Wolf of Benjamin and leaven of the Pharisees

originally posted by: MrBlaq
a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

I'm sure the Pharisees would have suggested the same
emotional appeal to Christ for his many denunciations of
their behavior and doctrinal error.

But of course the spirit of the Pharisee is alive and well, and usually seeps
in via Judaism/Cabala uninspired nonsense to spread ludicrous heresies.

Nice deflection of what I pointed out. The Spirit of the Pharisee was alive and well in Paul, as well...even after his fake conversion.... which he told three different versions of, by the way. Why don't you write the words of Jesus to back your belief? Why Paul?

One other thing...can you explain how Jesus fulfilled all of Yahweh's laws?

a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

One other thing...can you explain how Jesus fulfilled all of Yahweh's laws?

He committed no sin, neither was deceit found in his mouth. 1 Peter 2:22

For your benefit, the words of Yahushua ;

Matt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. Matthew 5:17

originally posted by: MrBlaq
a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

One other thing...can you explain how Jesus fulfilled all of Yahweh's laws?

He committed no sin, neither was deceit found in his mouth. 1 Peter 2:22

For your benefit, the words of Yahushua ;

Matt 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. Matthew 5:17

Yea, got it. Now tell me EXACTLY which laws "Yahshua" broke that Yahweh commanded? (um...stoning for breaking the Sabbath, stoning for adultery...or how bout, reaching out to all those "unclean/sinners who would never be allowed to bring a sacrifice to the temple). Go read the OT, bro. Either Yahshua could break all those rules (cause he was God in the flesh), or maybe he wasn't representing Yahweh. Just maybe. He never told anyone to sacrifice an animal for their sins, either. Find it for me.

Oh...and talk from YOURSELF and not just the Bible. Can you do that?

a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

He never told anyone to sacrifice an animal for their sins, either. Find it for me.

Not a sin offering but an offering of cleansing, and a trespass offering.

Matt 8:1When he came down from the mountain, great multitudes followed him. 2Behold, a leper came to him and worshiped him, saying, "Lord, if you want to, you can make me clean." 3Jesus stretched out his hand, and touched him, saying, "I want to. Be made clean." Immediately his leprosy was cleansed. 4Jesus said to him, "See that you tell nobody, but go, show yourself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, as a testimony to them."

Lev14:1Yahweh spoke to Moses, saying, 2"This shall be the law of the leper in the day of his cleansing. He shall be brought to the priest, 3and the priest shall go forth out of the camp. The priest shall examine him, and behold, if the plague of leprosy is healed in the leper, 4then the priest shall command them to take for him who is to be cleansed two living clean birds, and cedar wood, and scarlet, and hyssop. 5The priest shall command them to kill one of the birds in an earthen vessel over running water. 6As for the living bird, he shall take it, and the cedar wood, and the scarlet, and the hyssop, and shall dip them and the living bird in the blood of the bird that was killed over the running water. 7He shall sprinkle on him who is to be cleansed from the leprosy seven times, and shall pronounce him clean, and shall let the living bird go into the open field. 8"He who is to be cleansed shall wash his clothes, and shave off all his hair, and bathe himself in water; and he shall be clean. After that he shall come into the camp, but shall dwell outside his tent seven days. 9It shall be on the seventh day, that he shall shave all his hair off his head and his beard and his eyebrows, even all his hair he shall shave off. He shall wash his clothes, and he shall bathe his body in water, then he shall be clean.

10"On the eighth day he shall take two male lambs without blemish, and one ewe lamb a year old without blemish, and three tenths of an ephah of fine flour for a meal offering, mingled with oil, and one log of oil. 11The priest who cleanses him shall set the man who is to be cleansed, and those things, before Yahweh, at the door of the Tent of Meeting. 12"The priest shall take one of the male lambs, and offer him for a trespass offering, with the log of oil, and wave them for a wave offering before Yahweh. 13He shall kill the male lamb in the place where they kill the sin offering and the burnt offering, in the place of the sanctuary; for as the sin offering is the priest's, so is the trespass offering. It is most holy. 14The priest shall take some of the blood of the trespass offering, and the priest shall put it on the tip of the right ear of him who is to be cleansed, and on the thumb of his right hand, and on the big toe of his right foot.

And etc. etc.

originally posted by: pthena
a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

He never told anyone to sacrifice an animal for their sins, either. Find it for me.

Not a sin offering but an offering of cleansing, and a trespass offering.

Matt 8:1When he came down from the mountain, great multitudes followed him. 2Behold, a leper came to him and worshiped him, saying, "Lord, if you want to, you can make me clean." 3Jesus stretched out his hand, and touched him, saying, "I want to. Be made clean." Immediately his leprosy was cleansed. 4Jesus said to him, "See that you tell nobody, but go, show yourself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, as a testimony to them."

Lev14:1Yahweh spoke to Moses, saying, 2"This shall be the law of the leper in the day of his cleansing. He shall be brought to the priest, 3and the priest shall go forth out of the camp. The priest shall examine him, and behold, if the plague of leprosy is healed in the leper, 4then the priest shall command them to take for him who is to be cleansed two living clean birds, and cedar wood, and scarlet, and hyssop. 5The priest shall command them to kill one of the birds in an earthen vessel over running water. 6As for the living bird, he shall take it, and the cedar wood, and the scarlet, and the hyssop, and shall dip them and the living bird in the blood of the bird that was killed over the running water. 7He shall sprinkle on him who is to be cleansed from the leprosy seven times, and shall pronounce him clean, and shall let the living bird go into the open field. 8"He who is to be cleansed shall wash his clothes, and shave off all his hair, and bathe himself in water; and he shall be clean. After that he shall come into the camp, but shall dwell outside his tent seven days. 9It shall be on the seventh day, that he shall shave all his hair off his head and his beard and his eyebrows, even all his hair he shall shave off. He shall wash his clothes, and he shall bathe his body in water, then he shall be clean.

10"On the eighth day he shall take two male lambs without blemish, and one ewe lamb a year old without blemish, and three tenths of an ephah of fine flour for a meal offering, mingled with oil, and one log of oil. 11The priest who cleanses him shall set the man who is to be cleansed, and those things, before Yahweh, at the door of the Tent of Meeting. 12"The priest shall take one of the male lambs, and offer him for a trespass offering, with the log of oil, and wave them for a wave offering before Yahweh. 13He shall kill the male lamb in the place where they kill the sin offering and the burnt offering, in the place of the sanctuary; for as the sin offering is the priest's, so is the trespass offering. It is most holy. 14The priest shall take some of the blood of the trespass offering, and the priest shall put it on the tip of the right ear of him who is to be cleansed, and on the thumb of his right hand, and on the big toe of his right foot.

And etc. etc.

In that verse from Matthew 8, the word used for sacrifice is "doron", which is a different word than burnt offering. It simply means "gift" or "present".
I think that the corrupt priests may have changed the Torah (added to it, took stuff out), after the Babylonian captivity.


◄ 1435. dóron ►

Strong's Concordance

dóron: a gift, present, spec. a sacrifice
Original Word: δῶρον, ου, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: dóron
Phonetic Spelling: (do'-ron)
Short Definition: a gift, present
Definition: a gift, present.









◄ 3646. holokautóma ►

Strong's Concordance

holokautóma: a whole burnt offering
Original Word: ὁλοκαύτωμα, ατος, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: holokautóma
Phonetic Spelling: (hol-ok-ow'-to-mah)
Short Definition: a whole burnt offering
Definition: a whole burnt offering.


There are so many contradictions in the Bible. Here's just a few regarding sacrifice.


2) God: I commanded no sacrifices. They are an abomination to Me

God speaks through the prophet Hosea:
“For I desire steadfast love and not sacrifice, the knowledge of God, rather than burnt offerings.”

(Hosea 6:6)


God said through the prophet Isaiah:
“I do not delight in the blood of bulls, or of lambs, or of he-goats … incense is an abomination to me.”

(Isaiah 1:11-13)


And through the prophet Jeremiah God said: “Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel: ‘Add your burnt offerings to your sacrifices, and eat the flesh. For in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, I did not speak to your fathers or command them concerning burnt offerings and sacrifices. But this command I gave them, ‘Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and you shall be my people …’”

(Jeremiah 7:21-23)


And through the prophet Amos God spoke: “I hate, I despise your feasts, and I take no delight in your solemn assemblies. Even though you offer me your burnt offerings and cereal offerings, I will not accept them; and the peace offerings of your fatted beasts I will not look upon. Take away from me the noise of your songs; to the melody of your harps I will not listen.”

(Amos 5:21-23)


God: Bring me sacrifices



But the instruction supposedly came from God that at all celebrations animals must be murdered and burnt “as a pleasing odor for the Lord,” for example, on New Year’s Day, on the Day of Atonement, on Passover, Feast of Weeks, Feast of the Tabernacles, or Feast of the First Fruits.

(Exodus 34:22)


Already with the exodus from Egyptian captivity, God commanded that “a lamb for a household” be slaughtered ... “You shall observe this rite as an ordinance for you and your sons forever.”

(Exodus 12:3-6&25)


But also in everyday life God wants to be “appeased” daily*, for example, in that one must present to him “ … all the fat that is on the entrails, and the two kidneys with the fat that is on them at the loins, and the appendage of the liver which he shall take away from the kidneys … it is an offering by fire, a pleasing odor to the LORD.”

(Leviticus 3:3-5)

* At least two lambs were killed every day (Num. 28:3-4)


Before the entrance to the temple, the smoke of the burning carcass rises and the community sings “Praise the Lord” (i.e. Psalm 135:1-3) and the God dwelling in the temple said about this place: “this is my resting place for ever; here I will dwell, for I have desired it.”

(Psalm 132:14)


Many times Jesus would say, "you have heard it said (meaning from the Torah)....but I say to you this". So, even Jesus didn't uphold parts of the Torah.
He challenged that whole animal sacrifice system, too.
But, that's getting into another topic. This is about Saul (who I think was a snake in the grass, too).

a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

I think that the corrupt priests may have changed the Torah (added to it, took stuff out), after the Babylonian captivity.

Or written most of it after the rebuilding of the temple.

Some of those Prophets may have been writing during a time when rituals for different deities were being performed in the temple. Ezekiel seemed to have had visions of "mixed" worship. If there is one temple only, and treaties between nations and clans are kept in that temple, and the nations had different deities, then of course there would be things in the temple that a monotheistic deity would not approve of.

Therefore the prophets were saying all the offerings were corrupted by being tainted by the alien influence.

Many of the Psalms that are supposedly by David weren't written until the return either.

It's my understanding that the purpose of the Pharisees was to provide Torah based instruction which did not rely upon a temple at all. So whether a temple stood or not was irrelevant. People + Torah was the important thing for Pharisees. In my understanding.

a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

I thought of a couple of scenarios for the healed leper.

The healed guy shows up at the temple and says, "Jesus healed my leprosy so let's do the cleansing ritual."

One priest turns to the other, "Have you ever done that? I haven't. Has that ever been done in this temple?"

The other priest turns to the former leper, "Just get out of here, we're tired of this, 'Oh Jesus healed me!' stuff."
---------------
Scenario 2

The healed guy shows up at the temple and says, "Jesus healed my leprosy so let's do the cleansing ritual."

The priest freaks out. "What the...! According to the Law, you're still unclean for 15 days during the ritual. Now you've polluted the temple! Get out of here!"

The priest turns to the other priest, "I won't tell if you don't."

a reply to: pthena

I figure when Jesus healed said leper then told him to go to the temple for the usual treatment, it wasn't because Jesus thought said ritual was necessary... Only to keep up an image... He said tell no one of what HE did

So the leper went to the the temple already healed, and let the priests believe it was them and their ritual that healed the man

a reply to: Akragon

The ritual wasn't even supposed to be started until the person was determined by priestly examination to be clear of the leprosy. The ritual doesn't cure, it makes ceremonially clean, as in clean enough to approach the temple.

But seriously, how often would that ritual have even been performed? When people get cast off, shunned, exiled, the mortality rate is rather high, as I understand it.

Remember that one time when Jesus was headed toward Jerusalem to participate in some festival, and he healed a leper on the way, then told him not to tell anybody, but he did anyway, and Jesus had to cancel his trip because word would have gone out that he was unclean from touching a leper? Yeah, people blab.

a reply to: pthena

Wouldn't you think this man was well known to have this disease?

IF that was the case why would Jesus tell him to go to the temple for this ritual?

a reply to: Akragon

Wouldn't you think this man was well known to have this disease?

Are you implying that maybe he was once a priest?

a reply to: pthena

No... Not sure how you came to that conclusion... but as you stated, when one is found with such a disease they are usually outcasts... and probably well known to the community

IF that was the case, IF he went to the temple they surely would have known said man had this affliction

IF this man wasn't allowed near the temple before he was "clean" so to speak... why would Jesus tell him to go?

a reply to: Akragon

why would Jesus tell him to go?

"...as a testimony to them."?

a reply to: pthena

Them... who he wasn't supposed to tell?

And who likely wouldn't believe him even IF he did tell them Jesus cured him...

So again, i would say he told this man to go to the temple to partake in said ritual just to keep him on the down low

a reply to: Akragon

the down low! Right. You could have given a hint earlier. I'm really slow with subtle.

It's been a long day jumping between several threads. Think I'll and then maybe

a reply to: pthena

sounds like a plan my friend

Cheers!

both Peter and Paul are absolute bull#. Mary Magdalene was the rock on which Jesus built his church. The patriarchs just couldn't accept that a woman knew more than them so they rejected her. But the secret teachings of Christ managed to spread and religions like Valentinianism and Manichaeasm were true whereas Christianity is pure bull#.