God creates us and loves us but if you're gay you go to hell?

originally posted by: TheConstruKctionofLight
a reply to: auto3000

Well if I say that noodles began in CHina and Tomatos came from South America I would have a valid argument with some ignorant Italians.
I am not going to do your research for you as you are probably close minded. THeres some great threads about on ATS. Search for them

PS last I looked philosophy and beginnings of religions had nothing to do with "genetic fallacy" or am I to assume that you are talking about some deeper level, you tell me!

facts don't explain the truth, facts only explains fact but the truth explains facts....in other words a common error is when men research facts and then use reasoning to attempt to explain the truth.

a reply to: auto3000

Well yeah?
The whole 'God loves us unconditionally' nonsense unraveled with the story of the great flood.
1. God creates humans
2. God gives humans free will
3. God loves said humans unconditionally
4. Humans don't use the granted free will the way God WANTED
5. He kills them all

I have a better understanding of love than this God.
That's why I'm better than the Christian God, I don't kill what I love, I love what I love.
That God is a total hypocrite (proved many times over by the bible) and should not be listened to
Make your own choices man, you are your own God.

originally posted by: TheConstruKctionofLight
a reply to: markosity1973

e. She calls it mother's instinct. She thought she had given birth to something wonderful like a saint. Imagine her disappointment when she found out that I am just plain old gay. Even she admits now that I am 43 that what she sensed was my sexuality.

Which is great, she came to accept that the difference she experienced in retrospect was you gayness not you saintliness. You didnt give actually time period's but you also should accept that, after you were born, she kept sensing something wonderful about you prior to you acknowledging your sexuality.

It took 20 years more or less for her to come around from crying and telling me the devil was trying to ruin my life at age 16 to finally giving in and admitting that this was no phase nor was I going to change.

The one thing I learned on my long journey to being at peace with myself; The poison psychology of religion.

For gay person to make a Christian (or Jew or Muslim for that fact) happy they themselves must be absolutely miserable. When you are at your lowest they revel in the 'poor yous' and 'I will pray for yous' along with 'You must be strong through this'

Try to be yourself and actually give happiness a shot and the religious fundamentals turn on you. They become angry, judgemental and cast you out.

So there is no worse fate for a gay person than to be born into a religious family. They are forced to choose between saving themself and alienating everyone they know and love or pleasing everyone in their world and living a life of self hate.

All religions have been twisted but do seem to share some common, albeit inconvenient, traits. Sexual immorality is a big one and present in most. The definition of "sin" is anything "less than perfect" and sex ties into this by "defiling" the body that was made in the image of God. Yes, there are huge problems with this. "Scripture" as we know it may not be the message originally intended and it most certainly not a complete guide to life, but it's all we've got so far. The unanswered questions and mystery force you to search and engage, which may be the real reward in the end.

I think it's important to realize that there IS an afterlife. I've seen enough in my years to know that there most definitely are "good and evil" forces at work in the universe and therefore scripture deserves some merit. God isn't fair anymore than you are with your children or animals and when you crossover and tell him "I don't believe in you", it may not matter to him one bit. You might be discarded anyway simply because you failed to meet the standard. It just might be more about obedience, submission and respecting something greater than yourself and understanding that it's not all about you. YOU are not the most important thing in the universe after all. It's the paradigm shift this generation doesn't seem to recognize or respect.

Then again, it might not be anything like this, but at least consider and respect different views...your eternal soul may depend on it. The most important realization religion offers is that there is something more than this little fleshly existence you're spending a few years in. The complexity and enormity of what we're trying to ponder is just beyond our understanding here on earth. Jesus said it best "Love each other" (except for the gays...lol)

originally posted by: GreenGunther
a reply to: auto3000

Well yeah?
The whole 'God loves us unconditionally' nonsense unraveled with the story of the great flood.
1. God creates humans
2. God gives humans free will
3. God loves said humans unconditionally
4. Humans don't use the granted free will the way God WANTED
5. He kills them all

I have a better understanding of love than this God.
That's why I'm better than the Christian God, I don't kill what I love, I love what I love.
That God is a total hypocrite (proved many times over by the bible) and should not be listened to

Make your own choices man, you are your own God.

Genesis 6:1-13

1 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,

2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

3 And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

7 And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.

9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

10 And Noah begat three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

11 The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.

12 And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth.

13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

In a nutshell, man had turned away from God and was irredeemable. It's been about 6000 years since the flood. Man is still turning away from God and putting himself above God and calling himself a god, which man can never be. I still can't believe that men would rather perish than be a part of God's kingdom. Who are we to question His actions? We were given life, given the breath of life (which is God's, not ours). It's because of God's grace that you and I exist.

The arrogance of men knows no bounds.

originally posted by: AMPTAH

originally posted by: TzarChasm
a reply to: AMPTAH

i am willing to bet that mount athos is one of the top ten boring cities/countries on earth for anyone who is not a dedicated monk. and your suggestion that a person be a boring reclusive hermit rather than gay is laughable,

Look at how much fun you're having reading and posting on ATS.

Yet, this is all mental activity.

It's not boring, is it?

Do you really think the monks, who spend all their time in contemplation, are doing something boring?

you cant tell me its fun if you have never been there. and there is a certain irony to sending a gay man to a city full of men to rehabilitate him. would sending you to the playboy mansion cure you of your appreciation for the female body? your education in homosexuality is sorely lacking if you actually think that would work.

originally posted by: auto3000
But WE have to forgive to go to heaven? God is in control of everything. He creates each one of us in His image, although some of us are born gay.

Is there any scientific proof that someone is "born gay"? i.e. missing chromosomes or something like that?
I have always felt it was due to their upbringing...at least from my experience on the people ive known a long time that ended up being gay.

originally posted by: TzarChasm
you cant tell me its fun if you have never been there.

How do you know where I have been. How do you even know I'm not posting from here?

and there is a certain irony to sending a gay man to a city full of men to rehabilitate him. would sending you to the playboy mansion cure you of your appreciation for the female body? your education in homosexuality is sorely lacking if you actually think that would work.

These are not men, as you think of men, these guys are more like eunuchs.

Are you saying that gay men are just attracted to any male body?

I heard quite differently from various people claiming to be gay, that being gay is something else entirely. Gay men "recognize" each other, because of that something different inside. It's not a body attraction, but an internal sense.
Gay men are not attracted to heterosexual men. So, a truly gay guy would not find a room full of heterosexual males that "chose" to be celibate, anything like a playboy mansion. However, some heterosexuals that "choose" to tryout the gay lifestyle, are really just thinking of the body interaction, and so these individuals might think of any male body as attractive. It's just confusion.

a reply to: AMPTAH

How do you know where I have been. How do you even know I'm not posting from here?

you live on mount athos? cool, good for you. doesnt mean its good for everyone. so you recommend depriving gay people of sexual stimulus because that is preferable to them enjoying a healthy and active sex life with a consenting partner. how would you feel if someone suggested you go to an island of vegans in order to overcome your meat eating disorder?

Sadly, there is an answer for all the "created in God's image" arguments. It's something called "vessels made for destruction". In other words, some things are made only to be destroyed. There's also the argument for being "chosen" whereas not everyone is destined to be "saved" and go to heaven. Not saying I agree with every interpretation or doctrine, but it's a thing.

originally posted by: AMPTAH

originally posted by: TzarChasm
you cant tell me its fun if you have never been there.

How do you know where I have been. How do you even know I'm not posting from here?

and there is a certain irony to sending a gay man to a city full of men to rehabilitate him. would sending you to the playboy mansion cure you of your appreciation for the female body? your education in homosexuality is sorely lacking if you actually think that would work.

These are not men, as you think of men, these guys are more like eunuchs.

Are you saying that gay men are just attracted to any male body?

I heard quite differently from various people claiming to be gay, that being gay is something else entirely. Gay men "recognize" each other, because of that something different inside. It's not a body attraction, but an internal sense.
Gay men are not attracted to heterosexual men. So, a truly gay guy would not find a room full of heterosexual males that "chose" to be celibate, anything like a playboy mansion. However, some heterosexuals that "choose" to tryout the gay lifestyle, are really just thinking of the body interaction, and so these individuals might think of any male body as attractive. It's just confusion.

Whoever told you those 'facts' about gay men is an idiot.

There might be some mild instinct but that's it. And as a heterosexual male who seems to be VERY attractive to gay men (I take it as a compliment of course)...you are dead wrong. Just wrong. Wrong wrong wrong wrong.

a reply to: AMPTAH

We know you have never been there - even a google search would have revealed to you that Mt Patmos is not an island.
Stop peddling rubbish

originally posted by: TheConstruKctionofLight
a reply to: AMPTAH

We know you have never been there - even a google search would have revealed to you that Mt Patmos is not an island.
Stop peddling rubbish

Oddly enough, i have a very good friend who went to Mt Athos ti stay with the monks for a weel, this was about 18 years ago.

But he is Greek. Not sure if they allow non greeks to go stay

Ive been to the other 2 "fingers"...i adore that part of Greece. Halkidiki was wonderful

a reply to: TheConstruKctionofLight

Dag Nam it, stop speaking sense! Thats got to be some sort of violation of the rules or something

a reply to: AMPTAH

So when did you discover this ability you have? You know the one to speak utter nonsense? It is as if you have been reading some bad 80s gay conversion pamphlets?

Sexuality is an odd thing. But there is no "gaydar". That is utter #e!

So lets clarify (mmm butter), where did you "hear" this propaganda from?

Oh and we can all tell you are not posting from there. Pull the other one, it has bells on.

a reply to: Zeta Reticuli

I have witnessed multiple babies grow to children and turn to be gay. They have no idea of sexuality, they just know they are attracted to the same sex and they don't even know it's wrong or different than anyone else until we tell them so. As they get older they feel they are trapped in the wrong body and some feel normal dressing as the opposite sex. Like it's who they truly are and they finally feel "right and normal" but we tell them they are not. What straight man one day wakes up and desides to live as a woman? ? Come on ppl! Why would a heterosexual man choose that? To be ridiculed? Judged? Cast away from family, coworkers, friends? And actually have physical desire to lay with another man? Really? ! Whether it's hormonal, (I believe it's vaccinations /population control) whatever the case it's born into them. Not the scorned woman that's beat and abused and now only dates women or the teeny boppers that kissed a girl and liked it, but the teen boy that comes in my job twice a week to shop wearing a dress and heels because it makes him feel normal. He's NOT mentally ill, he's a straight A honor roll student, his only problem is not being accepted and being judged. Why would he bring that on himself? And then get beat for it by a gang of school mates, and then commit suicide because of all the pain because he is miseriable and hurting deeply. He didn't choose that, he wasn't raised that way, he didn't want that. Wake up yall, this is very real and it's not going anywhere! Ignorance kills.

a reply to: AMPTAH

Physical attraction is simply that: physical. It's not based or limited by internal sexual preference. That's just asinine. Plenty of gay men find heterosexual men sexy and would love for them to be available in that way. I can appreciate you chiming in and I hope you are learning from all of this because that is the point. We are all capable of learning and becoming wiser everyday. We live and learn. And that's what this is. We all learn and share what we have learned and take something from others. Please try to not leave this thread with the same mind set you came here with. Please be open enough to except that you may be wrong or Atleast research it. This isn't a pissing match. It's not about knowing more than the other person, but being humble enough to recognize you may be wrong and to care enough to look into it. I am a straight married woman, I follow the KJV Bible. I am here to learn. And maybe something I'll say may be of value to someone else. Simple as that.

originally posted by: TAECOLE7
I have witnessed multiple babies grow to children and turn to be gay. They have no idea of sexuality, they just know they are attracted to the same sex and they don't even know it's wrong or different than anyone else until we tell them so.

Oh my! I've only been following this thread because I posted in it earlier and through reading, I can't decide if the blind belief in supernatural mythology expressed here and so passionately defended is amusing or just disturbing? You do you - that's fine, but wow.

At any rate, I want to address the quoted post specifically. TAECOLE7, although I appreciate the attitudes and positivity and the notion of being "born this way" you've shared, you are definitely mixed up on the differences between being gay and being transgender and between and gender identity and gender expression. It seems like you might be open to understanding more about these things and why I'm chiming back in. It won't hurt others to hear either.

As they get older they feel they are trapped in the wrong body and some feel normal dressing as the opposite sex. Like it's who they truly are and they finally feel "right and normal" but we tell them they are not.

Gay people do not feel "trapped in the wrong body". This "trapped" meme is from being trans, not gay. What drives people to "change sex" is a medically diagnosable condition as recognized by all major medical organizations throughout the world that is called gender dysphoria but it is only incidental to sexuality or who one is attracted to. I've known some very effeminate gay men in my day but none thought they were women. I've met some masculine men married to women that transition to become women. Being transgender is something independent from who you want to sleep with.

What straight man one day wakes up and desides to live as a woman? ? Come on ppl! Why would a heterosexual man choose that?

Or what gay man would? The desire to change gender has nothing to do with who you are attracted to. It is a matter of who you are inside to yourself and it isn't something you wake up with. And yes, people are indeed born with these feelings that often are manifested long before the development or expression of sexuality, in children for example, long before even foggiest notion of who it is they are attracted to enters the picture. Speaking as someone that was indeed "born this way" and since this is the Religion, Faith and Theology forum, I can unequivocally say " this is how (insert whatever god) made me."

the teen boy that comes in my job twice a week to shop wearing a dress and heels because it makes him feel normal.

So about this... without knowing more, it seems like you might making a lot of assumptions here? Maybe it is a boy that likes girls things, likes to push boundaries and is a transtrender? That seems to be on par with being goth or emo these days? Maybe he doesn't think he is a he and could possibly be in early stages of transitioning to be a girl? Maybe he would rather be perceived as a she and feels herself to be? Maybe they're questioning or experimenting with how they express themselves? Whatever the case it or whatever 52 Tumblr genders this person might label themselves beyond the binary, it would still be presumptuous to assume who they might be attracted to or that they are gay or what gender they are.

At least you've been unconcerned one way or the other about who or what they are which is something a whole lot of people could take example from. I commend you for that but find your incomplete or mixed up understanding of these things somewhat cringy but know that for those that will listen, this can be a great place to learn more and be better informed.

Again, you've said some good things that need to be said about LBGT people and your efforts are admirable and appreciated. You sound like you are open-minded to learning so I hope you don't mind my bringing these things to your attention? My inbox is open if you'd like to discuss further.

To tie this back into the religious aspect and going to hell for being gay or trans, my only question is will there be snacks and what time are cocktails being served? I'm sure I'll see some of those that lack love and compassion in their hearts because of a book towards their fellow human beings down there and we can have a party!

originally posted by: Freija

To tie this back into the religious aspect and going to hell for being gay or trans, my only question is will there be snacks and what time are cocktails being served? I'm sure I'll see some of those that lack love and compassion in their hearts because of a book towards their fellow human beings down there and we can have a party!

What kind of arsehole psychopathic creator would make people for the express purpose of throwing them away anyway?

That is what those who agree with the thread title are basically arguing.

You and I are both living testament that nature is not black and white Heterosexual, male / female. We are not sinners for being who we are. We have hearts, we have soul and we dream and aspire like all other humans do.

I said earlier in the thread that I respect and hold in high esteem those who like to 'live right'

But

It's time those same people showed us some respect and friendship in return.

After all, get to know us and we can be really great friends.

originally posted by: TheConstruKctionofLight
a reply to: auto3000

So then if you are sincere go back to reading your bible and dont expect "truth" from other peoples experience. Every person understands god in their own way. Only the lazy rely on the "revealed word" of a preacher.

are you referring to me or the individuals that expressed their feelings to me and I posted it?