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Truth and Falsehood

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posted on Oct, 9 2016 @ 02:40 PM
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Some people are entirely convinced that truth and falsehood don't exist. That they are "just" human concepts, and therefore requiring human imprimatur for their expression.

For me, truth is just coherency. And coherency, is another way of saying correlation. For example, if I find myself feeling sick, and name that feeling with the words "I feel sick, there is a correlation between my non-conceptualized experience of sickness, and the representation - the language I speak to myself. The two coming together in my act of thinking constitutes a correlation, and therefore, a coherent reflection on my lived reality.

Is the above statement true? Again, for me, I think only someone cognitively committed to the opposite viewpoint (truth doesn't exist) will find himself turning again and again to thoughts and views which whitewash, question and 'invalidate" whatever it was that they didn't like in the words they read.

Internal Liars



We humans are embeddedin a social-context which structures our embodied interpretation of the world. These two terms, embedded and embodied, are context factors which our conscious minds are egotistically driven (by the context itself, ironically) to dissociate as a causative-force in the way and manner we express our needs and build the lives we want in our living.

Because we are just as material as everything else, we do what our larger structure - the social process itself - determines in the particularities of our functioning. Just as the cells in my body obey the dynamical logic of the way the social context acts upon my mind, so too everything else: every condition of organized matter on this planet we live upon is intricated into the dynamics of multiple systems - the largest - the planetary - and whatever local dissipative structure happens to be there.

So, what are we, but a system of 10 octillion atoms organized at manifold scales to enact a consciousness that is electromagnetically communicating at an unconscious level with the electromagnetic fields of other bodies? Minds connected to minds, but with the center of the mind - the ego - knowing nothing of how it all works, indeed, not knowing how to even think about it (epistemologically) it confuses and confabulates an explanation that reflexively turns again and again to the "path of least resistance" i.e. it simply enacts what physical matter does in every closed organized system: given the historical conditions framing this present interaction, assume an interpretation that requires the least cognitive and emotional work. So what is idealization but the mind doing what is easiest? Delusion is easy - stating that 'this and this' is the case, simply because your brain doesn't attend or integrate the disheveling bit of information - the not wanted to be known knowledge - that disturbs the ease and flow of your being as a biodynamical system?

What is REAL knowledge?



It's been known since ancient times. The self is intricated in its environment, left with right, up with down, black with white. Differences exist, but they are convoluted and complex, and so a sophisticated and relaxed cognitive relation needs to exist for the complex reality to be recognized and assimilated. Truth is complex - even as it reduces all things to a simplicity.

The basic truth when it comes to our thinking and speaking as embodied biodynamical systems is embodiment. This term refers to the logic of feelings , which is to say, that our feelings constitute a form of knowledge about what we've experienced in the past and now come to expect. Feeling is a biasing informational process that "sieves" and takes out possibilities that are no longer consistent with the systems intrinsic prediction centered functioning. Again - feelings are reflexive. They just happen. But this is not the nature of reflective cognition. Reflective cognition is fundamentally oriented to gaining knowledge on reflexive cognition so that reflective cognition - or the ego - will know what is coherent for its well being i.e. what is essential to its relaxation and enlivenment as an organism - and what isn't.

In simple terms, the Adam and Eve narrative is all about this process. Adam - the ego - needs to keep an eye on Eve, his feeling body. Eve, or ChaWaH in Hebrew, actually means "living one", i.e. our feeling body gives us our sense of enlivenment.

So the issue, the ultimate of epistemological issues, is recognizing that coherent thought cannot happen in bodies that do not know that they need other bodies to be relaxed, happy and at peace with existence. Bodies that record traumas - others not knowing them kindly, others subjecting them to cruel ways of being, to which they are then cognitively deluded as to the 'reason' for its occurrence - are minds that are confused and unable to realize the war happening between their mind (ego) and their body (feelings) facilitated by the logic of their reptilian brain - or the part of our physiology - the periaquaductal gray - which reverts to the conservative logic of self-concern (believing others are fundamentally competitive or evil spirited) because the self has been traumatized too many times to trust that the other wont try to manipulate them.

Life is actually very simple, and there actually is an OBJECTIVE criteria of truth: correlating cognitive functioning with the biodynamical functional logic of your reflexive (autonomic) nervous system. If you're raised by people who are kind, patient, and understanding, they actually midwife the emergence of a self experience within the developing child that experiences the same feeling relations to itself.

We are so incredibly tied in to one another, yet capitalism - trauma - hides it from our brain-minds understanding of it.

The dark side - entropy - wants nothing than to keep humans unaware of how they function: but how could matter honestly be restrained from what it wants?




posted on Oct, 9 2016 @ 03:54 PM
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Some people are entirely convinced that truth and falsehood don't exist.

Their falsehood is the truth of the falsehood of falsehood being truth?

Life is simple, here's a really complex explanation of why



posted on Oct, 9 2016 @ 04:19 PM
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a reply to: feelingnothing

Yes, that's the type of reversal-of-actual truth hypnotizing rhetoric that I'm referring to.

It hypnotizes. It activates the egotism in the mind to respond to it, they "sing" to a part of you that is vulnerable to their singing. So the real activity of the Human mind is always metacognitive: how do you respond to your own response? Alot of the time we affirm it - and we affirm it because we have an unacknowledged egotism that has grown beyond being controlled or acknowledge: ideas and beliefs, mysticisms and spiritualities, may now "entomb" the mind into a way of seeing things.

And why? Because we can't help but enact a conscience. Conscience is just our brain-mind responding to those relational circumstances which enliven us i.e. which entangle us into the being of Others.

In short, because your capacity to be good derives from positive interactions with others, your brain is intrinsically offended every time you mistreat or exploit others: you are always hurting yourself at the same time that you hurt the other.

There is just no way of escaping this dynamic.



posted on Oct, 9 2016 @ 04:58 PM
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Hey Astynyax: Great OP, truly.

As for what is real KNOWLEDGE.
That's the real question, is it not.

what I find lacking in your layout of explanation of that is intrinsically, the mind, ego, consciousness, interacting with its environment. Kind of refers back to local and non local in a very specific, personal way. What constitutes knowledge? Our senses capture our empiric experience of such, and our brain puts whatever spin on it that it finds necessary, vis a vis our ego and personal experience, up to that point......

I am intrigued, therefore, by your mention of coalescing with the electromagnetic universe, that we as electromagnetic bodies, have to rely upon, to reach some understanding or knowledge. This, I think, is primarily where I would differ with your extrapolations, though you use language and intelligence extremely well to support your viewpoint. The electromagnetic possibilities and inherent miscommunications potentially resplendent within that context are what I find lacking in your OP. There is, therefore, some malleable and manipulatable extensions possible through the electromagenetic universe that both interrupts and spells our "knowledge" of the environment in which we reside, and therefore, knowledge extrapolating forward about what is possible, what the past is, and what will happen next, and even the physics of said environment in which we live, determining our knowledge in a very real way....

That being the accepted case, truth and falsehood (though I'm certainly not a fan of the post modernistic concept that all that is relative to your experience) become very negotiable and reflexive and intuitive, as well as referential. In other words, whatever you think the latter may be, someone who is your neighbor may have a whole other take on......
regards,
tetra
edit on 9-10-2016 by tetra50 because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 9 2016 @ 05:14 PM
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a reply to: Astrocyte
You mention 'reflexive and reflective cognition'. To try and understand you better, can you answer this?

I have come to see that I react to stimuli and that that reaction is for the most part unconscious, it happens without any real thought, it just is kneejerk. But I also have found that I can respond to stimuli. That is I can bypass the unconscious reactions, and rather than to just 'go' with that reaction, find a moment, pause, holding the reaction at bay, and then reflect upon the stimuli and it's effect upon my continuing interaction and taking charge of my response, response rather than reaction. But I guess I didn't ask a question there, so, does that make sense to you in the context of your writing above?



posted on Oct, 9 2016 @ 05:16 PM
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a reply to: TerryMcGuire
just for me, yeah, that's called reaction to your environment, or perceived environment. Surely that plays a huge part to what's being discussed here.



posted on Oct, 9 2016 @ 07:39 PM
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I think you're great.

And I think the people who are trapped in trauma... actually protect their trauma mindsets.

It's like they're stuck in self-serving prophecies because it's all they've known so they want to make it true.

Like they'll always be seeking out experiences to reinforce their own "truths." Instead of really letting go, and surrendering the self to science and the universe and whatever is there in the moment and becoming mindful? They hold onto old paradigms, which they decided at some point defined who they are. The old paradigms is the self.

Like if a person grew up in an abusive situation where a father beat them and/or their mother, they might subconsciously seek out abusive relationships when they're older... because they might've associated a parents love with physical abuse. And also romantic love, too, because they were a witness of their parents relationship. So if a person doesn't get physically abusive, then they're just not loving enough. But in order for the traumatized person to change their mind and decide that love is NOT getting physically abusive... that person would have to literally destroy themselves and everything they ever thought they knew and everything they experienced, in order to even begin to build a new paradigm... free of that trauma. But the trauma is their past, history, and everything about it helps define the present self. So self will protect it, because without it... self would be destroyed.

I think I keep saying the same things lately but only because it's a fairly new idea to me, like I've only just begun to really comprehend it myself.

I think in order to help free people from trauma, you have to show them another reality/paradigm and you have to get them to see themselves in it. Like make it feel possible. Make it feel real. Make it feel like destiny. Lay out the design, show all the baby steps, and gain their trust.

Also start young.

Otherwise they'll never follow you or anyone else out of their old ways. In fact, I'm pretty sure that most are hopelessly stuck. And it would be a waste of effort to struggle with them endlessly... cause what would that prove except your exhaustion? Instead, we have to be practical. Right? We have to learn who is who. Don't fret over people who won't budge. Let em be. And just learn the signs and focus on those who seem to want to be unstuck or who are more capable of it- and also... focus on the environment of the young. By making changes in our immediate environment. And be sure to show the young lots of different possible (positive) experiences, so they have options outside of their own private family life (in case it's abusive), because with those extra options/alternative realities and alternative paradigms, they have more of a chance to unstick themselves. Right?

Idk if that's the direction you're trying to go in. I think we're trying to break the trauma cycle? I don't know much about capitalism tbh, just a little. But how is that related? You think capitalism is the result of a trauma paradigm? Why?
edit on 9-10-2016 by geezlouise because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 9 2016 @ 07:40 PM
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a reply to: TerryMcGuire

That is basically the gist.

Our reactive responses are basically highly probable predictions by our brain-mind towards how to handle the present situation based on past experience.

There is such a pragmatism at root in how we function, that to deny a 'reflexive', automatic, stereotyping, categorizing, and somewhat "mindless" level in your functioning would just be self-delusion and a fundamental self-deceit that needs to be overcome.

This is basically how all animals work. Our bodies and the way it compels cognition is as stereotyped and "primed" as your dog is to the sound of a doorbell or anything that sounds like a doorbell. Notice how its reflection which corrects over-determined - incorrect - automatic responses to things. Its in noticing "I didn't see that rightly", that we begin exercising a more relaxed and nuanced relation to something.

We only thing rationally when our bodies are relaxed. Tensed bodies literally sap metabolic energy in muscle tension - energy that could otherwise be used for cognition and perspicacity.



posted on Oct, 9 2016 @ 10:29 PM
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a reply to: Astrocyte

We only thing rationally when our bodies are relaxed. Tensed bodies literally sap metabolic energy in muscle tension - energy that could otherwise be used for cognition and perspicacity.
Hence 'let me sleep on it.''



posted on Oct, 9 2016 @ 11:35 PM
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a reply to: geezlouise




because they might've associated a parents love with physical abuse.


Ever heard of Hebbs axiom, "whatever fires together, wires together". Sad but true. If things happen within the same context, the brain-mind can't tell the difference. It begins to think very rigidly about things. Characteristics that they "like" in a person, also happen to be characteristics that lead to violent outrages. What they like is egotism, a masculinistic and dominating and objectifying sense of being known.

It's quite sick how people do this to one another. None of this need exist, yet its so romanticized, fetishized and sacralized that it simply takes being "knocked out" - in some way or form, you need to be overwhelmed and overpowered and pushed towards some sort of acknowledgement about what is realistic when in it comes to human vulnerabilities and thus, what humans should value.

Make no mistake, this world is the male world, because it male needs dominating and subjugating the more essential and more human nurturing processes that actually generate brain-matter and make human beings conscious in the first place.

So yes, all of their thinking, all the nuances of self experience - in trauma, are linked to the strange affects linked to specific interpersonal cues you've become socially entrained to. Its a frustrating pattern because it is so cyclical and reinforcing - the environment has a certain 'power' in activating and generating an affect in you, and well - therein lies the evidence from brain science which shows mindfulness meditation as enhancing activity in the inhibitory left-hemisphere, which speaks to the way awareness in advanced mindfulness practitioners becomes more and more under conscious control - with affects being controllable and "inhibitable".




I think in order to help free people from trauma, you have to show them another reality/paradigm and you have to get them to see themselves in it. Like make it feel possible. Make it feel real. Make it feel like destiny. Lay out the design, show all the baby steps, and gain their trust.


That's basically it. We are each "hypnotized" into our own little world, simply because our brain becomes adapted to the unique relational expectancies and ways of adapting to them through our lifespan. This is so subtle because it is who your are. Who you are is basically and simultaneously a biodynamical process arising out physical molecular-chemical and electromagnetic cause and effect, at the small level and the field level, in terms of a mutual "sensing" of another systems (human bodys) total presence - both the feeling-relational one communicated in the electromagnetic dynamism of the body, and the ones revealed by sight, sound and touch.

To open the self up to the information in the "field", entails looking honestly at yourself to see what is there when you feel with others. How do others affect you? If you're honest, you reflect and seek to make clear what this negative affect means with regard to your past. These are the conditions: the present condition or circumstance, the feeling you feel, and its logical relation to something you went through in your past.

The fact is, humans are feeling beings who constitute the collective field they together make up in their relations to one another. This collective mind - embodied in the dynamism of our bodies and the information they innately possess the sensitivity to know about one another - is bigger, deeper, and more meaningful than the individual bodies we possess. The latter is the very structuring element - in ancient times, referred to in myth as the "cherubim" - the affective spheres where energy moves - unconscious feeling, cognition, embodied feeling and action - which assume a certain form based upon what sort of culture is being enacted between the individuals.

The ancients abused this knowledge by reifying it and turning it into something that could be manipulated and played with. The Human world 3500 years ago was steeped in a mythological consciousness that makes todays world - and the phenomenology we experience - look very different. The ancients - Humans 3500+ years ago, heard voices in their minds with regularity, to which their cultures had interpreted as a voice of the god - the voice of their own unconscious self - the part of them connected to the electromagnetic field, and therefore, able to communicate other-knowledge.

But this was also the archaic age of city states and so, patriarchy. The world was steeped in all sorts of demonic-entropic nonsense, and so confusion proliferated about how their own minds worked. They simply knew "oh, mind, life, deal with problems doing a) b)" etc. Their ontology included ghosts, spirits, and non-material causes upon the organization of matter - but they didn't know or appreciate that it was a function of their collective activity as a group. That reality was very much about the messianic values described by Moses, Plato, Jesus and the Buddha, to which humans had become increasingly ecologically dissociated from.




Idk if that's the direction you're trying to go in. I think we're trying to break the trauma cycle? I don't know much about capitalism tbh, just a little. But how is that related? You think capitalism is the result of a trauma paradigm? Why?


Capitalism focuses the mind on the self's needs. So, without realizing it, everytime you experience your consciousness, its about you, about your needs, and so, overtime, you develop this very powerful self-image - this self concept to which you become sensitive to defending. You relate to it as if there weren't a more essential arbiter of truth - the collective field - and not the self-concept which may emerge in the individual if the relationship begins to break down.

The human condition is deeply, deeply impressed by trauma. It may even be something impressed by the akasha itself - in the sense described by Sheldrake, that there is a "morphic resonance" upon the organization of the organism that derives from recently existing forms of that organism.

In any case, the whole process stresses in subtle enough ways to accumlate over time an ever worsening dissociation of self-body from itself, from those they live with, and from the metaphysical connection of mind and matter, originally unified before the fall from eden.



posted on Oct, 10 2016 @ 04:47 AM
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originally posted by: Astrocyte
What is REAL knowledge?

The new, critically updated, all inclusive, Universal definition of 'Knowledge';

"'Knowledge' is 'that which is perceived', Here! Now!!"

All inclusive!

That which is perceived by the unique individual Perspective is 'knowledge'.
All we can 'know' is what we perceive, Now! and Now! and Now!!!

'Ignorance' is that which is NOT perceived, at any particular moment, by any particular unique Perspective! Here! Now!

Further, as to 'true' and 'false';
"For every Perspective, there is an equal and opposite Perspective!" - The First Law of Soul Dynamics (Book of Fudd)
All Perspectives are perspectives of Reality, and Heads and Tails, eventually, with sufficient examination resolve themselves in the balance of the One!
All such 'thought/duality' is schizophrenia, if you believe it.
Schizophrenia is the fragmentation of that which is One!
All 'trues', all 'falses' resolve into One, just different Perspectives.
Thought imposes a 'grid' on the field, wherein we begin to believe that there are different 'things', separate from the rest of the One Universe.

"Every kind of partial and transitory disequilibrium must perforce contribute towards the great equilibrium of the whole.." - Rene' Guenon

True and false do exist! Everything exists. But Reality is not asw it appears... and is, depending on Perspective. *__-




edit on 10-10-2016 by namelesss because: just because



posted on Oct, 10 2016 @ 02:15 PM
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a reply to: Astrocyte

I would like to know what you're like in person, seriously.

I never heard of Hebs axiom but yeah. It sounds like the trauma-bond to me from that one expression, which isn't confined to human relations imo, or even confined to entirely negative experiences. Like you can be trauma-bonded to a tree outside in your yard, or to an idea or belief, to songs and art and other inanimate objects, and to other people of course and etc. And it could be brought on by something like winning the lottery and having lots of money all of the sudden, becoming youtube famous overnight or just sudden fame, a wedding, having a baby, and even the first time you meet the love of your life can be a little "traumatic" and that's why people retell that story over and over again, reliving those moments, and etc. That's why I believe if two people want to really try to stay together for a long time, they should periodically do something exciting(traumatic) together- like even just going on a rollercoaster together, or doing something new together, & learning something new together... it will "trauma" bond them together in a sense, and continue to strengthen that initial bond, because the excitement of new things is the fire(aka positive trauma) that wires.

But wow I just really mutilated the word trauma... it's something totally different now.

Anyway basically everything you're saying makes so much sense to me and I wonder what you're like in person. So if you're near NYC you should come to the ATS gathering that's happening, soon, lol. I'll be there. I don't know if you're male, female, or even how old you are, but I don't care because I think you'd be interesting to meet and I know I'd just love you no matter what.



posted on Oct, 10 2016 @ 02:38 PM
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Perception is reality.



posted on Oct, 10 2016 @ 03:29 PM
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a reply to: AshFan

I disagree.

Perception dictates behavior which forms reality, in a sense.

So, a person can convince themselves that whenever they jump they're flying. So their perception is such that they're flying when they're actually falling. And because of their perception, they might lack a fear of heights and one day jump off of a cliff to show off their flying abilities or whatever. The jumping off a cliff is reality, which was inspired by perception. And the falling is also reality. The perception is not reality.

Then again... I guess it depends on how you define "reality." And even "perception."

Perception is also a subjective reality and some might say that's all that really matters or that's all there really even is. But I am a believer of a more absolute, physical reality... the one we're all trapped in, where we're all equal subjects to the law. (like we all must drink water, eat, sleep and etc. to survive) And I believe it's our job to constantly realign ourselves so that our subjective perceptions more closely match the absolute reality, marrying ourselves to the truth, so to speak. Inch by inch, we're getting there.

Sorry, I am compelled to comment because I'm worried that others might get confused or not understand what's being said.
edit on 10-10-2016 by geezlouise because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 10 2016 @ 03:31 PM
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originally posted by: geezlouise
a reply to: AshFan

I disagree.

Perception dictates behavior which forms reality, in a sense.

So, a person can convince themselves that whenever they jump they're flying. So their perception is such that they're flying when they're actually falling. And because of their perception, they might lack a fear of heights and one day jump off of a cliff to show off their flying abilities or whatever. The jumping off a cliff is reality, which was inspired by perception. And the falling is also reality. The perception is not reality.

Then again... I guess it depends on how you define "reality." Perception is a subjective reality and some might say that's all that really matters. But I am a believer of a more absolute, physical reality... the one we're all trapped in where we're all equally subjected to the great law. (like we must drink water, eat, sleep and etc. to survive)


Hey, I never claimed that wrong perceptions didn't caused harm. The perception was that persons reality... all the way to the pavement.



posted on Oct, 10 2016 @ 03:36 PM
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a reply to: AshFan

Yes I see what you mean.



posted on Oct, 10 2016 @ 04:23 PM
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a reply to: geezlouise




But wow I just really mutilated the word trauma... it's something totally different now.


See, there's a difference between being excited, and being traumatized. Here's how I define the difference:

There are micro-traumas and major traumas. Mirco-traumas occur all the time in the world we live within but we don't properly describe their traumatic impact. What are they? You know when you say hi to someone and they don't say hi back? That is a micro-trauma - a "blip" in your brains hardware that didn't and could not have occurred in normal evolutionary environments where life was repeatedly shared with the same people, and the degree of emotional openness and intersubjective sharing was far greater than it is under-capitalism. Thus, a hi would receive a warm response, not a sense-of-being-alienated from the person saying hi, and turning your ahead away in discomfort, irritation or confusion.

We are Homo Sapiens "aggessans", as one philosopher put it. We are an epigenetically modified capitalist and capitalized form of human that is fundamentally insecure with his (or her) being and existence in reality. I always have to remind myself of this when I interface with other people. I almost feel like Jesus saying "they do not know what they do!". Literally, we cannot help but enact what our physiology has absorbed as reality. Thus, the only way I can help others is with my patience, honesty, sincerity and compassion. Speaking to them in the same way that they feel the need to speak to me - for instance - will only feed into the circular dynamic that generates this general state of things. If you don't like this situation - and know in fact that iterative changes in a positive direction will snowball to create the opposite dynamic - than its tolerable.

What am I like in reality? Surprisingly normal. I like sports. I have a naughty sense of humor, but I also think thinking is more important than 'just doing'. So, all the doing which this western world promotes and constructs into its individuals is "sieved" by my scientifically informed, psychoanalytically attuned and spiritually connected mental process, so that I always basically "reflecting" on the coherency of what I'm doing relative to my other more basic desire to be enlivened and feel relaxed.

It's not tiring for me or "overwhelming" to be a caring Human - I don't find caring to be overwhelming - as someone whose never experienced care, or has only known toughness, would naturally feel. And if I do find myself stressed (inevitable), I remind myself how silly this monkey-mind of mine is. I only feel the stress, anxiety and confusion I feel because another person (another perspective) is feeling such a feeling, but instead of expressing it honestly - in speaking it - they express the "shadow side" - their anger, irritation, or prideful insults.

People when they talk and communicate reflexively act upon one another's feeling-relations. That is, we literally get inside one another's brain functioning.

It makes me happy knowing you don't mind me getting in you.

edit on 10-10-2016 by Astrocyte because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 10 2016 @ 04:45 PM
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a reply to: Astrocyte

Well I'll be honest, it feels good to know that someone would dare to get in me and enjoy it.




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