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The Word was with God, and the Word was A god

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posted on Dec, 28 2016 @ 02:40 PM
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John 1:1

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Forever this has been the classic argument for Jesus being God in the flesh. Even such absurdities as Jesus is the Creator have been argued using it.

There is a huge problem with it though.

The first occurrence, "with God" uses the Greek term Hotheos which properly translates to ''the god" or when using a language with capital letters just "God."

Hotheos=God

The second occurrence, "was God" is improper as Tontheos is used and not Hotheos. Tontheos translates properly to "a god" and not "the god" as Hotheos does.

Tontheos= a god

"The Word was with God, and the Word was a god."

This is the correct translation of the Greek text of John. What does it mean?

Well it's not proof that Jesus is equal to God, the opposite as a matter of fact.

It reeks of polytheism or paganism, deifying a human which involves the word Tontheos if applied to a man or a lesser god than Hotheos, THE God.

And Neo-Platonism (Logos).

The funny thing, when Paul calls the devil "god" of the world he uses Hotheos.

Very Demiurge sounding theology if you ask me. Jesus is a god but Satan is the God, according to Paul regarding Satan and John regarding the Logos or Word that became flesh.

And the Father is Hotheos of Heaven.

Yeah, sounds very "Gnostic" to me.
edit on 28-12-2016 by SethTsaddik because: (no reason given)




posted on Dec, 28 2016 @ 02:50 PM
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a reply to: SethTsaddik

This is because Father is God, Holy Spirit/Mother is God, and Son is God. They all have the same divine essence, but are different personalities. So the Trinity consists of three Co-equal Gods. Technically it is polytheism, but it does not reflect the power hierarchy of classical polytheism. Christ is only in subjection to the Father by choice.
edit on 28-12-2016 by BELIEVERpriest because: typo



posted on Dec, 28 2016 @ 02:55 PM
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a reply to: SethTsaddik

So are you arguing with the Greek's whom interpret it very differently to you.

Jesus is part of God, the first and the last, spirit of God's spirit, True God of True God not A God but God, if it was A God then the Greek's would still be worshiping a pantheon and would never have argued about the meaning of the Trinity.

Gnostic tradition is NOT the true Christianity, I will demonstrate a little for you.

There is a church, it is the oldest intact and independant church in the world, that church is the Syriac Orthodoxy, half schism-ed about a century or so ago and the Syriac split with them joining the Catholic Church whose seperately formulated cannon of law's and belief's are almost identical to there own.
The Syriac orthodoxy is the continuation of the Hebraic church of the first century which existed prior to 59 AD and was founded in 37AD by St Peter and continues on to this day, they still hold there Mass in Aramaic the language that most scholar's believe Christ actually spoke in his day to day affair's.
en.wikipedia.org...
They have no problem with Jesus being God, one with the Father and the Holy spirit in the Unity of the Holy trinity.

This is not Gnosis, this is Knowledge, the truth shall set you free.



posted on Dec, 28 2016 @ 02:56 PM
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originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: SethTsaddik

This is because Father is God, Holy Spirit/Mother is God, and Son is God. They all have the same divine essence, but are different personalities. So the Trinity consists of three Co-equal Gods. Technically it is polytheism, but it does not reflect the power hierarchy of classical polytheism. Christ is only in subjection to the Father by choice.


I respectfully disagree that this is a valid explanation.

Though I can live with you thinking that, you have to do something and that is not the worst mystical interpretation ever.

I was just focused more on the scholarly aspects.



posted on Dec, 28 2016 @ 02:59 PM
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a reply to: LABTECH767

I am not arguing, just making a point.

Interpretation is less important than exact translation to me, I can interpret but not read Koine Greek.

And it has parallels with so called Gnosticism, I didn't say it was Gnosticism.

Chill.



posted on Dec, 28 2016 @ 02:59 PM
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a reply to: SethTsaddik

I can live with you disagreeing with me, though I would prefer that you explain in detail what part of it you disagree with, and why.



posted on Dec, 28 2016 @ 03:00 PM
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a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

What's really interesting is that we as living beings are made up of a trinity ourselves, that of the body, mind, and spirit; Mother, Son, and Father. Maybe the bible is pointing at us when it speaks of God? God said "I AM THAT I AM" which points to awareness itself in my opinion.

I think therefore I am. I am the universe made aware.



posted on Dec, 28 2016 @ 03:04 PM
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a reply to: LumenImagoDei

The Bible does say that we are made in the Shadow Image of God (better translation), and more specifically of Soul, Spirit, and Body. The Mind is actually one of the 7 components of the soul. It serves as the kidney system of the soul.
edit on 28-12-2016 by BELIEVERpriest because: typos



posted on Dec, 28 2016 @ 03:06 PM
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originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: SethTsaddik

This is because Father is God, Holy Spirit/Mother is God, and Son is God. They all have the same divine essence, but are different personalities. So the Trinity consists of three Co-equal Gods. Technically it is polytheism, but it does not reflect the power hierarchy of classical polytheism. Christ is only in subjection to the Father by choice.


Christ is human then, he chose to submit to God's will.

He is not in subjection he is just a Prophet and knows God, was given certain powers but not all. Doesn't know all times.

If technically it's polytheism then it's polytheism and I don't see how human sophistry or hierarchy changes that fact that you readily admit.

Also I have shown they are not co equal by any standards. Father is to Jesus "My God" but the reverse is not true.

And that is, in detail, what I disagree with.

Respectfully.



posted on Dec, 28 2016 @ 03:11 PM
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a reply to: LumenImagoDei

Regarding I Am...

Eheyeh Asher Eheyeh in Hebrew.

I find it interesting that Asher is the name of the son of Jacob/Israel.

And Asher or Ashhur(?) is patron deity of Assyria.

So I Am Asher I Am is an odd statement for Yahweh to make.

Considering his consort was named Asherah, before Josiah, it's very interesting.



posted on Dec, 28 2016 @ 03:11 PM
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a reply to: BELIEVERpriest

The Mind IS the soul, the soul is the individual personification of God where thoughts are made and memories are recalled. The Imago Dei, or Image of God, is the image we see of the world around us and is where experiences are made. We are created in God's image, the light we see with.



posted on Dec, 28 2016 @ 03:14 PM
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originally posted by: LABTECH767
a reply to: SethTsaddik

So are you arguing with the Greek's whom interpret it very differently to you.

Jesus is part of God, the first and the last, spirit of God's spirit, True God of True God not A God but God, if it was A God then the Greek's would still be worshiping a pantheon and would never have argued about the meaning of the Trinity.

Gnostic tradition is NOT the true Christianity, I will demonstrate a little for you.

There is a church, it is the oldest intact and independant church in the world, that church is the Syriac Orthodoxy, half schism-ed about a century or so ago and the Syriac split with them joining the Catholic Church whose seperately formulated cannon of law's and belief's are almost identical to there own.
The Syriac orthodoxy is the continuation of the Hebraic church of the first century which existed prior to 59 AD and was founded in 37AD by St Peter and continues on to this day, they still hold there Mass in Aramaic the language that most scholar's believe Christ actually spoke in his day to day affair's.
en.wikipedia.org...
They have no problem with Jesus being God, one with the Father and the Holy spirit in the Unity of the Holy trinity.

This is not Gnosis, this is Knowledge, the truth shall set you free.


Um... Gnosis is Greek for knowledge of this nature.

Gnosis IS knowledge.

Heh.

Syrian Church this, Catholic Church that, traditions that have a reason to continue with the same story told for 2,000 years, and I don't see why they would have a problem with their own theology.

The oldest texts are the Greek, not Syriac, and I am talking about proper translation not interpretation or theology.

Let the Churches believe in their religion, they should and I am happy for them.

But I am still pointing out a blunder and serious issue of improper translation regardless.
edit on 28-12-2016 by SethTsaddik because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 28 2016 @ 03:58 PM
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Come to find out God is just a word for a club they had back then in the galactic network..like space shriners.



posted on Dec, 28 2016 @ 04:02 PM
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originally posted by: SaturnFX
Come to find out God is just a word for a club they had back then in the galactic network..like space shriners.


I don't follow.



posted on Dec, 28 2016 @ 04:35 PM
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a reply to: SethTsaddik

The issue with the whole trinity thing is "equality"

Jesus never makes himself equal to God, in fact HE says three times in John that he is NOT equal to God, and in Matthew he states that "all power was GIVEN to him" which means something greater gave him said power.

Not to mention the fact that Jesus has his own God.... God does not have a God

the Trinity is invalid




posted on Dec, 28 2016 @ 04:44 PM
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a reply to: LumenImagoDei

Well Biblically speaking the Soul is a supernatural organ system composed of perception/eye, communication/mouth, will/heart, emotion/stomach, mind (knowledge storage)/kidneys, and loins/for fruit bearing. The Blood represents the stream consciousness, and this system works together to establish a crown (could be a crown of glory or shame). We tend to use these terms interchangeably, but this is what I have gathered from the Bible.



posted on Dec, 28 2016 @ 04:53 PM
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a reply to: SethTsaddik

Thank you for explaining your opinion.

Christ is God incarnated into man, therefore He is Hupostatic. He willingly made Himself low to fulfill the Fathers plan. This is called kenosis (emptying one's own power). In so doing, He willingly acknowledged the Father as His authority, not as His superior, therefore He called Him, "my God".

Yes, polytheism as in 3 Gods, but in following Christ, we pray and worship the Father and strive to learn His word which is His Son.



posted on Dec, 28 2016 @ 05:13 PM
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Interesting is how you seem to make the whole argument of the trinity come down to one verse
There are many others in scripture you seem to have neglected

Why not throw up the other verses that infer that Christ I'd part of the trinity



posted on Dec, 28 2016 @ 05:20 PM
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Hi hi, sorry I'm late to the meeting....

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I'll just leave these here. Remember, Priest, that you can avail yourself of the search term "Proof of Reincarnation" typed into any search engine you choose....or ask any librarian at the reference desk at your local library.....

you will find an overwhelming number of books and other publications that substantiate the FACTS that reincarnation is real. Even Jesus said so.



posted on Dec, 28 2016 @ 05:43 PM
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originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
a reply to: SethTsaddik

Thank you for explaining your opinion.

Christ is God incarnated into man, therefore He is Hupostatic. He willingly made Himself low to fulfill the Fathers plan. This is called kenosis (emptying one's own power). In so doing, He willingly acknowledged the Father as His authority, not as His superior, therefore He called Him, "my God".

Yes, polytheism as in 3 Gods, but in following Christ, we pray and worship the Father and strive to learn His word which is His Son.



I see.

I don't agree, but OK, interesting thoughts.

I'd say calling 3 of something 1 is not possible in a literal sense.

As a metaphor, allegory or something of the like I get it.

We have the 99 aspects of God, we just don't divide God into different persons. Every person has qualities or aspects and Allah has 99 that are traditional in Islam.

I get it, but it doesn't work in the proper translation. There is no equality between God who knows all and Jesus who does not.

Jesus also refers to his Father as his God.

If God did the same with Jesus, you'd have a good case.

He doesn't. Christ is a servant.







 
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