God creates us and loves us but if you're gay you go to hell?

originally posted by: Abysha

originally posted by: markosity1973

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: TAECOLE7
a reply to: auto3000

All in all I would "like" to believe that God does love and create us and IS understanding and forgiving. The bible says being homosexual is an abomination. So basically it's a sin. Does it say it's not forgivable is all I want to know?

Yes homosexuality is forgivable, no question
But like all sin, it must be repented of and the sinner turn away from it
Meaning their desire is to stop sinning, to actively work at breaking the chains of the sin they are bonded to
God does love His creation, Gods desire is to forgive

Homosexuality is no more a sin than pre marital sex, adultery or other listed sins in the bible.

I have met non practicing homosexuals in the church, I have also met celibate non married non homosexuals.
Go figure. It's a choice

This is the double jeopardy line of thinking that really gets the gay community a little upset.

Not attacking you personally here, so please bear that in mind, but.....

A) We have no choice in our sexuality.

Therefore

B) According to 'the rules' our only option is to live a life of celibacy

Because

C) Gay relationships are considered inferior, immoral and invalid.

It is classic religious hypocrisy - we're left in a position where we are damned if we do - literally to hell apparently. And we are damned if we don't - to a life of loneliness and void of intimacy.

Why should living our lives the way we were created be a sin in the first place? The bible says nothing beyond "God is a homophobe'

Also, it's a sin to remarry as long as your ex-spouse is alive. So people on their second marriages are living in sin every single day they are married. They are every bit as "sinful" as a sexually-active homosexual.

Thats JUST NOT true
Not true in any way shape or form.

I am going to guess you are not christian, heard it somewhere and just repeated it because it sounded good?

a reply to: Raggedyman

You could argue and you would be wrong. Like you are about divorce.

I present to you Mark:10

Jesus said to them, “Moses wrote this law for you because you are so hard to teach. 6 But in the beginning, at the time of creation, ‘God made them male and female,’ as the scripture says. 7 ‘And for this reason a man will leave his father and mother and unite with his wife,[a] 8 and the two will become one.’ So they are no longer two, but one. 9 No human being must separate, then, what God has joined together.” 10 When they went back into the house, the disciples asked Jesus about this matter. 11 He said to them, “A man who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against his wife. 12 In the same way, a woman who divorces her husband and marries another man commits adultery.”

www.biblegateway.com...

That is about as explicit as you can get.

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: Abysha

originally posted by: markosity1973

originally posted by: Raggedyman

originally posted by: TAECOLE7
a reply to: auto3000

All in all I would "like" to believe that God does love and create us and IS understanding and forgiving. The bible says being homosexual is an abomination. So basically it's a sin. Does it say it's not forgivable is all I want to know?

Yes homosexuality is forgivable, no question
But like all sin, it must be repented of and the sinner turn away from it
Meaning their desire is to stop sinning, to actively work at breaking the chains of the sin they are bonded to
God does love His creation, Gods desire is to forgive

Homosexuality is no more a sin than pre marital sex, adultery or other listed sins in the bible.

I have met non practicing homosexuals in the church, I have also met celibate non married non homosexuals.
Go figure. It's a choice

This is the double jeopardy line of thinking that really gets the gay community a little upset.

Not attacking you personally here, so please bear that in mind, but.....

A) We have no choice in our sexuality.

Therefore

B) According to 'the rules' our only option is to live a life of celibacy

Because

C) Gay relationships are considered inferior, immoral and invalid.

It is classic religious hypocrisy - we're left in a position where we are damned if we do - literally to hell apparently. And we are damned if we don't - to a life of loneliness and void of intimacy.

Why should living our lives the way we were created be a sin in the first place? The bible says nothing beyond "God is a homophobe'

Also, it's a sin to remarry as long as your ex-spouse is alive. So people on their second marriages are living in sin every single day they are married. They are every bit as "sinful" as a sexually-active homosexual.

Thats JUST NOT true
Not true in any way shape or form.

Matthew 5:31-32

anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, makes her the victim of adultery, and anyone who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

Mark 10:11 (words of Jesus himself):

He answered, “Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her. And if she divorces her husband and marries another man, she commits adultery.”

Luke 16:18

“Anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery, and the man who marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

I am going to guess you are not christian, heard it somewhere and just repeated it because it sounded good?

I am going to guess you are a Christian, didn't read your bible and just put words in your gods' mouths?

a reply to: Abysha

And here's a little nugget from the words of the Son of God himself

Mark 10:5

"Moses wrote this law for you because you are so hard to teach

Pretty strong insinuation right there that the book of law was written by Moses, not God. Just another contradiction the bible presents upon itself.

originally posted by: markosity1973
a reply to: Raggedyman

You could argue and you would be wrong. Like you are about divorce.

I present to you Mark:10

Jesus said to them, “Moses wrote this law for you because you are so hard to teach. 6 But in the beginning, at the time of creation, ‘God made them male and female,’ as the scripture says. 7 ‘And for this reason a man will leave his father and mother and unite with his wife,[a] 8 and the two will become one.’ So they are no longer two, but one. 9 No human being must separate, then, what God has joined together.” 10 When they went back into the house, the disciples asked Jesus about this matter. 11 He said to them, “A man who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against his wife. 12 In the same way, a woman who divorces her husband and marries another man commits adultery.”

www.biblegateway.com...

That is about as explicit as you can get.

Really, I am wrong, really

I take it you have read the bible? WHAT NO
I take it you have studied the subject? WHAT NO

You may need to put a little more effort in your reply than searching for a little confirmation bias in the bible, their are many other parts you have ignored...

Go read Abysha's reply, she has taken the first of many steps, clever girl, you could learn something Markosity

originally posted by: markosity1973
a reply to: Abysha

And here's a little nugget from the words of the Son of God himself

Mark 10:5

"Moses wrote this law for you because you are so hard to teach

Pretty strong insinuation right there that the book of law was written by Moses, not God. Just another contradiction the bible presents upon itself.

Wow, thats amazing, Moses wrote the law, gosh, shucks, just like it states in the bible
Well Golly Gee, its even written in there

Its always been Moses law, what are you talking about.
You are probably another non christian with your non christian pre conceived ideas trying to make a big thing out of your own errors in understanding the word
Its actually called the "MOSAIC LAW"
Pretty strong insinuation right there that the book of law was written by Moses, dontcha think Gomer
Just another little nugget for you Marks, no surprise there...



Termination of Marriage in the Mosaic Law

bible.org...

a reply to: Raggedyman

Tsk Tsk Tsk....

Attack the messenger and deny the message. Classic sloppy debating.

*Born and raised in a very conservative Catholic family that attended church AT least every Sunday, often 2 - 3 times a week.

And yes, I HAVE read the bible. Several times.

The other member did a great job and collected the rest of the verses that stand in unity with the point I was making. So what? It just further reinforces the point about divorce.

a reply to: markosity1973

Tisk tisk tisk

I dont care where you were born, go read the bible, dont quote stupidity at me

www.familylife.com...

Considering you are not a Greek or Hebrew scholar, were taught in a cult church, clearly have no capacity of scripture or the law.
Dont know the difference between the New and Old Testament and the laws in them, have no understanding of grace and believe Christians are under any laws shows your me you have no idea what you are talking about

Sorry, I dont see any point continuing on this.

Jesus taught two laws, Love God, love each other.
You are like a Pharisee, burdening people with religious laws and you arnt even religious, or you probably are but deny it.

The Lord Jesus insisted on the original intention of the Creator who willed that marriage be indissoluble.174 He abrogates the accommodations that had slipped into the old Law.17

Divorce is a grave offense against the natural law. It claims to break the contract, to which the spouses freely consented, to live with each other till death. Divorce does injury to the covenant of salvation, of which sacramental marriage is the sign. Contracting a new union, even if it is recognized by civil law, adds to the gravity of the rupture: the remarried spouse is then in a situation of public and permanent adultery: If a husband, separated from his wife, approaches another woman, he is an adulterer because he makes that woman commit adultery, and the woman who lives with him is an adulteress, because she has drawn another's husband to herself.178 2385 Divorce is immoral also because it introduces disorder into the family and into society. This disorder brings grave harm to the deserted spouse, to children traumatized by the separation of their parents and often torn between them, and because of its contagious effect which makes it truly a plague on society. 2386 It can happen that one of the spouses is the innocent victim of a divorce decreed by civil law; this spouse therefore has not contravened the moral law. There is a considerable difference between a spouse who has sincerely tried to be faithful to the sacrament of marriage and is unjustly abandoned, and one who through his own grave fault destroys a canonically valid marriage.179

www.vatican.va...

a reply to: markosity1973

Sorry Markosity, I am not a Catholic, are YOU???

Sorry Markosity, I am not Jewish, dont preach the 10 commandments or Mosaic law at me.

Sorry Markosity, I am not stupid either, I dont listen to atheists preaching what they think my religion, my beliefs, my christianity should be to me, at me
Jesus taught two laws, Love God, love each other.

I am always amazed that atheists who were once christians turn their back on christianity only to find out that they never understood christianity at all.
Just brain washed zombies.


How about you go back to the God is a homophobe thing again.
You know, the topic

a reply to: Raggedyman

Oh Lord, you are leaping all over the place like a cat on a hot tin roof.

Maybe take a break and come back when you are ready to start making sense again.

And yes, I am a Catholic. Baptised and confirmed in the Catholic tradition.

And YES I do disagree with the bible's teachings on homosexuality. And YES God is a homophobe because when you boil all the verses against homosexuality down, it comes down to 'because God does not like it'

And those Mosaic laws you speak of. Written by Moses, not God, like you said. Moses is not God. Every human is flawed and therefore it can be argued that the books written by men are flawed.

Why do you think Jesus admonished divorce?

Stop and think about it. The answer is in the Catechism that I quoted before. And if Jesus said that the teaching in the old law is wrong about divorce, what else is wrong in there?

After following this discussion, all I can say is how happy I am to have been raised in a more intellectually oriented family and was not indoctrinated into the belief of gods and myths. I had more than enough guilt and shame in my life already without worrying some invisible, all seeing omnipotent force was looking down from the sky in judgment threatening to smite me with eternal damnation. I think my parents may have even shielded me from the fire and brimstone condemnations of Christianity knowing I already had enough on my plate to deal with? I can only imagine how much more difficult my life would have been, or how short it would have been with religious parents.

I was taught to be a good person, the difference between right and wrong, to love and to treat others as I expected to be treated without the trappings of religion and have more or less learned on my own that what goes around, comes around. It's not that as a young person I didn't independently explore the concepts of a higher power but once I became aware that different religions had their own gods and beliefs, I rejected them all finding no particular merit in the superiority of one over the other. If there was one single all powerful god then all people of the earth would worship and believe in the same deity and there wouldn't be more than one. They don't though which to me, damages the credibility of all of them as anything more than stories.

Today, we look at the Greeks and the gods of Olympus and think how silly they were to believe in such things. This is how I feel about the religions of today and the likelihood of an angry god sending me to a hell is about on par with the chances of Zeus striking me down with a lightning bolt or turning me into a goat or something.

Besides all that, if god is so perfect and powerful and doesn't make mistakes etc., that's even harder to believe when she/he/they/it screwed up so bad with me and don't bother with the line that my life is some kind of karmic test or something. That's crap. (Maybe only those that know me here get what I'm talking about?)

With that being said, to each their own and no shade or disrespect toward whatever anyone else wants to believe. Just keep your holier than thou attitudes out of my face and shoved down my throat and your self righteous moralistic judgments off my body, out of my bedroom and out of our law.

Carry on, friends. I don't have much else to say about this and probably could have gone without saying this. It's just that I find the arguing that god said this and the bible says that to be somewhat ridiculous from my own perspective when I don't believe in any of it. Just sayin'.

a reply to: Padawan Raggedyman

originally posted by: Padawan Raggedyman
a reply to: markosity1973

Tisk tisk tisk

I dont care where you were born, go read the bible, dont quote stupidity at me

Padawan

Who said this in Matthew 5:17?

'Don't misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to accomplish their purpose'

Or another transaction:

'Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.'

Ill give you a clue. His father is a diabolical turd on crack.

Master Coomba

a reply to: coomba98

Again the bible (and Jesus in this case) contradicts it / himself.

Further proof that the book simply cannot be taken as word for word literally.

What Jesus actually means between the two opposing verses is that while he did not come to abolish the old law, he did point out the odd error here and there.

Which also explains the contentious Eunuch verse that Christians also get very angry at;

Matthew 19:12

For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Let the one who is able to receive this receive it.”

Eunuch was colloquial for effeminate male back in Jesus' day. Obviously I don't need to spell out how that relates to gay men.....

He even leaves a cryptic clue at the end to ensure that his meaning did not get lost through the aeons of time when he says 'Let the one who is able to receive this receive it'

But his main mission was to fulfill the prophecy of the Christ, which according to the biblical narrative he did.

originally posted by: coomba98
a reply to: Padawan Raggedyman

originally posted by: Padawan Raggedyman
a reply to: markosity1973

Tisk tisk tisk

I dont care where you were born, go read the bible, dont quote stupidity at me

Padawan

Who said this in Matthew 5:17?

'Don't misunderstand why I have come. I did not come to abolish the law of Moses or the writings of the prophets. No, I came to accomplish their purpose'

Or another transaction:

'Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.'

Ill give you a clue. His father is a diabolical turd on crack.

Master Coomba

NM

a reply to: [post=21766474]markosity1973don't understand the new covenant

That's the tip for you to study
The new covenant

a reply to: Freija

God does exist And Jesus is alive

a reply to: Hyperboles

well he owes me
so send him my way if you can

originally posted by: markosity1973
Eunuch was colloquial for effeminate male back in Jesus' day. Obviously I don't need to spell out how that relates to gay men.....

How about "castrated male"? I'm obviously no expert in religion or history but a quick Google search and a peruse of the Wikipedia page on the topic are both pretty big on the castrated thing. Certainly, those forced into this role are one thing but you can pretty much bet there were also trans folks in the mix. Just felt compelled to add that in for those that think being trans started with Christine Jorgensen or Caitlyn Jenner. Gay and trans people are just part of the natural order of things. Always have been. Always will be.

originally posted by: Hyperboles
God does exist And Jesus is alive

And hallelujah, brother if that works for you.



To those that must consider me some great unwashed heathen and my parents the spawn of Satan for raising me without religion, I present the following video - What Happens When You Raise Kids With No Religion?

Ironically, after my post above at 3:30 AM, I went to bed and watched YouTube videos on my phone as I usually do to fall asleep. This one came up in my recommend feed. It should be noted that I follow this channel. I think this guy is pretty sharp politically.

Caution: Language

a reply to: Raggedyman

whoa dude you are really off your game.