The Word was with God, and the Word was A god

a reply to: TerriblePhoenix

Which would make Chester John's '' lone preserved word of God '' KJV and by theology SALVATION, unavailable to anyone who doesn't speak English.

Not really, you are just exagerating. 1) You would be surprised at the amount of the world wo do understand and speak English today (here is a link to wikipedia that shows the stats tat chow you in error) en.wikipedia.org... 2) The Gospel message is pretty much in all the versions of the Bible in any language despite the version it is taken from. 3) It is an excuse to even suggest that the English cannot be understood. There are 97 foreign language Bible available today were taken from the King James text. One of them being Chinese where only 2% percent of their citizens speak English.

the attitude you show is that I said that only the gospel can be found in the AV and I have never said that. All I have advocated is that the AV is the preserved word of God in English because God's word says he will do so. Any foreign language that used the AV as the source for their translations are the best translation for that country.

Have any of you found what the context and the purpose of the writing of the book of Hebrews yet? I was mistaken it is in the first four Chapters.

Paul expansions on the teachings of Jesus so that you and I can today model our lives after Jesus, but the other apostles, Paul and others we are told to mark them and follow them as they follow Christ Jesus. You do know that any good Christian would not hold an unbeliever to a standard that is not found in the Bible.

Further I have never said God hates Homosexuals. I did say and hold to the fact that he has given them over to the Homosexual lifestyle because they fail to retain God in their hearts, minds and teachings as shown in Romans Chapter 1:18-32.

The gospel writings found in the Matthew through Acts 8 hold a specific Gospel for Israel as it pertains the the coming of the Messiah to usher in the Promise of the Kingdom to Israel upon which Jesus will sit on the throne forever. That particular portion was set aside as the promise to Israel has yet to be fulfilled. Jesus called Saul/Paul to expand on his teachings that don't pertain to the earthly kingdom, but yet he expands on the teachings for the Children of God both Gentile and Israel to live by until he returns that pertain to spiritual life in general while awaiting his return.

Paul did say follow me as I follow Christ. Nothing wrong with that as he was a living example for men of his day and for us today. You so far have not shown anything that emulates you are following Christ, especially in believing God's words as true.

The only existence of a Paulinian religion is in your and others depraved hearts because the basis of it is in the unbelief of God's word. Your teachings as well as those I have seen from you, Gnosisfaith, matrixsurvivor, Molocchino and others is nothing but pure unbelief in God's word being true, pure, inspired, preserved, infallible, without corruption, whole and complete. Such unbelief has led to may men dying the death. What I have seen by many who hold to your doctrine of men is that you have no changed spiritual life.

I will no longer participate in this thread as it is not advantageous for me to do so any longer. I gave my self a year to see if these things were so and found int he scriptures and I have found that most if not all the verses used were out of context, having opinions added to then as if they were part of God's words.

Ancient Manuscripts—How Are They Dated? Awake!—2008

IN 1844, Bible scholar Konstantin von Tischendorf visited St. Catherine’s monastery, located at the foot of Mount Sinai in Egypt. Combing through its libraries, he came upon some notable parchments. Being a student of paleography,* Tischendorf recognized the parchments as leaves from the Septuagint, a Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures, or “Old Testament.” “I had seen nothing that could be judged as of greater antiquity than these Sinaitic pages,” he wrote.

Forming part of what later became known as the Sinaitic Manuscript (Codex Sinaiticus), the parchments have been dated to the fourth century C.E. The Sinaitic is just one of thousands of ancient manuscripts of the Hebrew and Greek Scriptures that make up a truly vast reservoir for scholars to study.

*: “Paleography . . . is the study of ancient and medieval handwriting. It deals mainly with writing on perishable materials, such as papyrus, parchment, or paper.”—The World Book Encyclopedia.
...
n 1920 the John Rylands Library of Manchester, England, acquired a pile of papyruses newly unearthed in an ancient Egyptian rubbish heap. While examining the items, which included letters, receipts, and census documents, scholar Colin Roberts saw a fragment inscribed with text he recognized—a few verses from John chapter 18. It was the earliest Christian Greek text identified up to that time.

The fragment came to be known as the John Rylands Papyrus 457, internationally designated as P52. Penned in Greek uncials, it has been dated to the early second century—within just a few decades of the original writing of the Gospel of John! Significantly, the text agrees almost exactly with that found in much later manuscripts.

Ancient but Accurate!

In his book The Bible and Archæology, British textual critic Sir Frederic Kenyon wrote concerning the Christian Greek Scriptures: “Both the authenticity and the general integrity of the books of the New Testament may be regarded as finally established.” Similarly, regarding the integrity of the Hebrew Scriptures, scholar William H. Green stated: “It may be safely said that no other work of antiquity has been so accurately transmitted.”

Those observations call to mind the words of the apostle Peter: “All flesh is like grass, and all its glory is like a blossom of grass; the grass becomes withered, and the flower falls off, but the saying of Jehovah endures forever.”—1 Peter 1:24, 25.

Of course there are those who prefer to throw all the research and historical evidence regarding the reliability of the bible and its preservation as promised out of the window (or their consideration/minds) while applying their own preferred interpretation of bible verses such as the one quoted at the end above. For the teachers or religious leaders of these people it also became more of an emotional necessity* as more and more evidence emerged from these manuscripts and fragments that contradicts with their doctrines and theosophies and make it more obvious and clear what happened throughout the history of Christendom in terms of deliberate deception as opposed to inadvertent deception or insignificant errors or differences. *: In some cases it also shows their dishonesty when knowing better, or that they have been obscuring and/or scoffing+denigrating the evidence (encourage people to ignore or dismiss it, or consider it as ambiguous, not clear, not useful for figuring out the truth of the matter, Pontius Pilatus-style; see my commentary in the thread "The Greatest unanswered Question of all time, What is Truth?"). This is multi-generational and its best to look at the influence of entire organized religions or religious movements regarding this subject of doctrines in comparison with translational bias; this is all related to the behaviour of following human traditions and traditional teachings that I mentioned in my first comment in this thread.

Dating the Dead Sea Scroll of Isaiah

The first Dead Sea Scroll of the Bible book of Isaiah, discovered in 1947, was written on leather in a pre-Masoretic Hebrew script. It has been dated to the end of the second century B.C.E. How did scholars arrive at that date? They compared the writing with other Hebrew texts and inscriptions and assigned it a paleographic date between 125 B.C.E. and 100 B.C.E. Carbon-14 dating of the scroll provided additional evidence.

Amazingly, a comparison of the Dead Sea Scrolls with the Masoretic text, prepared many centuries later by scribes called Masoretes, shows no doctrinal change.* Many of the differences simply involve spelling and grammar. Also noteworthy, the Tetragrammaton—the four Hebrew consonants making up the divine name Jehovah—appears consistently in the Isaiah scroll.

*: The Masoretes, who were meticulous Jewish copyists, lived during the second half of the first millennium C.E.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: TerriblePhoenix

Which would make Chester John's '' lone preserved word of God '' KJV and by theology SALVATION, unavailable to anyone who doesn't speak English.

Not really, you are just exagerating. 1) You would be surprised at the amount of the world wo do understand and speak English today (here is a link to wikipedia that shows the stats tat chow you in error)

It is the people who do not speak English that are the issue Chester, not how many do, because using your rationale a person must speak English to read the preserved word of God AND understand an extinct dialect.

Not an exaggeration at all.

en.wikipedia.org... 2) The Gospel message is pretty much in all the versions of the Bible in any language despite the version it is taken from. 3) It is an excuse to even suggest that the English cannot be understood. There are 97 foreign language Bible available today were taken from the King James text. One of them being Chinese where only 2% percent of their citizens speak English.

the attitude you show is that I said that only the gospel can be found in the AV and I have never said that. All I have advocated is that the AV is the preserved word of God in English because God's word says he will do so. Any foreign language that used the AV as the source for their translations are the best translation for that country.

1611 was a long time ago and we have learned new things so I guarantee you that more than the KJV is used to translate Bibles even if it is used, if not it is a shame.

Plus the KJV didn't exist for 1541 years of Christianity and you said God promised to preserve it for all time.

And you said that the Septuagint and the BC DSS were corrupt because they disagree with the Babylonian Masoretic texts that changed "Sons of God" who even in Jewish tradition are 70 angels to watch the 70 nations which agrees with the Bible's 70 post flood nations...

To "sons of Israel" who are 12 in number.

The verse in question is Dt. 32 and involves the Most High appointing a ''Son" per nation, which is established in the Bible as being 70 and not 12.

You don't listen to reason or care about logic, what you believe is right and everyone who disagrees with you is wrong, you disregard facts in evidence and use "faith" as a copout whenever you are proven wrong.

The KJV is old and out of date, lacking in total accuracy regarding translation and is the only major Bible not to fix the lucifer/helel as pre fall Satan mess, everyone knows that Isaiah was talking to the King of Babylon and Jews do not have an angel named Helel or Lucifer who fell from heaven and became Satan, who has access to Heaven and God in Job and therefore can't be said to be fallen like the first Sons of God, the Watchers.

Sons of God IS the original and correct version and the only one that makes sense upon examination of the facts.

Have any of you found what the context and the purpose of the writing of the book of Hebrews yet? I was mistaken it is in the first four Chapters.

Paul expansions on the teachings of Jesus so that you and I can today model our lives after Jesus, but the other apostles, Paul and others we are told to mark them and follow them as they follow Christ Jesus. You do know that any good Christian would not hold an unbeliever to a standard that is not found in the Bible.

Further I have never said God hates Homosexuals. I did say and hold to the fact that he has given them over to the Homosexual lifestyle because they fail to retain God in their hearts, minds and teachings as shown in Romans Chapter 1:18-32.

I don't pay much attention when you are talking for God because you don't know God.

Who does declare homosexuality a sin worthy of death.

And Romans is a forgery, Paul a false prophet regardless so anything in his name is garbage.

The gospel writings found in the Matthew through Acts 8 hold a specific Gospel for Israel as it pertains the the coming of the Messiah to usher in the Promise of the Kingdom to Israel upon which Jesus will sit on the throne forever. That particular portion was set aside as the promise to Israel has yet to be fulfilled.

I noticed no quotes from scripture which means that you were taught this nonsense.

Jesus was special for Israel but the Romans persecuted the Nazarenes and Ebionites or "Jewish Christians"out of existence for keeping the Law and rejecting Paul and the deification of Jesus, believed he was human and the first mention of the Nazarenes was by Epiphanius who is the least honest author I have ever read besides maybe Jerome and his Peter and Philo stories.

Regardless the Ebionites can be historically connected to the Nazarenes and used the same scripture and lived in the same places, both were deemed Judaizers and heretics in the Panarion, one thing I do believe from Epiphanius.

So it was fulfilled and they were exterminated to eliminate any foreign claims to apostolic succession.

They were persecuted first by Rome and then by their fellow Jews who were also persecuted by the Romans and blamed them.

Jesus called Saul/Paul to expand on his teachings that don't pertain to the earthly kingdom, but yet he expands on the teachings for the Children of God both Gentile and Israel to live by until he returns that pertain to spiritual life in general while awaiting his return.

Paul did say follow me as I follow Christ. Nothing wrong with that as he was a living example for men of his day and for us today. You so far have not shown anything that emulates you are following Christ, especially in believing God's words as true.

The only existence of a Paulinian religion is in your and others depraved hearts because the basis of it is in the unbelief of God's word. Your teachings as well as those I have seen from you, Gnosisfaith, matrixsurvivor, Molocchino and others is nothing but pure unbelief in God's word being true, pure, inspired, preserved, infallible, without corruption, whole and complete. Such unbelief has led to may men dying the death. What I have seen by many who hold to your doctrine of men is that you have no changed spiritual life.

I will no longer participate in this thread as it is not advantageous for me to do so any longer. I gave my self a year to see if these things were so and found int he scriptures and I have found that most if not all the verses used were out of context, having opinions added to then as if they were part of God's words.

I noticed you don't ever have a kind or intelligent word to say and am wondering what is the point of responding to someone who is clearly securely indoctrinated.

I wonder by who though?

What kooky denomination do you belong to?

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: TerriblePhoenix

The Preserved words of God found in the only Holy Bible alone to have all the words of God in it will show you what you want to know. Ask Jesus to show you. That is if you have Jesus and the Holy Ghost abiding in you.

I only know Yehoshua the Messiah and the Holy Spirit and She tells me otherwise.

So does he. Blessed be he.

a reply to: whereislogic


I agree that the DSS are accurate.

But in most cases and in the case of Dt. 32, the most important discrepancy between the Masoretic and the Greek...

It says "Sons of God."

Something your little articles failed to address, supplying no evidence of anything.

Point being the Masoretic and Greek are not horribly different and the DSS usually agree with both.

When there is a difference it is usually the Septuagint that the Scrolls agree with and I have yet to see a true scholar say otherwise.

I own the extra Biblical DSS and the first Bible to use them in translation and a newer one that also does though has less foot notes.

The larger one always has a footnote to explain the difference between the texts when it happens and the Masoretic is always rendered to footnotes because it is outnumbered and too new.

a reply to: whereislogic



DSS fragments 4deutj and 4deutq both say sons of God.

HebrewBC is Elyon gave the nations their inheritance, when he seperated the sons of man, he set the boundaries according to the number of the Sons of God, for YHWH'S portion was his people, Jacob the lot of his inheritance.

4Qdeutj in English.

You can see the reason for the change to Israel by the Masorah in 1200BC roughly, as the fact that Yahweh is a Son of El whose portion of the inheritance of Elyon (Most High) was the nation of Israel.

Later it was "angels of God" in the Septuagint which reflects a shift towards pure monotheism versus polytheism and Yahweh as a god and not God or Most High.

The Masorah changed the word God to Israel and people insist, despite the lateness of the tradition and it making no sense as even Jewish tradition supports the 70 nations and 70 angels with Yahweh taking Israel and no matter how you argue Israel didn't have 70 sons at any point in time, the number of the sons of Israel at this point in time in the Bible is incalculable and went from 12 to as many as the stars in the sky.

The likelihood of this event happening when the sons of Israel numbered 70, when it happened at Babel before Jacob was born, is 0.

DSS LXX and Deuteronomy

a reply to: ChesterJohn

All I have advocated is that the AV is the preserved word of God in English because God's word says he will do so.

Classic.
There's even a graphic available illustrating it:

You could buy a poster of it and put it on your wall --- or heck, just c/p and use it as your avatar.

Anyway, I don't recall you answering my question. My son - he's seeking right now. About to turn 26. On Sunday we had lunch together - I took him "Living Buddha, Living Christ" by Thich Nhat Hanh. As of yesterday afternoon, he was halfway through it and said he was really enjoying it. It made a lot of sense to him, and most importantly is an EXCELLENT little volume that shows the syncretic mythologies as parallel and "like" - I highly recommend reading it.

Hahn is a very peaceful, encouraging, steady guy. An awesome teacher and guru. You could learn so much more if you'd only step outside your familiar room.... There's far, far more to learn in life than "Bible." Go out and live.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

Why do you think Israel had to wander in the wilderness for 40 years until those who did not believe the word of God died off.

Um...I don't think that. YOU think that, even though there is absolutely NO EVIDENCE that they did. None.

And you apparently think you know what everyone else thinks, too. What we like, what we hate, what we think about gays, what we think about your religion.

For example: I think (with confidence) that Jesus himself went to study with the Magi - in the East - to learn mysticism and Eastern thought - the Essenes were his people - and they were communistic, all sharing what they had - and also they were the most advanced in medicine and sophisticated in their understanding of the spiritual things.....he went to learn more from the Eastern wise men; that is where he was during his "lost years".

The Magi, who came from the East after he was born, were looking for the next Lama - same as ever. Jesus was the soul who came to help at that time. Others had come before him, and after. You just don't want to recognize that we are ALL FRACTALS OF THE DIVINE.

Some souls are more matured and experienced than others. My son, for example - has a keen interest now in learning more about the spiritual side of humanity. Not all people are interested. And not all people are clever enough to really understand. I taught my kids about Zen and Buddha and also Christianity and Wicca. A broad-based foundation. They were free to explore on their own.

Now they both have more syncretic and well-developed understanding than any person who has never paid heed to the Eastern masters.
You see, they both are extremely bright, sensitive, introspective, and curious. They were taught they could pursue whatever interested them.

Anyway - back to The Lost Years - evidence and primary sources: In India and Tibet there are scrolls and missives and other actual documentation talking about him. He was called Issa. Their documents are just as significant as ANY, my friend. He also went there after the "crucifixion" episode (which did not kill him). He lived among the people who understood him, who shared his knowledge and thinking (which most Westerners AND THE PEOPLE he preached to as a Rabbi just didn't understand, because they weren't educated, literate, or interested - and weren't brought up to think in the same way), who protected and honored him. He died in Kashmir at about 80.

**********************

So - WHERE DO YOU THINK HE WAS during his 'absence' as a teen/youth?

And lastly - I wonder how many other sacred texts you have read. How much comparative religion you are able to access just while sitting there at your computer.....
or does it terrify you to imagine that the others might be right, too?

See, the trick is finding where they ALL OVERLAP. That part, where they overlap, is the best synthesis of how man's spirituality has evolved.

“It is safer to approach God through the Holy Spirit
than through theology,” “It is safer to approach God through the Holy Spirit
than through theology,” [Nhat Hanh] writes. And yet he is a
theologian in the deepest sense: He speaks of God out
of his own living experience. And he speaks with
enthusiasm—with the voice of the divine Spirit in his
own heart. If we listen attentively, we will hear
traditional truths expressed in startling new ways. And
we might be surprised by Thây’s sure sense for
essentials. For Christian readers, it would be a great loss
to overlook this voice of insight and compassion,
insisting instead on academic niceties and theological
precision.

from Living Buddha Living Christ. "Thây" (teacher) is Nhat Hanh.

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs

“It is safer to approach God through the Holy Spirit
than through theology,” “It is safer to approach God through the Holy Spirit
than through theology,” [Nhat Hanh] writes. And yet he is a
theologian in the deepest sense: He speaks of God out
of his own living experience. And he speaks with
enthusiasm—with the voice of the divine Spirit in his
own heart. If we listen attentively, we will hear
traditional truths expressed in startling new ways. And
we might be surprised by Thây’s sure sense for
essentials. For Christian readers, it would be a great loss
to overlook this voice of insight and compassion,
insisting instead on academic niceties and theological
precision.

from Living Buddha Living Christ. "Thây" (teacher) is Nhat Hanh.

Hey! Definitely best to go to the "Comforter" the Holy Spirit.

She is Wisdom.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

Wigs instead of posting jpegs try testing the word of God. I don't believe the bible is the word of God because the bible says so. I believe it is the word of God because I have tested it and seen it is his preserved words with my own eyes and in my own life.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

I would not bother with ChesterJohn, the Christian who insults 20 people a day just for disagreeing with him.

You know Jesus and his Mother and Father, God and Spirit.


ChesterJohn who?

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: BuzzyWigs

Wigs instead of posting jpegs try testing the word of God. I don't believe the bible is the word of God because the bible says so. I believe it is the word of God because I have tested it and seen it is his preserved words with my own eyes and in my own life.

Describe this test and its results that you speak of.

You speak to God?

If not then you believe the Bible because the Bible SAYS it's God's word.

It also says Jesus is, God has many words, books, religions.

The spiritual elitist will be the first to meet the flames for speaking on behalf of God that he is a creedist who only accepts Pauline Christians.

a reply to: TerriblePhoenix

He's one of the more articulate ones, and sort of a good sport.....
so.

ChesterJohn the guy who's feeling insecure.
Still don't know what he would say to my son if they were forced to, say, sit next to one another on a train for 2 days.....
the only response I saw was some passage (which I didn't read).

a reply to: ChesterJohn

You don't seem to understand just words, so I provided a visual aid. Some people, like me, are very visual. We need to see images, colors, pictures, illustrations, representations. Some things are beyond words.

"God" is one of those things.

a reply to: ChesterJohn

I believe it is the word of God because I have tested it and seen it is his preserved words with my own eyes and in my own life.

Translation:
I read it in the book a bunch of times every day for 4000 days and every time I've looked at it, it still says the same thing! which is: "This is the word of God." Every time I have opened it at that page where it says that, IT STILL SAYS THAT!

It's a declarative statement. And you believe it says something true, when it's really just a declarative assemblage of words. But you personally have attributed the subject to the object in whatever way you fancy, and damned be anyone else's idea!

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: BuzzyWigs

Wigs instead of posting jpegs try testing the word of God.

Hah! Proverbs 26:12 comes to mind. Don't waste your short time on earth trying to reason with Buzzard.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

Isn't that so weird that YOU turned out to be the nasty one? You and Raggedyman. And here I thought we had an established dialogue going, Priest!

Now - please do explain to me how my offerings in this thread are "Buzzard" behavior.

Do they frighten you? They are the evidence that I have discovered.....
Your "evidence" I have long since discovered and set aside in order to explore and experience more advanced and thoughtful ideas and explanations of the answers to life's mysteries.





and - that was a REALLY NASTY thing to say. You have no idea what I'm going through right now, or why my son is of late investigating spirituality....all you know is that you want to insult me and dismiss my own journey. And here I've been sorta walking beside you guys having a conversation.

I really hate it when you get ugly.
We're all still stuck here together for now. I'm sick of trying to establish dialogue with you lot of cowards.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

No. I dont think its weird at all.

Your journey is your own. Sorry for whatever hardship you are enduring, but you aren't exactly as kind and patient at you expect me (and others) to be.

Dismissing other people's belief systems as "circular logic" and acting as if you are some kind of role model for us to marvel over is just nauseating.

Do your son a favor and treat him better than you treat Christians. Let him come to his own conclusions.

a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

Dismissing other people's belief systems as "circular logic" and acting as if you are some kind of role model for us to marvel over is just nauseating.

Do your son a favor and treat him better than you treat Christians. Let him come to his own conclusions.

Dude. OMFG are you kidding me???!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am supremely disappointed that you have not followed our long-term conversation here. You aren't even TRYING!!
I have taught my kids ----

Go back and read my posts in this thread.
Go and look at my thread history on this board - at my post history also, if you like.

You are being horrible right now.