Depression: It’s Not Your Serotonin {Extensive article many ref's}

From:
GET HOLISTIC HEALTH
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Written by Kelly Brogan, MD
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DEPRESSION: It's Not Your Serotonin
Millions believe depression is caused by 'serotonin deficiency,' but where is the science in support of this theory?
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[BoX Note: This is a complex topic and a very sobering article. I believe it is wholesale true. Sadly, very sadly, true. I believe that the best THEREFORE, WHAT is to seek out a quality COGNITIVE BEHAVIORAL THERAPIST skilled in treating depression.
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THEN apply one's self as doggedly, as tenaciously, as persistently over 6-18 months until the rewiring of your brain has been achieved. The first 30, 60, 90 days may well be the most challenging. After 90 days of earnest work, your life will be markedly different. After 18 months or sooner, you likely will not want to look back and no longer be whipped about like a wet noodle by destructive feelings.]
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www.getholistichealth.com...
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What if I told you that, in 6 decades of research, the serotonin (or norepinephrine, or dopamine) theory of depression and anxiety has not achieved scientific credibility?
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You’d want some supporting arguments for this shocking claim.
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So, here you go:
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The Science of Psychiatry is Myth
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Rather than some embarrassingly reductionist, one-deficiency-one-illness-one-pill model of mental illness, contemporary exploration of human behavior has demonstrated that we may know less than we ever thought we did. And that what we do know about root causes of mental illness seems to have more to do with the concept of evolutionary mismatch than with genes and chemical deficiencies.
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In fact, a meta-analysis of over 14,000 patients and Dr. Insel, head of the NIMH, had this to say:
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“Despite high expectations, neither genomics nor imaging has yet impacted the diagnosis or treatment of the 45 million Americans with serious or moderate mental illness each year.”

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To understand what imbalance is, we must know what balance looks like, and neuroscience, to date, has not characterized the optimal brain state, nor how to even assess for it.
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A New England Journal of Medicine review on Major Depression, stated:
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” … numerous studies of norepinephrine and serotonin metabolites in plasma, urine, and cerebrospinal fluid as well as postmortem studies of the brains of patients with depression, have yet to identify the purported deficiency reliably.”

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. . .
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Dr Daniel Carlat has said:
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"And where there is a scientific vacuum, drug companies are happy to insert a marketing message and call it science. As a result psychiatry has become a proving ground for outrageous manipulations of science in the service of profit."

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. . .
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Read more at: www.getholistichealth.com...

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BoX Notes from the rest of the article:
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1. When drug companies tell docs what science is--the two institutions work together to maintain a house of cards based on very faulty evidence.
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2. In a 2008 study in the New England Journal of Medicine by Turner et al . . . 12 antidepressants approved based on 74 studies . . . 37 out of 38 positive studies were published. 36 were negative and only 3 of those were published as negative and 11 were published with a positive spin.
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3. Placebo effect is persistently huge.
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ALTERNATIVE OPTIONS
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4. Tryptophan etc. is a false, flawed, inappropriate alternate treatment.
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5. A good source:
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survivingantidepressants.org...
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or
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beyondmeds.com...
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6. Andrews et. al.
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For instance, in naturalistic studies, unmedicated patients have much shorter episodes, and better long-term prospects, than medicated patients. . . .

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7. A Harvard study . . . 50% of drug-withdrawn patients relapsed within 14 months. . . . evidence of a destructive rewiring of the brain chemistry by the meds.
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8. A retrospective 10-year study in the Netherlands: 76% unmedicated recovered without relapse vs 50% of those treated with meds.
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9. Analysis of evidence indicates "that there are no specific antidepresant drugs, . . . the term "antidepressant" should be abandoned" i.e. that many meds have similar effects.
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10. GREENMED INFO VERSION:

www.greenmedinfo.com...

DEPRESSION: IT'S NOT YOUR SEROTONIN
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BTW, the color image at the top of the article is of the synapse between neurons.
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What they are doing is trying to treat the symptoms. They don't want to cure the disease. Been studying these medicines and they go about it in a roundabout way, creating medicines to alter enzymes instead of just telling people how to fix it themselves. You can't patent natural plants or food chemistry that already exists.

Many times the dietary changes needed to fix the problem is not much. But some people won't change anything, they would rather take a pill than have to change anything.

originally posted by: rickymouse
What they are doing is trying to treat the symptoms. They don't want to cure the disease. Been studying these medicines and they go about it in a roundabout way, creating medicines to alter enzymes instead of just telling people how to fix it themselves. You can't patent natural plants or food chemistry that already exists.

Many times the dietary changes needed to fix the problem is not much. But some people won't change anything, they would rather take a pill than have to change anything.

WELL PUT. AGREED.

And all the more so with the proven TREATMENT OF CHOICE: Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. It takes work to rewire one's brain. Dogged work. But it's lastingly successful with NO negative side effects.

So the best cure for seeing reality for what it is is to hire someone to brainwash you? You can't be serious. Depression is caused by reality and the mind rejecting what it sees and overwriting it with what it knows.

Now of course I'm not going to say that brainwashing yourself might not be the best course of action if you would really rather not face reality. It can be beneficial in a sort of way if you feel the need to fit in and be successful in this society as it now functions.

But. Generally, I believe people who are depressed are depressed for good reasons. Their minds see the world the way it is and not the way they wish it was. But more than that, they are unable to ignore it. Suspension of disbelief doesn't work for them.

So again, I guess it might help if you're depressed and you go to a shrink. If that is what you want. But to say it's the best thing for everyone completely ignores their personal wishes.

Thanks for a chance to deal with these flawed notions.

originally posted by: BrianFlanders
So the best cure for seeing reality for what it is is to hire someone to brainwash you? You can't be serious. Depression is caused by reality and the mind rejecting what it sees and overwriting it with what it knows.

1. A huge wealth of research and other literature has documented for a long time that

It does NOT really matter what happens in life.
That's pretty much mostly the same for most everyone, sooner or later.
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What MATTERS IS
WHAT WE DO IN RESPONSE TO WHAT HAPPENS IN OUR LIVES.
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That is the CRITICAL DIFFERENCE between SUCCESS vs FAILURE
& HAPPINESS vs DESPAIR.

Corrie ten Boom learned that even in the horrid concentration camp in WWII Germany, hope could still arise.

Viktor Frankl learned in his concentration camp as a Jewish psychiatrist that those with meaning in their lives survived. Those without meaning, died.

2. Optimists succeed better and more often than pessimists.
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2.1 Optimism can be taught.
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3. Resilience is a priceless attitude and skill. And it can be taught and learned.
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4. RAD (Attachment disorder) sets people up for depression and a list of other problems. Those dysfunctional deficits CAN be overcome and worked through.

Now of course I'm not going to say that brainwashing yourself might not be the best course of action if you would really rather not face reality. It can be beneficial in a sort of way if you feel the need to fit in and be successful in this society as it now functions.

You have a poor understanding of Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. There is NO DISTORTING OF REALITY OR DENIAL OF REALITY. It is a matter of learning what to focus on and avoid ruminating destructively on.
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Like the old Native American story of the old Chief telling his son about the two wolves--one a black, mean destructive wolf and one a white, good wolf. The boy asked which one won. The old man said--whichever one you feed the most.
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But. Generally, I believe people who are depressed are depressed for good reasons. Their minds see the world the way it is and not the way they wish it was. But more than that, they are unable to ignore it. Suspension of disbelief doesn't work for them.

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You just don't "get it."
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It is NOT A MATTER of "the way the world IS." It is a matter of perspective, attitude and approach to what is.
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If you think that being bowed low to the ground by focusing on the dark clouds of life and the day will help you cope and succeed better, I'm here to tell you that
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THAT idea is horribly wrong, inaccurate, untrue, false, dysfunctional.
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BTW, I was seriously depressed for most of my first 20-30 years of life. I know what I'm talking about beyond my professional training.
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So again, I guess it might help if you're depressed and you go to a shrink. If that is what you want. But to say it's the best thing for everyone completely ignores their personal wishes.

a reply to: BrianFlanders

It is possible to learn to rewire your stinkin' thinkin' one's self. There's plenty of good materials on the net about dealing with one's own depression.

And, the simple Scripture "As a man thinks in his heart, so is he." . . . is also instructive sufficiently to help one begin to crawl out of the dark pit of depression.

Ruminating in a downward spiral will NOT change WHAT IS.

AND, it will make one's response to WHAT IS more dysfunctional, useless, counter-productive and self-defeating.

(Excerpt quote(

originally posted by: BrianFlanders
So the best cure for seeing reality for what it is is to hire someone to brainwash you? You can't be serious. Depression is caused by reality and the mind rejecting what it sees and overwriting it with what it knows.
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Depression is not "caused by reality" - it's caused by ones perception of, and reaction to their reality. Reality itself does not dictate how a person responds to it.

Depression is natural. Many times its a subconscious indicator that you have the wrong priorities in life. Sometimes its just a result of going through rough patches. Too many people waste their time running from depression when they should be facing it head on. Screw psychology! Don't be some doctor's lab rat. Sort your problems out yourself. Get some exercise. Eat a little healthier. Get some sun.

Depression is between you and God...and if you don't believe in God, well then maybe you really do have something to be depressed about after all. I speak from experience.

originally posted by: dogstar23
Depression is not "caused by reality" - it's caused by ones perception of, and reaction to their reality. Reality itself does not dictate how a person responds to it.

Absolutely indeed.

We don't have 100% free-will.
We don't have 0% free-will.

Between those boundaries, we have a lot of options in how we respond to what life lands in our laps.

Thanks.

originally posted by: BELIEVERpriest
Depression is natural.

Hmmmmm . . . Certainly it IS common to man . . . King David wrestled with it . . . It is probably fitting enough to call it natural.

Many times its a subconscious indicator that you have the wrong priorities in life.

QUITE SO. TRUE, INDEED. . . . though maybe not always unconscious.

Sometimes its just a result of going through rough patches.

True.

However, many folks get stuck in endless loops of depressed ruminations from one crisis to the next with little or no relief. Telling them to

--pray harder
--sing hymns more
--read The Word more
etc. etc. etc. just doesn't tend to work.

One thing that does tend to work even in the short term fairly reliably--but is very hard for folks to force themselves to do--is to reach out and help someone else who is worse off in some way.

A longer term solution, to avoid living constantly in the pit of despair, requires retraining one's stinkin' thinkin.' That's just a fact.

Too many people waste their time running from depression when they should be facing it head on.

There is a lot of merit in facing one's depression head on. But what does that mean? It can be helpful to tune in on what the depression seems to be most about--to feel the depths and breadths of it . . . and any other parameters and factors of it.

However, it is NOT useful to LIVE there 24/7/365. Learn from exploring the parameters of the depths of depression and then do something about the source of it. And, at some point, get on with the rest of life, regardless.

It CAN be useful to schedule 5 minutes an hour to be depressed--focus on it--concentrate on it for 5 minutes/hour or 10 min per 3 hours or whatever seems right. And then the rest of the time REFUSE TO THINK ABOUT ANYTHING DEPRESSING AT ALL--PARTICULARLY THE STANDARD ENDLESS LOOP RUMINATIONS. This is often a great exercise/pattern to discipline one's self to while learning to rewire the brain away from stinking thinking.

Screw psychology!

DOODNESS. What did psychology ever do to you? Pee in your cereal?

Psychology is merely the study of organisms in terms of how they work as an organism; why they do what they do and how to predict what they might do. It's not a great deal different in learning about why cows do what they do; rivers do what they do; weather does what it does; trees do what they do etc.

God gave us the capacity and the mandate to explore and discover His secrets in the whole of life. Psychology of humans is merely the human part of walking out our God-ordained destiny in such explorations and discoveries.

Yes, there's terrible psychologists and some stupid, ignorant theories etc. in psychology. So what. That's life. AS God pointed out to me in my B.A. psych program--if there was a valid truth in psychology, the kernel of it was already in the Bible.

Don't be some doctor's lab rat.

Quality therapists do not treat their clients as lab rats. If one does, find a different one. Quality therapists are caring coaches toward living in a more functional vs dysfunctional way.

Sort your problems out yourself.

Sooooooooooooooooo, evidently you have been soooooooo brilliant . . . sooooooooooooooooo balanced . . . soooooooooo well adjusted . . . and sooooooooooo UTTERLY FREE OF RAD (Attachment Disorder) . . . that you have never had any persistent problem you couldn't overcome very quickly and thoroughly successfully.

Welllllllllll, BULLY FOR YOU! Even if all that were true, it would be NO occasion to be haughty or look down a self-righteous nose at those who have longer, very protracted, even constant struggles with various traumas . . . such as depression . . .

Most such folks HAVE REPEATEDLY TRIED every way they have known how and every way their friends and relatives have suggested to get better . . . and failed utterly . . . which only increased their depression.

Get some exercise. Eat a little healthier. Get some sun.

Certainly those activities are a great help with depression. They may well not be sufficient. For most people with chronic depression, they are not a sufficient relief.

Depression is between you and God...and if you don't believe in God, well then maybe you really do have something to be depressed about after all. I speak from experience.

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Yes, being disconnected from God is a major reason to be depressed, certainly.
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However, I know about as many authentic Christians who are depressed as unChristians. There are a myriad of reasons for that. Mostly, they are still people; usually with RAD, as are unChristians.

Cheers.

originally posted by: dogstar23
Depression is not "caused by reality" - it's caused by ones perception of, and reaction to their reality. Reality itself does not dictate how a person responds to it.

That is debatable. Doesn't the individual's environment play a significant role in influencing their thoughts and feelings?

a reply to: BO XIAN

This is the biggest load of # i have heard in a long long time. Some people will believe anything they read and label it as fact.
I can tell you one thing for sure, using a concentration camp to support your theory that only those with meaning in life survived is wrong, Hitler did not discriminate when it came to killing.

Therapy is nothing to do with perceptions of reality... Perhaps you should look up the different types of therapy.
Some focus on relationships or mentalization, some offer skills to support you through difficult times such as impulsive behaviour which is a result of ones need to cope or forget (impulsivity includes substance misuse).
While i appreciate you have your own beliefs but to discount years of studies with this poorly presented theory is absolutely outrageous. Why can the 2 not be exclusive? i think you are doing what is commonly called "splitting" or "black and white thinking". Perhaps some MBT will help you to analyse information in a more constructive and less ridiculous way?

OK i'm done!! Now depression is linked to God? You sir are clearly clutching at straws here, those who are brought up wihout faith know no God so how do you factor that into your theory genius?

a reply to: BO XIAN

Depression is an entirely normal human state.

We all oscillate between many different emotional states, attempting to medicate out of experiencing one of them dehumanizes us.

Depression masked is not depression cured.

Face it and deal with it. It's only in extreme cases where nothing else works that we should medicate and suppress. Doctors are too eager to dispense this stuff instead of helping us to deal with things.

a reply to: Dark Ghost

Of course our circumstances, experiences, environment influence our thoughts and feelings.

The issue is . . .

Are we going to be whipsawed back and forth by circumstances like a wet noodle or a feather in a tornado?

Or

Are we going to stand up and realize that no one and nothing has the power to FORCE us to FEEL anything UNLESS

WE GIVE THEM THE POWER to do so.

And, if we realize we have done that, we can take that power back; adjust our feelings and our thinking more constructively and behave accordingly; think accordingly and even cultivate our feelings accordingly.

There is actually a fair amount of research about feelings being reflexes like a pin ball bouncing off the pin ball's walls

or

deciding that we don't have to be wimpy pin balls in the game of life but can take a stance even regarding our feelings as well as our thoughts.

What a post full of sweetness and light. LOLOL.

Maybe I'll bother anyway.

originally posted by: thomadom
a reply to: BO XIAN

This is the biggest load of # i have heard in a long long time. Some people will believe anything they read and label it as fact.

Actually, there is considerable research backing up my assertions about depression and remedies for depression beyond medications. Further, in addition to my professional training and experiences on such score, I had the experience of overcoming 3 decades of serious depression via just such strategies.

So, I can say emphatically on 2 foundations that your assertions above are off the wall wrong.

1. The research shows you are wholesale wrong.

2. My own experiences consistent with the research demonstrated you are wholesale wrong.

3. Actually quite a lot of my work with a fair number of depressed counseling clients and students also demonstrated how wrong your assertions are.

I can tell you one thing for sure, using a concentration camp to support your theory that only those with meaning in life survived is wrong, Hitler did not discriminate when it came to killing.

I see your research, reading, awareness are grossly lacking yet again. It also appears that you did not understand the point. Evidently you have not read Viktor Frankl's MAN'S SEARCH FOR MEANING.

Dr Viktor Frankl was an excellent trained observer as a psychiatrist. His long stay in the concentration camp DEMONSTRATED TO HIM THAT

Those who had no meaning in life died within a matter of days.

Those who had a significant meaning in life (could be a variety of things from family, to God, to beauty, to whatever)--those people lived at least weeks longer and usually months longer and many of them survived the war.

THAT'S JUST A FACT. You don't have to believe the facts. However, the facts won't change to match your lack of awareness of their validity.

Therapy is nothing to do with perceptions of reality... Perhaps you should look up the different types of therapy.

Evidently you are unaware that my education includes a well-earned PhD in Clinical Psychology with 35 or more years of therapy and university teaching on two continents.

As psychiatrist Dr Milton Erickson of Phoenix demonstrated in his masterful cures of "impossible cases" from around the country . . . he demonstrated that THERAPY HAS VIRTUALLY EVERYTHING TO DO WITH "PERCEPTIONS OF REALITY." And, a considerable body of research has backed up Dr Erickson's demonstrations and strategies.

Some focus on relationships or mentalization, some offer skills to support you through difficult times such as impulsive behaviour which is a result of ones need to cope or forget (impulsivity includes substance misuse).
While i appreciate you have your own beliefs but to discount years of studies with this poorly presented theory is absolutely outrageous. Why can the 2 not be exclusive? i think you are doing what is commonly called "splitting" or "black and white thinking". Perhaps some MBT will help you to analyse information in a more constructive and less ridiculous way?

Think away. Perhaps your thinking might eventually stumble into a more correct perspective about me and what I'm asserting.

Actually Mentalization-Based Treatment is another proof of some of my main points in this thread.

OK i'm done!! Now depression is linked to God? You sir are clearly clutching at straws here, those who are brought up wihout faith know no God so how do you factor that into your theory genius?

Evidently you failed to notice I was replying to a poster writing from their own Judeo/Christian perspective. It was a very congruent, thoughtful and caring thing for me to respond out of the same reference beliefs that we shared to his points.

If the shoe does not fit, BY ALL MEANS, PLEASE, DON'T WEAR IT! SHEESH!

My dissertation discussed the juncture of such things but I have no intention of sharing that nor writing such 200 pages out here.

As to being a genius, I didn't have anything to do with that. And, it can easily be as much of a challenge as a blessing.

[Yes, I realize you were being snide and satirical.]

edit on 30/6/2016 by BO XIAN because: word change

THANKS for your kind reply.

originally posted by: chr0naut
a reply to: BO XIAN

Depression is an entirely normal human state.

TRUE. Though I would not call it an ideal state by any means. It certainly is common and very real.

We all oscillate between many different emotional states, attempting to medicate out of experiencing one of them dehumanizes us.

Depression masked is not depression cured.

I GREATLY AGREE WITH THAT!

Face it and deal with it. It's only in extreme cases where nothing else works that we should medicate and suppress. Doctors are too eager to dispense this stuff instead of helping us to deal with things.

I greatly agree with you on those scores.

Thanks thanks.

a reply to: BO XIAN

So let me get this right. You don't agree with me so i'm wrong and wrong and wrong and wrong.
Honestly your "thoery" may have some ground and i agree in some respects but you are making assumptions based on your own beliefs and personal experience.

I would like to see your peer reviewed study that supports your theory but i know from the information you have already provided that you can't because a lot of what you have said is again based on your personal experience.

Also you need to take into consideration the environmental and social factors involved with a lot of mental illnesses. You are not the only person who has or has had a long term mental illness and my stance is a result of my experience and research of personality disorders and therapies related to them.
Having said that though, i do share your views on "antidepressents" but i do not make the assumption that my experience is everyone elses experience... That is called a breakdown of mentalization.

a reply to: BO XIAN

It's not JUST serotonin; mood is regulated by three neurotransmitters - serotonin, norepinephrine, and dopamine.

Antidepressants aren't a simple class of drugs...there are many different ones which augment serotonin, norepinephrine, or dopamine, or else augment a combination of these, and sometimes augment all three together.

There is a mass of clinical evidence to support this; study the monoamine hypothesis.

Antidepressants are effective in relieving depression for many, many people (myself included), but the ones currently favoured by MDs (the SSRIs) are less so than the old variety (the MAOIs and tricyclics). That's because they are safer in overdose, so there's been a trade-off between safety and efficacy.

But there is no doubt that they work and that it's not simply due to the placebo effect. I've been a mental nurse for nearly quarter of a century and I have witnessed elderly dementia patients improve in mood with antidepressants that they, sadly, had no idea they were taking or why. Most of these ADs were/are serotonergic in action (ie SSRIs).

Light therapy and sleep deprivation - two non-drug therapies for depression - are known to augment serotonin levels in the brain. So, if serotonin, or rather lack of it, doesn't play a significant role in depression, I'd be surprised.

And what's so bad about drugs anyway? Personally, I'd much rather take a pill than see a shrink. For anything.

CBT has a lot of good press which I'm sure is kosher. Fine, whatever suits the individual.

Actually, I have a brother who has undergone CBT and he swears by it; mind you, he was also on an antidepressant.

You pays your money, you takes your choice.

a reply to: thomadom

I don't assert wrongness based on disagreement with my opinions.

I base such things on my experiences and various studies.

I rarely look up references that are from reading over 55+ years of more or less adult living.

I usually don't insist that my perspectives cover 100% of all cases and 100% of all contexts.

Yes, I tend to write emphatically when I'm convinced that my perspective has a lot of validity of some depth, foundation and breadth. My writing is rarely wimpy. Just my style.

I'm comfortable with my assumptions. The vast bulk of the ones included in this topic have come from a ton of training and experience wherein the assumptions were persistently proven to be congruent with "objective" reality.

I don't assume that my experiences 100% match anyone else's experience either. LOL.

a reply to: CJCrawley

Did you read the whole article?

It discussed a lot of those issues.

I understand that the antidepressants can at least appear to work--particularly for some individuals.

What's wrong with them? The side effects--some of which can be increased suicide potential, probability.

And, in terms of working in counseling with such a person--I think the progress tends to be slower as the person is in too much of a very blunted chemical straight-jacket--kind of zoned out, numbed out . . . not so much to work with in conventional reality--sadly.

Anyway--thanks for your kind reply. I understand the validity of a number of your points. I just disagree on the priority or supremacy of some of them.