Free will or Predestination....

In catholicism we supposedly have free will. But God also knows everything. So if God knows all then he would know what was going to happen to me tommorow. So it has already been predestined. But I have free will to change that. But he would also know what I was going to change. Any comments on this.

Whether its pre-determination or pre-destination; both are unfounded and junk.

G-d knowing 'everything' is not 'pre-determination' nor is it pre-destination.....it is merely G-d being omnipotent, omnipresent, all-knowing and all-seeing. This does not imply that because He knows or see's 'everything' that He has already 'pre-set' or 'pre-determined' what will hapen or what is going to happen.


Hope that clarify's a little.

regards
seekerof

I like to think that im in control of my own destiny.

where's my damn bible....
someone needs a good hit over the head

praise the lord

It's all very complex, relative and simple at the same time.
We have example of appearing of mother Mary in Fatima where she said that if Russia is consecrated to her, there will peace. It shows that whats going to happen depends on us.

God can manipulate our reality very much, but we do have a choice.. if we do something right destined sequence of events A happens, if we do wrong, sequence of events B happens.

In the end, its all up to us, we do have a choice and thats why neither angels or satan may interfere with our free will.
Unless we pray to God, then he helps us if its according to his plan.

stop it with the god has a plan stuff!

I hate it when people say that because it contradicts everything about free will.

If god had a plan set out for us then we will all be worshipping him and be in heaven yet that doesnt happen so obviously there is no plan. He just sits and watches and judges....

I'd like to think I'm in control of my own destiny too. The Fatima reference is good but there are still only 2 choices there. Do or dont. And I still believe God knows what were going to choose. And If he knows its bound to happen. So we dont have a choice. Or do we?

Kitty what do you mean by that?

I agree with seekerof. God is all knowing and all seeing.

From this moment forward, God can see all possible futures which exist for me. Emphasis on 'there are an infinite amount of possible futures for me'.
He doesn't know what choices I'll make (FREE WILL), but he does know every possible choice I'll be faced with and the results/consequences of each.
He's holding the map so he knows every route, he just doesn't know which one i'll take. But he does see every route so he sees the one i take by default.
Everything is still possible.

Nightwalker,

Why must there be a linear, singular outcome? What if, in God's omniscience, He is aware of every conceivable outcome...the matrix of outcomes.

Then would you say "because He knows what will happen,it is predetermined?" That wouldn't make much sense then, because HE knows every conceivable outcome.

I agree with Seekerof. God KNOWING is not God predestining. The path is not set for any given individual.

One more thing to consider:

"And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart." Genesis 6:6 KJV

"And the Lord regretted that He had made man on earth, and His heart was saddened." Genesis 6:6 Torah (New JPS)

Here's my question to you: If you KNOW the outcome of an action prior to making it, and have the power not to make it, then how can you be regretful? How can you repent of an action for which you have predestined the outcome?

HINT: Answer is...YOU CAN'T.

So consider, just because God CAN know the outcome, doesn't mean He has chosen to see it. There are many outcomes...the path to the future truly is a matrix. I believe God knows the final outcome for each of those paths...He has left it to us to choose which outcome.

Very enlightening. I guess I have a new what of looking at things. Thanks all of you.


Nightwalker

okay i thought over the god has a plan stuff again and realized just because he has a plan doesnt mean he has to put it in action...

So im not sure if there is a plan or not


Back to the main topic..


Seems that everyone here thinks that he knows the outcomes to all the paths that we take and its up to us to decide. I think he knows what we will choose and how we are going to end up but i think he might not choose to pay attention. Its too mind boggling for me to worry about.

Free will is a choice one makes of their own accord....

Though God knows all things before they happen........He does not interfere in a way most people think......He loves all to make the right choice of their own 'free will'......but as people are ignorant to the truth,many see things that their own way is the right way........God does not interfere with man's 'free will'........Like there are good angels ......there are bad angels(Demons) that can influence what we do in our lives......we do have the upper hand to what we choose......all depending on what we want to follow...
Man was created all good.....but man chose out of their own 'free will '' to be seduced by the devil.......and broke the one commandement that God gave.
Man has always had 'free will' but using it wisely is another matter.
Because of the original sin, man has always given way to please the body and not in any way benefit the soul.....
like Valhall said quote///And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart." Genesis 6:6 KJV

"And the Lord regretted that He had made man on earth, and His heart was saddened." Genesis 6:6
And in order for things to get back as they were before 'man's transgression''.......God needed to come down to earth .....took flesh and became the ''Word'' (Logos) and became man.....to save man from Death(bodily death) that befalled man because of the sin in the garden of Eden....
The Crucifiction......Spilling of His blood on the Cross (like the lamb that was lead to the slaaughter)...to redeem man of the sin.....Babtism (immersion into the water 3 times as a cleansing of the original sin).....as stated in the Nicene Creed.......eg....''one babtism for the remmision of sins''
That is why there is babtism....also the babtism does not guarantee you that you wont sin .....
''Go ye therefore ,and teach all nations ,babtizing them in the name of the Father and the Son, and the Holy Spirit,and addaed,Teaching them to observe all things whatever I have commanded you (Matt 28:19-20 )
(All other mysteries that had been established by Him)
Sacrements or Mysteries are those holy acts through which the Holy Spirit mysteriously and invisibly cofers Grace (the saving power of God) upon man.
''Except a man be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God'',said the Lord.(John 3:5 )
Babtism is called circucision made without hands(Col .2:11-12)
Babtism is a spiritual birth,and as a person is born once,so also the sacrement of Babtism is done once,One Lord,one faith,one babtism (Eph. 4:5 )
For the sins......
''Receive ye the Holy Spirit:whoseever sins ye remit,they are remmited unto them;and whoesever sins ye retain,they are retained(John 20:22_23)
Even John the Babtist,preparing people to receive the Saviour, preached the babtism of repentance for the remission of sins...And were all babtized of him in the river of Jordan,confessing their sins(Mark 1:4-5)
Having received this power from the Lord,the Apostles performed the Mystery of Confession:And many that believed came , and cofessed, and showed their deeds(Acts19:18)

Man will always sin......never be perfect......but to struggle and try to overcome one's sins is pleasing to God......receiving The body and blood ....
''And He took the cup, and gave thanks,and gave it to them,saying ,''Drink ye all of it;For this is My blood of the New Testament,which is shed for many for the remission of sins' ''(Matt 26:26-28)Mark14:22-24;Luke 22:19-24;1Cor.11:23-25 )
It is called the Mystery of Holy Communion...

So All that we do is ''free will'' and we choose the path to follow......that is why some things happen to individuals that cannot be explained.....only God knows the outcome.....but will not interfere with man's 'free will''
You choose the path to follow....whether it be good or bad....wide or short.....you make that desicision....all on your own..
helen..

TULIPS TULIPS TULIPS TULIPS TULIPS TULIPS TULIPS TULIPS

It is definitely predistination as far as salvation. Based upon my personal experiences as being an unbeliever and becoming a believer and then dealing with skeptics. I have reached the conclusion that God selects those whom He chooses based upon His wisdom and then reveals Himself to that person in such a way that he (or she) will respond. As a matter of fact, I have become a five point Calvinist. As far as chosing God (Jesus Christ), no one will make the selection unless they have been chosen by God (predistination). This doctrine is well supported by the Bible. On his own man can do no good for his own spirtual welfare (utterly depraved). "Free will" is something made up to hide the fact that humans are totally dependent upon God for salvation. As far as God's omniscience, God exists outside of time. He can see past, present, and future as now. Since He can see the future as know, He knows the outcome of everything you do before it happens.

POPPYCOCK

But whatever floats your boat.

Post you Bible refences to prove me wrong. You cannot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Free will is the invention of certain churches not supported by the Bible.

Ewwww....

lookie what I found

www.wholesomewords.org...

I will not discuss this matter with you. You appear to be far too infected to have any intelligent reasoning left.

BUT, congratulations, you turned a wonderful thread into a nightmare!

I believe we are all called to ''rightousness'' as to what we do is another matter!


Choice of what path to follow is 'free will'.....There have been many in the past that followed the path to self pleasing and have chosen that path because of free will.....it is not to say that ,that path is what will destine them for the future!

You have a choice to change a path you follow.......you can turn the other way and change it......

In the lives of great Saints.....one of whom I have read was Saint Cyprian.....he lived in the 3rd century.....was a known magician of summoning Demons......he called them upon request......
His life was to serve evil.........but things took a turn and He gave up all he did in the past.......He chose to serve God.......and for doing this, he was put to his death.....Saint Cyprian is known for his prayers in exorcisms used today.......to expell demons....
Saint Cyprian and Justina........
Struggling through life may sometimes be a good thing in disguise.....for things can turn around if you chose to do so.......
It is as I call it...'free will'' because you alone have that choice......
Life is not easy........it is a struggle to be good.......but it is easy to be bad.
That is why I believe that man has 'free will ' and it is given to all......
helen.

I will not discuss this matter with you. You appear to be far too infected to have any intelligent reasoning left.

BUT, congratulations, you turned a wonderful thread into a nightmare!

If you don't like the answer, then do not ask the question. The question was "free will" or predistination. Just because I did not give the answer you liked, you decided to call me names. This shows that you are close minded since you call anyone who happens to disagree with your position as being ignorant and stupid. By the way, Francis A. Schaeffer was a Calvinist.

www.the-highway.com...

[Edited on 23-6-2003 by jagdflieger]

I didn't ask the question