Free will or Predestination....

Well you still show bias when you get into a little hissy fit just because you do not get fawning acceptance of your particular position. Just because I do not agree with your position, you decided to call me ignorant and unintelligent. Now isn't that a way to conduct a debate forum??

Originally posted by jagdflieger


Just because I did not give the answer you liked, you decided to call me names. This shows that you are close minded since you call anyone who happens to disagree with your position as being ignorant and stupid. By the way, Francis A. Schaeffer was a Calvinist.

www.the-highway.com...

[Edited on 23-6-2003 by jagdflieger]

Jag...I'm thinking you have a bit of some kind of chip on your shoulder. There are a number of rather unfounded statements above. 1.) Didn't call you names, 2.) no stupids or ignorants in my posts and 3.)

Originally posted by jagdflieger
Well you still show bias when you get into a little hissy fit just because you do not get fawning acceptance of your particular position.

There has been no hissy fit. YOU seem to be not okay with the fact that **I** do not accept what I consider to be YOUR fanatical ideas. I believe I said POPPYCOCK...but whatever floats your boat.

That's pretty accomodating as far as I'm concerned.

I believe you followed that up with a post that had eleventeen exclamation points in it...which qualifies as a bit of a hissy fit in my books.

YOU seem to be upset that **I** will not fawn over YOUR statements...and I won't, Jag. It won't be happening.

So let's leave at this.

I will not discuss this matter with you. You appear to be far too infected to have any intelligent reasoning left.

BUT, congratulations, you turned a wonderful thread into a nightmare!

Then what did you mean by the above statements????? It sure reads like you don't want any different views and it sure reads like you are impinging my intelligence. Why don't you call William and have me banned if you think so.

ITS ALL A BUNCH OFF #$%&^@&^
RELIGION, THE BIBLE

i was being sarcastic when i asked where my bible was


[Edited on 24-6-2003 by Toltec]

see what religion does...
now we have 2 kids fighting over something so sensless

kiss and make up already

Kitty what is happening is that two people are presenting arguments which do not involve profanity.

Clearly there is developing a heated argument but both do seem in control of issues you are not.

jagdflieger, I believe you are absolutly correct. We may have free will to a point but for the chosen we have a destiny and God knows in advance what that is and guides us threw it. We don't know where life will lead us and sometimes confused at where we have been. Sometimes when we are old enough we start to see why we were led to certain things and all the pieces of the puzzle start to come together. That is the reward

:::::wipes drool off lip:::::

I have recently been discussing the idea of past, present, and future with a friend. A good point to make is that the past and future are not fixed (determined). Although our society is not known for time travel, if it were that advanced one particular 'past' will not cease to exist if someone travels to the past and changes something. Instead, another form of what you refer to as the 'past' will take over.

You have to think of life from the perspective of God. God sees all possibilities. God, in other words, knows all outcomes regardless of your choice. God made a world where you can express your choice, be it helpful or hurtful. So if you believe that God exists, understand that your choice cannot "destroy" any type of "grand plan." Thus, you can make any choice you desire and that choice is supported by God.

To add a few side notes:

Most people's ideas of "what God is" merely reflects the great/best qualities within one's self. If you believe that you have the power to obtain the qualities that you currently give to God, then you make a new definition for what God is above your new "godly status," you'll find that life and eternity are a whole lot bigger than you first assumed.

My way of understanding is to think of God as the 'substance' and you as the 'designer.' You design your life and God provides the "stuff" and some of the tools. You have to make any tools that you want or don't have (and need). The object is to make something with "purpose." The grand scheme is to create, share our creations, help others' creations grow, and explore the possibilities of being infinite (our new definitions for ourselves). That is how true purpose is created for our lives and our souls.

Religion helps us to set boundaries and learn lessons the "not-so-hard" way. At some point you will need to release yourself from those boundaries set by your religion(s), but never lose the lessons. Think of a tree sapling that has a fence put around it so that it may grow straight. One day that fence will be removed and that tree may continues to grow straight up in the air without outside assistence. After 100 years the tree is enormous and stands as a living marvel to growth and life. I believe humans and their religions are very similar to the idea of this tree.

Are you free? Yes.
Are you determined? No.
Are all possibilities known? Yes.

Now choose one.

[Edited on 23-6-2003 by Protector]

I have reviewed this thread and have found where it all went awry. That would be right here:

Originally posted by Valhall
POPPYCOCK

But whatever floats your boat.

Instead of editing my original post, which would then lead to confusion on what all the hullaballoo was about. I will repost an edited version so that we can strive to get back to intelligent conversation.


[Edited on 23-6-2003 by Valhall]

IMHBLO...POPPYCOCK

But whatever floats your boat.

[Edited on 23-6-2003 by Valhall]

[Edited on 23-6-2003 by Toltec]

[Edited on 23-6-2003 by Toltec]

I think the directors of the Matrix had a bit of knowledge
on this topic. Look at the scene in Reloaded where Neo
Is standing in the room with the God of the Matrix the Architect. He sees everysingle choice he could make in that instance on TV screens. There is an infinite # of possibilities of what we could do this very second. We have a choice but God knows every choice. I declare this topic closed.


Nightwalker.

I don't understand free will. It seems that God is saying you can choose whether or not you want to believe in me but make the wrong choice and you will burn in Hell forever. That is not free will in my eyes.

Well, first let's take the "hell" issue out for discussion.

Now, if the consequences were the same for choosing to believe or not choosing to believe, it would no longer be an act of exercising free-moral-agency, it would be a preference, right?

In other words, vanilla ice cream, chocolate ice cream, which one do you like...you're still getting ice cream either way.

OK, it is free will in our view, we see only in three dimensions and only see what we are able to see. God is far beyond our contemplation, he sees things in every possible way...

Even though God knows we will do something, he's not making us... God is not shocked by your choices because he already knows what will happpen...

He allows us to do as we will, God knows all but does not choose our fate for us; he knows it, but does not decide it!

Val if I'm wrong lemme know
Tassadar

Well, I am not the one to say if you are right or wrong!

I can only comment on whether I agree with you or not. And by and large, I do. I am uncertain whether God chooses to "know" what path we will choose. I believe HE knows every possible path, and all the possible outcomes for us, but I am unsure if He has chosen to know what we will choose.

Of course, free-will means so much more than choosing an action, or picking a selection. And that is the deeper subject. The true "free-moral-agency" of having a soul. The thing that puts us above the angels.

I think that our destinys are already made but it is our choice on how to get there. We make the choice on how to live and how to behave but when it all come down to it, we end up right were we are supposed to.

MK ultra. Elf Vlf BFR's and all that stuff. The government deserves to have it's %@@! chopped off.

[Edited on 3-7-2003 by Toltec]

I dont think we have a said destiny. I think we make up out own lives. We have an infinite # of choices in our lives that we make. Different choices lead us down different paths.


Nightwalker


PS. I closed this topic a while ago.

Valhall, why must we leave Hell out of the discussion. According to many Christian doctrines, if you don't believe in their God, you don't get into Heaven.