Wolf of Benjamin and leaven of the Pharisees

originally posted by: Shahada

originally posted by: Khaleesi
a reply to: pthena


Nice to meet you pthena. I didn't know the OP was banned. I'm not comfortable continuing in this thread, as I don't really know what his thesis was. I can assume I know from what I've already read but to be honest I'm not really sure. I'll consider starting a new thread. It may take me a day or two to formulate a post since I would need to gather some information and write a cogent post. Thanks. It's always nice to have a reasonable discussion/debate!

You have yout facts straight it seems, it is good to see so many people waking up to the truth about Saul.

I would hate to see you leave the thread you have many interesting things to say.

Well, it does seem this thread is moving along it's own path, regardless of the OP's thesis. I see no sense in starting a new thread. I felt uncomfortable with altering the OP's thesis to suit my own views. Since the discussion is moving along of it's own volition, I see no need to bow out of the thread.

originally posted by: Matrixsurvivor
Jesus was humble...the real kind. Paul wasn't. Oh, he talked a good game, but that's all it was.

Understand that Saulus makes his «followers» confess to what was considered crimes in the eyes of the Empire. Saulus interrogates Peter and the others in front of the forum crowds, and forces them to walk with him the extra mile since he has stolen for himself a fake Roman ID, Paulus. Saulus reveals what he has seen the Christians do and what they believe, and believe it or not, everything the damned Saul made them confess to were crimes in the eyes of Rome and Jerusalem, and his words about the Church are deceitful and serious accusations and straight out squealing, making sure Peter and the rest of them were executed as enemies of Rome. Saulus is not campaigning for Christ, but against him, and he infiltrated the early Church and forced rigorous demands, laws and orders upon them and tried to destroy or at best transform or reshape the early church in his own image like some fake messiah.

Saulus was a right quisling, he never left his murderous path. Saulus is Satan. Clear as the day. The Pharicee leaven bound into the Holy Bible itself, occupying half of the books in the NT canon, I mean, this guy is wicked and his treacherous voice is still heard today, and it is as fake as it is devilish.

a reply to: Khaleesi

Awesome. The best thing is I don't see the usual fundies like I would at Bible study and people are actually open minded enough to contemplate the "forbidden" because we will never progress if we keep letting them turn everyone sheep.

And people seem to know the facts too, also good. I am so used to being ganged up on at Bible study I just quit going. They would get pretty creepy about it.

a reply to: Shahada

Why did you only use "pretend" when referring to Jesus?

Sad to say, but there are people who pretend to adore Jesus as a way to lure them into Noahide subservience to the superior Jewish mind. Hard to tell sometimes who's who. Reminds me of the Wheat and Tares parable.

Technology is good for some things besides brainwashing the masses you can use it to your advantage with a tiny bit of awareness which I call Faith and a mustard seed size of it can do greater things than move mountains.

I will conclude with saying that I have been a much better person since I figured this out and was kind of depressed before.

Wikipedia is my friend, it's quick, and constantly updated. And yeah, being in a constant state of uncertainty is a bad beat down. Less depressed and confused is better.

a reply to: pthena

I want to revise my previous statement .

It didn't occur to me until you mentioned New Jerusalem and I have read of 3 descriptions of it and all three are different.

I am only going to go into the Revelation description because it's the only one that happens to have relevance to the topic.

It's a cube. All the religions have this black cube symbolism hidden in architecture and major cities have them in the open, you can Google it.

It comes from the hexagon by drawing lines and connecting the correct corners it becomes a cube.

If you look at a cube from the correct angle you get a hexagon.

Creepily the symbolism is older than the telescope and the planet Saturn has a hexagonal storm being circled by a storm which is all over the Internet and the star of David is the star of Saturn since ancient times so they somehow knew this.

New Jerusalem has 12 of everything and 13 would screw up everything. I think Christianity has been controlled by Jews all along to be honest and I think evil is darker than anyone knows.

originally posted by: pthena
a reply to: Shahada



Then please, by all means explain that to the Dispensationalists. My suggestion is read the book by Victoria Clark, Allies For Armageddon: The Rise of Christian Zionism

See, that's my personal agenda, and Ms Clark explains it much better than I can.

Most christians have no idea of the evolution of christianity. They don't know what the early church fathers wrote. They have no idea that the end of the book of mark is complete bunk and was not there in the earlier texts of Mark, which was the earliest gospel.

They teach what is taught to them in seminary or as I like to call it, cemetary.

If you read the bible and look into the manuscripts you get to see where the scribes took out words to favor their interpretation. You need to study with a strong's concordance and lexicon, and let's face it, it's hard enough to get people to read their bible for themselves let alone use tomes like that!

There are excellent teachers of the word who do go line by line precept upon precept keeping the subject of the text first in mind to not go off on some odd tangent that the scripture is not referring to.

So, it's easy to see why people dislike Christianity and Pauline viewpoints. It's easy to see why they just ignore it all, but imho it's to their own detriment because God really loves everyone and gave us a personal letter to read.

a reply to: pthena

Wouldn't you say that people do the same thing with Paul that you say is done with Jesus and your reason for only using pretend with Jesus being what you said kind of off?

The Noahic Covenant means only Israelites had to follow the Torah and everyone else free to do as they wish. That's the Jewish belief at least (sick things were still forbidden like cannibalism also raw meat and fornication of the unmentionable kind).

So that means Paul was using what we call today propaganda and what was then just lies saying that the Apostolic Church were Judaizers and enforcing the Mosaic law which was never true.

a reply to: pthena

Wikipedia is my friend, it's quick, and constantly updated. And yeah, being in a constant state of uncertainty is a bad beat down. Less depressed and confused is better.

Man, ain't that the truth! I have REALLY enjoyed this thread. Don't leave Pthena. Hey, I just read through a few old threads of yours...Biblical Plunder and Choosing Gods. You have some wonderful insights on things...and a witty way of explaining them.
Also, it's so cool to know there are MANY who have figured out Paul/Saul wasn't legit.

originally posted by: Shahada
a reply to: Khaleesi

Awesome. The best thing is I don't see the usual fundies like I would at Bible study and people are actually open minded enough to contemplate the "forbidden" because we will never progress if we keep letting them turn everyone sheep.

And people seem to know the facts too, also good. I am so used to being ganged up on at Bible study I just quit going. They would get pretty creepy about it.

Oh man....I've been ganged up on, told I was going to hell, called all kinds of names...etc. So, I hear you. Glad you're in this discussion.

a reply to: Shahada

New Jerusalem has 12 of everything and 13 would screw up everything. I think Christianity has been controlled by Jews all along to be honest and I think evil is darker than anyone knows.

For me it's a matter of what channels of "truth" are accepted. To a certain extent yes, Christianity has from the beginning been a conduit for Hebraic thought.

Romans 15:16to be a minister of Christ Jesus to the Gentiles in the priestly service of the gospel of God, so that the offering of the Gentiles may be acceptable, sanctified by the Holy Spirit. 17In Christ Jesus, then, I have reason to be proud of my work for God. 18For I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me to bring the Gentiles to obedience—by word and deed, 19by the power of signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God—

Rev 21:24By its light will the nations walk, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it, 25and its gates will never be shut by day—and there will be no night there. 26They will bring into it the glory and the honor of the nations. 27But nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s book of life.

And where does this kind of language come from?

Zechariah 14: 9And the Lord will be king over all the earth. On that day the Lord will be one and his name one.

10The whole land shall be turned into a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem. But Jerusalem shall remain aloft on its site from the Gate of Benjamin to the place of the former gate, to the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the king’s winepresses. 11And it shall be inhabited, for there shall never again be a decree of utter destruction.e Jerusalem shall dwell in security.
...
16Then everyone who survives of all the nations that have come against Jerusalem shall go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Booths. 17And if any of the families of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, there will be no rain on them.

a reply to: UnifiedSerenity

but imho it's to their own detriment because God really loves everyone and gave us a personal letter to read.

I realize that yes, people do get goodness from the Bible, and others can't see what they see. Personal is the key. If you have a personal love letter from someone, that's not something you want to post on the internet. No one will get it, and then the person it's from is exposed to embarrassment and shame.

originally posted by: pthena
a reply to: UnifiedSerenity

but imho it's to their own detriment because God really loves everyone and gave us a personal letter to read.

I realize that yes, people do get goodness from the Bible, and others can't see what they see. Personal is the key. If you have a personal love letter from someone, that's not something you want to post on the internet. No one will get it, and then the person it's from is exposed to embarrassment and shame.

The only difference is it's a love letter as from a father to his children. So, it's for all of us, and I don't really think God is embarrassed by His words.

a reply to: Shahada

So that means Paul was using what we call today propaganda and what was then just lies saying that the Apostolic Church were Judaizers and enforcing the Mosaic law which was never true.

There were different factions, but generally the Jews considered the Torah to be theirs alone. There's a verse in Deuteronomy I believe about this being the birthright to the Israelites for all coming generations. That's still taught today.

1) Gentiles can join in the blessings of the world to come if they become full Jewish converts, including circumcision according to Abraham covenant. And then they could read Torah.

2) Gentiles could join in the blessings of the world to come if they come as servants, as per stated in Torah, not full members but still enjoying the blessings. They could not read the Torah.

3) (Paul's First position as per Galatians) Gentiles could become Abraham's seed through Jesus, no circumcision, no Torah.

4) (Paul's Second position as per Romans) Gentiles will always be separate from Jews. Servant class. No Torah.

That's 4 views that I am aware of. Two are Paul changing his position (flip-flop). The second position is closest to present day Noahide teaching. From God to Jews to Gentiles. Gentiles must learn from Jews. Paul's second position is very close to it.

a reply to: UnifiedSerenity

The only difference is it's a love letter as from a father to his children. So, it's for all of us, and I don't really think God is embarrassed by His words.

It's a magical (I wish I knew a better word) book. The Rabbis say that Jews are the one's with a mind capable of finding God in the Bible. Anecdotal evidence would suggest that the mind capable of finding God in the Bible is not a matter of blood relationship, but rather a Spirit relationship. (Maybe that's what born of the Spirit means?).

But not all people have that. Some people only see bad, some mixed good/bad. It's individual. That's why people shouldn't be pushed into it. Or especially be told that only one interpretation is allowed.

I hope that makes sense.

originally posted by: pthena
a reply to: UnifiedSerenity

The Rabbis say that Jews are the one's with a mind capable of finding God in the Bible. Anecdotal evidence would suggest that the mind capable of finding God in the Bible is not a matter of blood relationship, but rather a Spirit relationship. (Maybe that's what born of the Spirit means?).

But not all people have that. Some people only see bad, some mixed good/bad. It's individual. That's why people shouldn't be pushed into it. Or especially be told that only one interpretation is allowed.

I hope that makes sense.

I know where you are coming from, and some people for various reasons are spiritually shut down. Some of it's the environment, some of it is life experiences, and some of it is close relationships both that can be against God or zealots who drive them away from the Father.

I put very very little faith in anything said by rabbinical teachers. They have rejected the Torah in favor of Babylonian systems and mysticism. I like the Essenes a lot. Most of what we have been told of history really is a lie. People cringe when they hear you need to follow the Torah, but I have to ask, is it the do this and dont do that or is it lacking a personal relationship with the Father through Yeshua? I trust God and the word he sent to me. I don't always understand things in it, but I continue to seek out the truth in everything.

I like what Yeshua said, "The greatest commandment was to Love God and the second was like it, to love one another, if we do these two things, we cannot go wrong. We know intrinsically when we are acting in Love and when we are not. Imagine if you knew I loved you and would never seek you harm and everyone else in the world was the same way. We will only get there when we love God and seek Him first.

a reply to: UnifiedSerenity

Some of it's the environment, some of it is life experiences,

Sometimes a person has read the Bible for so many years in a certain way (with a systematic theology in mind) that when the collapse of the theology occurs they can't read it in any other way (habituation?). It's like blinders. The blind then are left wondering what good others are seeing.

People cringe when they hear you need to follow the Torah, but I have to ask, is it the do this and dont do that or is it lacking a personal relationship with the Father through Yeshua?

I don't intend to follow the Torah. Not my tribe. It's possible (I don't know) that for the tribe of Israel, Jesus (Yeshua) stands as the New Abraham (Bosom of Abraham now Bosom of Yeshua). Paul wrote "New Adam", but maybe "New Abraham" is more correct, in a Patriarchal sense. Instead of Children of Abraham, it's Children of Yeshua. That's a theory I got from reading someone else, then twisting to fit what would make sense.

Another reason to be wary of Paul. He taught something very similar to that in Galatians but then backslid away from it.

So if there's some truth to the theory, then having Yeshua as Patriarch may give entrance to finding a higher Father in Torah. Or just follow teachings of Jesus, whatever seems wisest.

Another theory, no end to those I suppose!

And now for my favorite passage from Paul

Some people have said that the only thing from Paul that is worthwhile is the Love chapter In 1 Corinthians 13. So now I will share my favorite passage:

1 Corinthians 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, "He has taken the wise in their craftiness." 20And again, "The Lord knows the reasoning of the wise, that it is worthless." 21Therefore let no one boast in men. For all things are yours, 22whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come. All are yours, 23and you are Christ's, and Christ is God's.

a reply to: pthena

I really don't know what to make of all the cube symbolism that nobody seems to notice. Rabbis wear a black cube on there forehead sometimes or some of them, the Kabba is housed in a black cube and I am sure rome bas one somewhere too.

It all has to do with the hexagram and Saturn and most religions use this symbol.

But Paul is not an apostle if new Jerusalem only has twelve apostles so Paul is lying and titled himself an apostle but nobody can be the 13th apostle because there's only twelve. False prophet.

a reply to: pthena

Pauline Christians are taught that they will be persecuted when out preaching and they think it is admirable to endure people who "persecute" you because they are just unlikeable and nothing like Jesus but think they are "saved" , whatever that is, and everyone else is damned. They will tip toe around it but some will tell you you are going to hell. I have, numerous times, gotten hammered by someone who was asking me a hundred times "Is Jesus Lord?'' and I say "he is the Messiah" but they need to hear you say the word Lord so bad for some reason.

So I prefer people who reject the self proclaimed but false prophet who was so obnoxious he took the title apostle illegitimately. They are laid back, reserved and astute as well as loyal.

Somewhat rare but growing with churches using "Nazarene" that reject Paul and I think more are coming. Even good relations with "Gnostic" beliefs exist too because they usually reject Paul today which wasn't exactly the case in 300 BC but it is a good change from the influence of the lowlife Paul.

a reply to: Shahada

I really don't know what to make of all the cube symbolism that nobody seems to notice. Rabbis wear a black cube on there forehead sometimes or some of them, the Kabba is housed in a black cube and I am sure rome bas one somewhere too.

There was a post awhile back by a member living in Greece, who pretty much said that Greek and American concepts of God are nothing alike. He/She did mention a distinction of symbols, Saturn(Cronus) was mentioned. I'll have to find the link.

But Paul is not an apostle if new Jerusalem only has twelve apostles

Why even care about a new Jerusalem? See Here