/faith while Freemasonry is a philosophical science. However, being different from each other doesn't make them incompatible.

But, now take a look at a Mithraeum. Hidden in the dark. Blocking out the light. Take a look at the seating arrangement, and tell me if you can be certain that's not a just another Freemason Lodge room.

Actually they are completely different. You would know that if you've ever sat in a Lodge. The seating configurations are completely different, and according to you, that makes all of the difference. Lodges are also well lit and, as I said before, Lodges are not underground nor are they all windowless. Here are two well known Masonic buildings that have natural lighting in them.

House of the Temple: scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net...

Corinth Room, Grand Lodge of PA: scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net...

I could dig for more, but there are plenty of Lodges that I've been to that have windows and some have skylights. I can think of three Lodges within in an hour of where I live that have windows in their Lodge rooms.

Mithraea (Mithraeum is plural and you used it wrong) were typically 10-12m long and 4-6m wide with raised benches called klinai on the sides where the initiates would eat their meals with a narrow aisle in between. From this commonly used floor plan seen with existing mithraea, each one could only hold 30-40 individuals. If the mithraea was beneath a building, there would be holes in the ceiling to allow light in. A mithraea served as an area for initiation and where the ritualistic meals were held. Meals were particularly important to the initiates of the Mithraic Mysteries as it pertained to Mithras and the killing of the bull. The Catholic Encyclopedia states that a sacred fire was kept burning in the mithraea. Mithraea were decorated with a variety of iconography. In every mithraea there was a representation of Mithras killing a bull, often referred to as the "tauroctony." In some mithraeum, there are still surviving images of each degree. Many mithraea were later converted to crypts and tombs after the rise of Christianity.

It's not that the evidence of these things aren't plain to see.

What you've presented is conjecture not evidence.

The question is just, how many points of reference connecting two things are necessary, before one concludes the coincidences are not purely accidencal, but imply a causal connection?

Remember, correlation is not causation.

Some will say there's no connection between water and ice. Other's disagree, and claim they are just two forms of the same thing.

Apples and oranges. No rational person is going to argue that water and ice are just two different states of H2O; it's the same molecule. Did you ever take a chemistry class?

In the case of Freemasonry, however, there are some pretty unique landmarks that characterize the order. And these things are not spread far and wide, and found as common elements everywhere. So, one can easily identify the links.

Using your argument one could say that since humans are bipedal mammals, all bipedal mammals are human. With you argument, you would be saying that since Buddhists use the swastika cross they are equatable to the Nazis.

Both, Freemasonry and the Mithraic Mysteries are/were fraternal organizations, but that doesn't make them one and the same, or that one led into the other.

That is, if anyone cares to actually look.

Some people don't want to know. So, they don't look. Instead, they argue from what is in their head already. Which is nothing at all.

I'm actually writing an article about the Mithraic Mysteries and the final part is a comparison between the two. One of the articles that I'm currently reading on the subject states the following:

There are similarities between our Fraternity and the old Mystery Cults, but most of them are of a superficial character, and have to do with externals of rite or organization, and not with inward content.

originally posted by: KSigMason
a reply to: AMPTAH
Well, as for the Templar continuation myths, there is no hard evidence.

Well, while you're following the trail, you must have noticed that the Cult of Mithras was primarily dominant among the Roman soldiers. Something about Mitras appealed to the fighting man. It possessed an inner teaching that suited his outward occupation. Well Mitras vanished, but up poped the Knignts Templars, another holy fighting team, with strange rituals and dark secrets. The Templars were as much of an "elite fighting force" as the old "Elite Roman Soldiers." Of course, since none of these "secret orders" wrote anything down, we have only the symbols of their craft to pick out our points of reference to establish evidence of connections. But, note also, that while modern historians interpret Mitras as a "God". That's just the modern way of interpreting things. In fact, "Mitras" meant "Contract", there was no god involved. This was a "contract" with your special friends whome you entered contract with, by taking an "oath", and the word Mitras itself became "Mates" to describe those special friends. Today, Freemasonry calls them "brothers", and take the same "oaths" to come to the aid of their "brothers" (mates), etc..the formulas are all the same. So, keep digging, you'll see all the connections. You can still call them all coincidences if you like. But, you'll know.

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

And I noticed your crybaby bull*** about Masons not answering questions went ironically unanswered..

Sorry, I completely missed this "plane 2" comment.

I guess I'm reading too fast.

But, just so you know. Plane 1 is the physical plane. Plane 2 is the astral plane. Plane 3 is the mental plane.

Freemasons typically operate on Plane 2. The Illuminati typically operate on Plane 3.

The astral plane is where all the "emotional" content is stored, dealt with, and manipulated. So, when you see any comment making appeals to emotion, that's a Plane 2 comment. Plane 2 comments work well with other Plane 2 inhabitants and also with Plane 1 folks. But, there's no meaning in them. Their objective is to stir up emotions. But, when an individual has risen above the astral plane, those comments tend to miss their mark.

Plane 3 works better for me.

a reply to: AMPTAH
Here is a paragraph from Part 2:

The Cult of Mithras was one of several mystery cults practiced within the Roman Empire. Worshipers of the Cult of Mithras, or sometimes known as the Mithraic Mysteries, were all male and particularly popular among soldiers. It is not surprising to see why the Cult of Mithras was popular among soldiers. The religion of ancient Rome was pragmatic (practical) and more contractual than spiritual while mystery cults concerned themselves with establishing a personal relationship with a particular deity and on one's salvation. The Cult of Mithras, with its warlike imagery and promise of salvation, must have been a natural fit with an occupation where soldiers were sent to the far ends of the empire far from home and where death was almost a certainty. Initiates referred to themselves as "syndexioi" which means "united by the handshake." It was composed of 7 grades (or degrees) of initiation: Raven, Bride, Soldier, Lion, Persian, Sun Runner, and Father. The initiations and meetings often included meals which took place in their temples called "mithraeum." The Cult of Mithras was practiced in the Roman Empire from the 1st century AD to the 4th century AD.

The Knights Templar "popped up" centuries after the Mithraic Mysteries disappeared into obscurity. Mithraism was not a "holy fighting team" like the Knights Templar could be described as. While it was popular among soldiers, you shouldn't assume that all Roman soldiers were members of the Mithraic Mysteries.

But, note also, that while modern historians interpret Mitras as a "God". That's just the modern way of interpreting things. In fact, "Mitras" meant "Contract", there was no god involved. This was a "contract" with your special friends whome you entered contract with, by taking an "oath", and the word Mitras itself became "Mates" to describe those special friends.

The Mithraic Mysteries centers on the worship of the Proto-Indian, Persian god Mithras. Some sources believe that he was the son of Ormuzd, a god of light, and Anahita, a virgin fertility goddess. Mithras himself was a god over contracts ("contract" being the etymological root of his name). He's also said to be the protector over the harvest, cattle, and water. Mithras is said to have been born out of a rock on the Winter Solstice. Some legends of the birth of Mithras state that the rock from which he came from contained both light and fire, making him a god of light and fire; although this may have been later changes to keep in sync with the newer adaptations of this god. Myth states that he was born wearing a Phrygian cap holding a dagger and a torch of light; Phrygia was a kingdom in what is modern Turkey, around the Sakarya River. Mithras is said to have remained celibate throughout his life and represented a system of ethics, temperance, and self-control. The first mention of Mithras is in the Vedic (Hindu) Scriptures dating back to around 1400 BC, and over the years spread to Persia where the worship of Mithras spread. The Magus Zarathustra (or Zoroaster) reformed the Persian religion (now referred to as Zoroastrianism) which placed Mithras as a lesser deity beneath Ahura Mazda. According to the Avesta, Ahura Mazda created Mithras in order to guarantee the authority of contracts and promises. Some believe that it is the association with the Babylonian god Shamash, their god of justice and a sun god, that Mithras was later seen as a sun god. With the conquest of Persia by Alexander the Great, Persian religions spread into the Hellenistic world.

Today, Freemasonry calls them "brothers", and take the same "oaths" to come to the aid of their "brothers" (mates), etc..the formulas are all the same. So, keep digging, you'll see all the connections. You can still call them all coincidences if you like. But, you'll know.

Again, these are superficial things and, again, correlation is not causation.

a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

nvm

originally posted by: AMPTAH
I already posted the evidence. But, you could not see it. What more can I do?

What? The thing about windows? That is not evidence, that is conjecture.

So when you ask 'what more can I do' the answer is 'a lot'.

originally posted by: AMPTAH
Sorry, I completely missed this "plane 2" comment.

Guess you have no legitimate question and all your whining was just whining.

a reply to: AMPTAH

Take a look at the seating arrangement, and tell me if you can be certain that's not a just another Freemason Lodge room.

The same question could be asked about even an abstract site like DebbieWins.com.

EG the boats anchored at the bow free to point up into the wind.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

If it were as easy as reading the label on water filters there would be no question.