Why can't God forgive Satan if he can forgive man?

a reply to: SethTsaddik

I used direct quotes from the Qur'an to prove my point. You admitted to simply using your own logic to form your theories. Since when do our individual theories override the exact words in the Qur'an?

There's a reason why hubris is a sin. It causes us to overestimate ourselves, and in this case, it's leading you to think that your own logic is superior to the direct words of God. That's a bit backwards, don't you think?

God not only warns us that Shaytan is our open enemy, but He even included instances of Him warning a Prophet that Shaytan is our open enemy. Then He included an instance of a Prophet (Jacob) warning another Prophet (Joseph) that Shaytan is our open enemy. And then He even placed incidences where He commands the Prophet Muhammad to say that Shaytan is our open enemy. And those examples are just from the Ayats that I quoted.

Let's not forget that the entire final Surah in the Qur'an (An-Nas) serves as a prayer for protection from Shaytan. Why include that Surah at all if he's no threat to us?

1. Say: I seek refuge in the Lord of mankind,
2. The King of mankind,
3. The God of mankind,
4. From the evil of the sneaking whisperer,
5. Who whispereth in the hearts of mankind,
6. Of the jinn and of mankind.

But we should ignore all of this and the numerous examples that I didn't list because you believe your current logic is sound?

Though for the record, my "over thinking" comment meant that you're over thinking Shaytan's nature, not that you're thinking too much in general. There's a saying where I'm from: "You knew I was a snake before you picked me up". It's used for instances where someone ignores someone's infamy, gets betrayed, and then claims they didn't see the betrayal coming. Women who date known wife beaters then get hit by him; males who marry prostitutes then get cheated on; etc.

In this instance, Shaytan is the ultimate snake. All Islamic-Judeo-Christian scriptures have references to his treachery. The Bible even has a passage (Matthew 4:6) where he tried to get the Prophet Jesus to commit suicide by jumping from a cliff! lol. But no, we should ignore his nature, his past, and the numerous religious warnings and prayers specifically aimed against him because your current logic says that he's no threat? If you have any vices whatsoever, Shaytan has influence over you.

a reply to: enlightenedservant

I am not looking for an argument, have said all I have to say about the subject and am moving on.

I appreciate you using verses from the Qur'an, not that I have not read it but still.

I only pointed out the sillyness of saying I was over thinking something you were thinking about harder than me.

I don't actually need to quote the Qur'an to prove my point, but my logic is based on the Qur'an, quote or not, and the source of my thoughts.

Other than that everything I said I would repeat again, though I am not going to because it's already posted.

a reply to: enlightenedservant

You just have a different interpretation of satan than I do, I understand his status as adversary but the Qur'an is the sword that kills satan's power, not the sword that gives it to him.

The Qur'an appropriately deals with the adversary of man, and teaches us how to conquer, defeat him.

I truly wish you saw this, as I feel your view of satan is closer to the "god of this world" view of Christianity than Islam where satan is both chief and enemy of the wicked.

Hellfire and brimstone scare tactics are not for us, to know about satan is good, and you do.

To give him undue power is unhealthy, as it is to deny he can be overcome to the point he isn't YOUR enemy and has no power over YOU.

Which is what the Prophets were warning about.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: yuppa

NO because they will not remember any of them who were lost but will recognize those who are saved. A merciful god will give mercy to them by their new minds and bodies. So no it is not a contradiction.

Oh do please explain this with verse and scripture please. Bible scholars might know more than we do and i got my interpretation from one of them. I f you know teach.

originally posted by: auto3000
Ok, so bear with me.... If God can forgive man of murder, genocide, every sin he could commit then why cant Satan be forgiven? Why can't the angels that believed in him and followed him be forgiven? Because I assure you they realize it was the wrong thing to do after they did it. Why can't a man burning in hell that is screaming for help be forgiven? My son murders someone, i can forgive him, just as i forgave the man that killed my brother. God created us just as he created Satan and all of the fallen and SIN & EVIL. So you love your child, they commit sin, and burn screaming in torment for eternity? God also knows what you are going to do before he even created us, so why create sin if it will hurt us and make the innocent suffer? Free will? Couldn't we live without it? Are we not capable of knowing what evil is without practicing it?

Greetings and Namaste, my friend. First of all, you must understand a bit more about God before I answer your question(s). Below are some things I would like you to review.

1. God does not punish anybody. Sin and Karma are words to describe mistakes that you made in life. Remember life is just a school. There is a reason why people call this place, "School of Life." Some of us realize our mistakes and fix them. But others will continue through life making more and more mistakes. Good and evil exist in our world. But where God resides, there is no such as thing as good nor evil. It's a difficult concept to grasp because you are in a world that seem to have good and evil. You have good and evil on Earth to teach you lessons. And during any course in school, you are going to make mistakes and fail. Evil is NOT an invention of God. It is an invention of a lower consciousness, such as mankind.

2. God is outside of this world. In fact, He is outside of time and space. He doesn't intervene with our drama, nor is there anything to forgive in the first place. Because we are simply making mistakes for ourselves when we do evil things. Therefore in God's eyes, we have much to learn. Punishment is from your Ego and has nothing to do with God.

3. So with the above points, I would like you to realize that there are no such things as punishment, evil, sin or karma, and especially hell. Those are all inventions of Ego--the lower consciousness of mankind designed to protect oneself from all sorts of adversities of this world. It is an unreality. It is a fake consciousness that you listen to instead of God. It is an illusion to especially describe sin and punishment.

4. Thus, you should understand that God never forgave mankind, for there is nothing to forgive. Lucifer and Satan (they are two different individuals) are not being punished at this time. They are simply not allowed to interfere with mankind anymore. But the higher courts in God's government are waiting for them to change their minds and return to God. It is still up to their choices. They still have the freedom to choose a path, just like you and me. The third main person who "betrayed" God known as The Devil to most people are still roaming our star system. But again, he is having a hard time messing with people. The Master Jesus has declared that he is not allowed to interfere with mankind.

May some of these answers clarify your inquiring mind. It is good to have an inquiring mind. How else are you able to learn? The Kingdom of Heaven is within you, and indeed God wants you to transcend your current paradigm of understanding.

Peace be with you.

originally posted by: ctophil

originally posted by: auto3000
Ok, so bear with me.... If God can forgive man of murder, genocide, every sin he could commit then why cant Satan be forgiven? Why can't the angels that believed in him and followed him be forgiven? Because I assure you they realize it was the wrong thing to do after they did it. Why can't a man burning in hell that is screaming for help be forgiven? My son murders someone, i can forgive him, just as i forgave the man that killed my brother. God created us just as he created Satan and all of the fallen and SIN & EVIL. So you love your child, they commit sin, and burn screaming in torment for eternity? God also knows what you are going to do before he even created us, so why create sin if it will hurt us and make the innocent suffer? Free will? Couldn't we live without it? Are we not capable of knowing what evil is without practicing it?

Greetings and Namaste, my friend. First of all, you must understand a bit more about God before I answer your question(s). Below are some things I would like you to review.

1. God does not punish anybody. Sin and Karma are words to describe mistakes that you made in life. Remember life is just a school. There is a reason why people call this place, "School of Life." Some of us realize our mistakes and fix them. But others will continue through life making more and more mistakes. Good and evil exist in our world. But where God resides, there is no such as thing as good nor evil. It's a difficult concept to grasp because you are in a world that seem to have good and evil. You have good and evil on Earth to teach you lessons. And during any course in school, you are going to make mistakes and fail. Evil is NOT an invention of God. It is an invention of a lower consciousness, such as mankind.

2. God is outside of this world. In fact, He is outside of time and space. He doesn't intervene with our drama, nor is there anything to forgive in the first place. Because we are simply making mistakes for ourselves when we do evil things. Therefore in God's eyes, we have much to learn. Punishment is from your Ego and has nothing to do with God.

3. So with the above points, I would like you to realize that there are no such things as punishment, evil, sin or karma, and especially hell. Those are all inventions of Ego--the lower consciousness of mankind designed to protect oneself from all sorts of adversities of this world. It is an unreality. It is a fake consciousness that you listen to instead of God. It is an illusion to especially describe sin and punishment.

4. Thus, you should understand that God never forgave mankind, for there is nothing to forgive. Lucifer and Satan (they are two different individuals) are not being punished at this time. They are simply not allowed to interfere with mankind anymore. But the higher courts in God's government are waiting for them to change their minds and return to God. It is still up to their choices. They still have the freedom to choose a path, just like you and me. The third main person who "betrayed" God known as The Devil to most people are still roaming our star system. But again, he is having a hard time messing with people. The Master Jesus has declared that he is not allowed to interfere with mankind.

May some of these answers clarify your inquiring mind. It is good to have an inquiring mind. How else are you able to learn? The Kingdom of Heaven is within you, and indeed God wants you to transcend your current paradigm of understanding.

Peace be with you.

ohh, so basically God doesn't have moral standards, there's really no way to behave against any specific standards so we never have to worry about rather we are worthy of anything from him because there is no "criteria" from him ....ohhh.

a reply to: auto3000

IN this life we are not given this understanding on why Satan is condemned. All we know he sinned as the Cherub that covereth named Lucifer, was judged and awaits execution of that judgment even though he is alive in that judgement today, will spend part of that time, a thousand years, in changes in the bottomless pit, and then after that be let out to mislead those men who still hate God, then he is thrown into the lake of fire. Not even the bible speaks of it. There is some things we just don't know and we must leave it at that.

No need to argue we will not know until we stand before the LORD in that day.

a reply to: enlightenedservant

I read your Muslim debate on Satan, which is interesting. I am a bit of an amateur Orientalist as it goes. Allow me to settle the matter for both of you.

2:37

Adam learnt from his Lord words of inspiration, and his Lord turned toward him, for he is Oft Returning, Most Merciful.
38. We said, "Get down, all of you from here! And if, as is sure, there comes to you guidance from Me, whoever follows My guidance, on them shall be NO FEAR, nor shall they grieve.

In Islam that guidance is the Qur'an.

No fear, no grief to its followers, Muslims, is what the book says.

In that one passage is more vital information than all the Satan passages you quoted and I would have to say Seth seems to have the correct Islamic understanding of Satan based on the Qur'an.

While your verses are true, they are guidance not fear tactics.

a reply to: ctophil



Satan is not Lucifer, true.

Because Lucifer is pure myth and not correct Biblically speaking, as an angel.

That passage has been corrected and removed and no longer thought to be about Satan or an angel named Helel/Lucifer.

Helel is an adjective meaning "Shining One" and describes a human King who wants to be worshipped a la Nebuchadnezzar or Nimrod but unnamed.

Ezekiel is about the King of Tyre, Isaiah of Babylon.

The Bible uses metaphors that ruin the meaning if taken literally, like "Son of the Day Star" a common astrotheologial myth in many cultures, Hebrew being no exception, is about Venus at dawn and dusk being twins, trying to outshine the sun and being not visible at night, like a King trying to become a God.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: auto3000

IN this life we are not given this understanding on why Satan is condemned. All we know he sinned as the Cherub that covereth named Lucifer, was judged and awaits execution of that judgment even though he is alive in that judgement today, will spend part of that time, a thousand years, in changes in the bottomless pit, and then after that be let out to mislead those men who still hate God, then he is thrown into the lake of fire. Not even the bible speaks of it. There is some things we just don't know and we must leave it at that.

No need to argue we will not know until we stand before the LORD in that day.

a reply to: auto3000

IN this life we are not given this understanding on why Satan is condemned. All we know he sinned as the Cherub that covereth named Lucifer, was judged and awaits execution of that judgment even though he is alive in that judgement today, will spend part of that time, a thousand years, in changes in the bottomless pit, and then after that be let out to mislead those men who still hate God, then he is thrown into the lake of fire. Not even the bible speaks of it. There is some things we just don't know and we must leave it at that.

No need to argue we will not know until we stand before the LORD in that day.

Isaiah 14:12 in the 1611 KJV read, "Lucifer, son of the Morning" because of an incorrect understanding of the word Helel and its Greek equivalent meaning "Shining One" or "Light Bringer" being used to describe a King of Babylon, "Helel ben Shachar" means "Shining One!" Son of the morning star.

This was a man speaking to a man what God wanted him to say, he never uses a name and is not talking to Satan who to this day plays no role in Judaism as Helel/Lucifer they call him Samael or angel of death, and the Serpent along with Lilith who is said to have mated with Adam and Samael with Eve producing the race if Cain and probably the people who lived away from Adam's family in the land of Nod that shouldn't even exist if you go by just the Bible.

No Lucifer though with all that extra mythology he is not a fallen Cherub but a Seraph of the Seraphim class of angels that are all "Blazing/Fiery Serpents."

The annointed Cherub of Ezekiel is not actually an angel but the King of Tyre. I really don't know why it's so hard for Christians to accept and understand the use of metaphors applied to a ridiculously wealthy and powerful King that felt like a God and was not a real Cherub.

A combination of lack of information, oral traditions based on ages of misinterpreted then translated from the misinterpreted mistranslation traditions that were never Jewish and have officially been abandoned.

After all, The Morning Star is applied to Jesus in Revelation and he doesn't have a son named Helel/Lucifer.

originally posted by: TerriblePhoenix

a reply to: auto3000

IN this life we are not given this understanding on why Satan is condemned. All we know he sinned as the Cherub that covereth named Lucifer, was judged and awaits execution of that judgment even though he is alive in that judgement today, will spend part of that time, a thousand years, in changes in the bottomless pit, and then after that be let out to mislead those men who still hate God, then he is thrown into the lake of fire. Not even the bible speaks of it. There is some things we just don't know and we must leave it at that.

No need to argue we will not know until we stand before the LORD in that day.

Isaiah 14:12 in the 1611 KJV read, "Lucifer, son of the Morning" because of an incorrect understanding of the word Helel and its Greek equivalent meaning "Shining One" or "Light Bringer" being used to describe a King of Babylon, "Helel ben Shachar" means "Shining One!" Son of the morning star.

This was a man speaking to a man what God wanted him to say, he never uses a name and is not talking to Satan who to this day plays no role in Judaism as Helel/Lucifer they call him Samael or angel of death, and the Serpent along with Lilith who is said to have mated with Adam and Samael with Eve producing the race if Cain and probably the people who lived away from Adam's family in the land of Nod that shouldn't even exist if you go by just the Bible.

No Lucifer though with all that extra mythology he is not a fallen Cherub but a Seraph of the Seraphim class of angels that are all "Blazing/Fiery Serpents."

The annointed Cherub of Ezekiel is not actually an angel but the King of Tyre. I really don't know why it's so hard for Christians to accept and understand the use of metaphors applied to a ridiculously wealthy and powerful King that felt like a God and was not a real Cherub.

A combination of lack of information, oral traditions based on ages of misinterpreted then translated from the misinterpreted mistranslation traditions that were never Jewish and have officially been abandoned.

After all, The Morning Star is applied to Jesus in Revelation and he doesn't have a son named Helel/Lucifer.

So, if you found out that all that you have researched was a lie, how would you know it?

originally posted by: auto3000

originally posted by: TerriblePhoenix

a reply to: auto3000

IN this life we are not given this understanding on why Satan is condemned. All we know he sinned as the Cherub that covereth named Lucifer, was judged and awaits execution of that judgment even though he is alive in that judgement today, will spend part of that time, a thousand years, in changes in the bottomless pit, and then after that be let out to mislead those men who still hate God, then he is thrown into the lake of fire. Not even the bible speaks of it. There is some things we just don't know and we must leave it at that.

No need to argue we will not know until we stand before the LORD in that day.

Isaiah 14:12 in the 1611 KJV read, "Lucifer, son of the Morning" because of an incorrect understanding of the word Helel and its Greek equivalent meaning "Shining One" or "Light Bringer" being used to describe a King of Babylon, "Helel ben Shachar" means "Shining One!" Son of the morning star.

This was a man speaking to a man what God wanted him to say, he never uses a name and is not talking to Satan who to this day plays no role in Judaism as Helel/Lucifer they call him Samael or angel of death, and the Serpent along with Lilith who is said to have mated with Adam and Samael with Eve producing the race if Cain and probably the people who lived away from Adam's family in the land of Nod that shouldn't even exist if you go by just the Bible.

No Lucifer though with all that extra mythology he is not a fallen Cherub but a Seraph of the Seraphim class of angels that are all "Blazing/Fiery Serpents."

The annointed Cherub of Ezekiel is not actually an angel but the King of Tyre. I really don't know why it's so hard for Christians to accept and understand the use of metaphors applied to a ridiculously wealthy and powerful King that felt like a God and was not a real Cherub.

A combination of lack of information, oral traditions based on ages of misinterpreted then translated from the misinterpreted mistranslation traditions that were never Jewish and have officially been abandoned.

After all, The Morning Star is applied to Jesus in Revelation and he doesn't have a son named Helel/Lucifer.

So, if you found out that all that you have researched was a lie, how would you know it?

That question does not even apply to me, all I was doing was explaining how the myth of Lucifer started.

But you would find out through research and generally just wanting to know facts will lead you there. It's a lack of willingness to know know things that prevents people from knowing.

This Lucifer thing is common factual knowledge, takes 20 minutes to find all the facts from reputable sources.

originally posted by: TerriblePhoenix

originally posted by: auto3000

originally posted by: TerriblePhoenix

a reply to: auto3000

IN this life we are not given this understanding on why Satan is condemned. All we know he sinned as the Cherub that covereth named Lucifer, was judged and awaits execution of that judgment even though he is alive in that judgement today, will spend part of that time, a thousand years, in changes in the bottomless pit, and then after that be let out to mislead those men who still hate God, then he is thrown into the lake of fire. Not even the bible speaks of it. There is some things we just don't know and we must leave it at that.

No need to argue we will not know until we stand before the LORD in that day.

If the material that a person researches was false, how would anyone that research know that what they have referenced was not true?



Isaiah 14:12 in the 1611 KJV read, "Lucifer, son of the Morning" because of an incorrect understanding of the word Helel and its Greek equivalent meaning "Shining One" or "Light Bringer" being used to describe a King of Babylon, "Helel ben Shachar" means "Shining One!" Son of the morning star.

This was a man speaking to a man what God wanted him to say, he never uses a name and is not talking to Satan who to this day plays no role in Judaism as Helel/Lucifer they call him Samael or angel of death, and the Serpent along with Lilith who is said to have mated with Adam and Samael with Eve producing the race if Cain and probably the people who lived away from Adam's family in the land of Nod that shouldn't even exist if you go by just the Bible.

No Lucifer though with all that extra mythology he is not a fallen Cherub but a Seraph of the Seraphim class of angels that are all "Blazing/Fiery Serpents."

The annointed Cherub of Ezekiel is not actually an angel but the King of Tyre. I really don't know why it's so hard for Christians to accept and understand the use of metaphors applied to a ridiculously wealthy and powerful King that felt like a God and was not a real Cherub.

A combination of lack of information, oral traditions based on ages of misinterpreted then translated from the misinterpreted mistranslation traditions that were never Jewish and have officially been abandoned.

After all, The Morning Star is applied to Jesus in Revelation and he doesn't have a son named Helel/Lucifer.

So, if you found out that all that you have researched was a lie, how would you know it?

That question does not even apply to me, all I was doing was explaining how the myth of Lucifer started.

But you would find out through research and generally just wanting to know facts will lead you there. It's a lack of willingness to know know things that prevents people from knowing.

This Lucifer thing is common factual knowledge, takes 20 minutes to find all the facts from reputable sources.

Well, logic is processed so, looking for truth is more accurate.....but I am curious...we should not question it according to who or whom?