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Depression: It’s Not Your Serotonin {Extensive article many ref's}

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posted on Jun, 30 2016 @ 04:46 AM
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a reply to: BO XIAN

Look all i'm saying is the "facts" and evidence you have provided hardly support your claim. And what i am most perplexed by is that you have in so many words disputed the genetic factor involved with mental illnesses namely depression?
If this is the case i can provide many illnesses that are a result of genetics, which in turn cause depression. Chiari Malformation comes to mind. Some physical illnesses cause depression because of a persons inability to cope with the illness but in some cases depression is a direct result of a physical illness, making depression a symptom not an stand alone illness. How is this factored into your studies?
Also your figures are they based on a study of diverse backgrounds? And how do you factor in those who do not seek medical help for their mental illness (mostly men)?




posted on Jun, 30 2016 @ 05:09 AM
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originally posted by: thomadom
a reply to: BO XIAN

Look all i'm saying is the "facts" and evidence you have provided hardly support your claim.


I'm not convinced that you understand well my main points. I think most of them are rather self-evident. The scientific research is merely extra support. Certainly the OP article has a number of good and verified points.

I care somewhat about folks fair-mindedly considering factors, facts that might help them.

However, at my age . . . it's not a great loss to me when folks don't understand; don't agree; don't believe etc. etc. I know what I know that I know. LOL.



And what i am most perplexed by is that you have in so many words disputed the genetic factor involved with mental illnesses namely depression?


In your mind. I didn't get into that, at all. Sure genetics has an impact on a lot of maladies. And there's some evidence that depression is one of those things. However, I've NOT gotten up to speed on how much of that would be foundational DNA and how much of it would be epigenetic.

AND, WE KNOW that WHAT A PERSON THINKS ABOUT A LOT AND TALKS ABOUT A LOT can even change their DNA.

"As a man thinks in his heart, so is he" rings truer and truer even per scientific research.



If this is the case i can provide many illnesses that are a result of genetics, which in turn cause depression. Chiari Malformation comes to mind. Some physical illnesses cause depression because of a persons inability to cope with the illness but in some cases depression is a direct result of a physical illness, making depression a symptom not an stand alone illness. How is this factored into your studies?

Also your figures are they based on a study of diverse backgrounds? And how do you factor in those who do not seek medical help for their mental illness (mostly men)?


YES, Cognitive Behavioral Therapy works with a diversity of personalities and a diversity of causes of depression.

I gather, BTW, you are unaware of Joni Erikson Tada . . . as well as . . .

ARMLESS, LEGLESS NICK VUJICIC:

Nick Vujicic - Attitude is Altitude.com / Life Without Limbs.org

www.youtube.com...

= = =

Overcoming hopelessness | Nick Vujicic | TEDxNoviSad

www.youtube.com...

= = = =

Never give up by Nick Vujicic

www.youtube.com...
.
= = =

BULLY TALK

www.youtube.com...
.
= = =

Motivational speaker Nick Vujicic on the power of staying positive

www.youtube.com...
.
= = =



posted on Jun, 30 2016 @ 05:13 AM
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originally posted by: BO XIAN

originally posted by: thomadom
a reply to: BO XIAN

Look all i'm saying is the "facts" and evidence you have provided hardly support your claim.


I'm not convinced that you understand well my main points. I think most of them are rather self-evident. The scientific research is merely extra support. Certainly the OP article has a number of good and verified points.

I care somewhat about folks fair-mindedly considering factors, facts that might help them.

However, at my age . . . it's not a great loss to me when folks don't understand; don't agree; don't believe etc. etc. I know what I know that I know. LOL.



And what i am most perplexed by is that you have in so many words disputed the genetic factor involved with mental illnesses namely depression?


In your mind. I didn't get into that, at all. Sure genetics has an impact on a lot of maladies. And there's some evidence that depression is one of those things. However, I've NOT gotten up to speed on how much of that would be foundational DNA and how much of it would be epigenetic.

AND, WE KNOW that WHAT A PERSON THINKS ABOUT A LOT AND TALKS ABOUT A LOT can even change their DNA.

"As a man thinks in his heart, so is he" rings truer and truer even per scientific research.



If this is the case i can provide many illnesses that are a result of genetics, which in turn cause depression. Chiari Malformation comes to mind. Some physical illnesses cause depression because of a persons inability to cope with the illness but in some cases depression is a direct result of a physical illness, making depression a symptom not an stand alone illness. How is this factored into your studies?

Also your figures are they based on a study of diverse backgrounds? And how do you factor in those who do not seek medical help for their mental illness (mostly men)?


YES, Cognitive Behavioral Therapy works with a diversity of personalities and a diversity of causes of depression.

I gather, BTW, you are unaware of Joni Erikson Tada . . . as well as . . .

ARMLESS, LEGLESS NICK VUJICIC:

Nick Vujicic - Attitude is Altitude.com / Life Without Limbs.org

www.youtube.com...

= = =

Overcoming hopelessness | Nick Vujicic | TEDxNoviSad

www.youtube.com...

= = = =

Never give up by Nick Vujicic

www.youtube.com...
.
= = =

BULLY TALK

www.youtube.com...
.
= = =

Motivational speaker Nick Vujicic on the power of staying positive

www.youtube.com...
.
= = =




I was turned on to the motivational speaker, Nick Vujicic a few years (more than I'd care to say) ago by my kids.

I loved his message and I believe I read that he fell in 'love' and had a child.

There is always hope, isn't there?




posted on Jun, 30 2016 @ 05:18 AM
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S&F Following the discussion with a popcorn bowl, well actually, just following..
Would be great to see a debate, discussion, pro&cons..

------------------------

The OECD average is 11,2/100.000 suicides..
.
..
We still have the same amount of suicides in my state, regardless if medication or not.
.
..

In Japan, L-Theanine has been approved for use in all foods, including herb teas, soft drinks, desserts, etc. with some restrictions applying to infant foods. It provides a unique brothy or savory (umami) flavor to green tea infusions. It is generally recognized as safe (GRAS) as an ingredient by the Food and Drug Administration (FDA), and is sold as a dietary supplement in the US. However, the German Federal Institute for Risk Assessment, an agency of their Federal Ministry of Food and Agriculture, has objected to the addition of isolated theanine to beverages.
.
But treatment also needs a healthy lifestyle since it, something about enzymes.. Only works in Japan..Cause of their Healthy choice of food..



posted on Jun, 30 2016 @ 05:20 AM
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a reply to: BO XIAN

Let people live in Narnia, prevents suicide..Then you medicate them instead when they are out of the closet
.
..
Maybe came out wrong..



posted on Jun, 30 2016 @ 05:22 AM
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a reply to: TNMockingbird

INDEED.

There's a youtube about his love relationship with his wife. I haven't watched it but I noticed it as I gleaned those above from the list.

He's been through it all and still has to wrestle daily with incredible deficits.

Yet, he's an overcomer in a list of ways. Quite an inspiration, for sure.

. . . For those with hearts and ears to hear and eyes to see.



posted on Jun, 30 2016 @ 05:24 AM
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a reply to: tikbalang

Interesting.

I wonder what the follow-up stats are after insertion in foods.

Thanks.

I don't understand your 2nd post at all. Perhaps you could elaborate?



posted on Jun, 30 2016 @ 05:32 AM
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Depression is a game just like life, you can play to win or play to lose... honestly neither matters we don't make it out alive.

There is no such thing as quality of life, only the experiences life grants.



posted on Jun, 30 2016 @ 05:33 AM
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a reply to: BO XIAN


Interesting. I wonder what the follow-up stats are after insertion in foods.


The solution with this, people ( sold as a dietary supplement in the US ) always overdose when something works "goooood". So the government in Japan, does the dosage for you so you dont overdose..

Its like;" Hey it works i drank 8 cups of matcha tea, and i feeeeel so relaxed, almost stoned.. And someone says;" uhm, you shouldnt drink more than 2 cups. "

I dont "drink", but i can take a 2,25% Alc. Just to get that "little" relaxed feeling..
Most just drink until they are wasted..

2nd post; If people are happy in their world of make belief and not hurting anyone, let them stay there..



posted on Jun, 30 2016 @ 05:40 AM
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a reply to: BO XIAN

I understand your points i just disagree with how you have come to your conclusion. I believe you are missing vital factors in your research and am trying to stop you from making blanket statements which may or do not apply to all cases.
You are very good at avoiding answering my questions and following them up with unrelated evidence that really does not prove or disprove anything it just highlights personal experiences.
What i want is good hard facts. Since doctors can't agree on what causes mental illnesses why do you then disagree with or ignore everything i say like you have conclusive prove that what you are saying is fact.

And i didn't ask about CBT i asked if your studies as a whole reflected our diverse cultures, experiences and environment? If not then you are making assumptions only.
If you want to ignore my questions and deny my input then i really have no reason to be here.

I worry about the future of science if conjecture and personal beliefs are all the evidence you need to support a theory



posted on Jun, 30 2016 @ 06:21 AM
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a reply to: BO XIAN


Did you read the whole article?


Didn't read any of it, I confess. But at my age and experience, I anticipate few surprises.


What's wrong with them? The side effects--some of which can be increased suicide potential, probability.


My point was a general one - about drugs generally, which you seem to believe are the work of the devil. If your concern is in regard to Big Pharma, then I share it.

But I mean - you have headache, you take aspirin, headache goes. Problem solved. Antidepressants provide a similar service for the depressed.

With antidepressants, there are so many on the market that, if one doesn't suit you - in terms of efficacy or side effects - there is bound to be one which does. With a little trial and error, easy enough to find. They don't all have terrible side effects. In fact, the last one I took (citalopram) had no unpleasant effects at all, only pleasant ones.

The suicide risk is due to the fact that they usually take 2 to 4 weeks to start improving mood, yet they improve psychomotor response straightaway. So if the patient is severely depressed and suicidal, but unable to commit suicide due to a sluggish psychomotor response, taking an antidepressant would improve that response and increase the risk of suicide - the drug will NOT make the patient suicidal, merely make the act of carrying it out easier, if that was the intention already lying dormant within them.

This is really about poor management; such an individual should be in hospital and be given a concurrent course of ECT - which is amazingly fast at relieving severe depression.



posted on Jun, 30 2016 @ 07:38 AM
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a reply to: BO XIAN

Thank you once again for bringing new information to light. Hoping that some will find it useful and/or informative at least.
Just want to touch on a few ideas from your article presented.

There are times in our evolution as a cultural species when we need to unlearn what we think we know. We have to move out of the comfort of certainty and into the freeing light of uncertainty. It is from this space of acknowledged unknowing that we can truly grow. From my vantage point, this growth will encompass a sense of wonder – both a curiosity about what symptoms of mental illness may be telling us about our physiology and spirit, as well as a sense of humbled awe at all that we do not yet have the tools to appreciate. For this reason, honoring our co-evolution with the natural world, and sending the body a signal of safety through movement, diet, meditation, and environmental detoxification represents our most primal and most powerful tool for healing.

I completely agree and we should never stop exploring, learning and experimenting to be able to grow or find knowledge in all things that could potentially make this world better for everyone/everything in it.


So, when your doctor says, “You see, look how sick you are, you shouldn’t have stopped that medication,” you should know that the data suggests that your symptoms are withdrawal, not relapse.

This is interesting to me as I am involved with someone who has had many rounds of different drug 'cocktails' and I am now curious as to how the withdrawal from one medication while beginning a new medication (there are some periods between stopping and starting a new one occasionally) affects the length of time before the new medication begins to cause an improvement in mood/pain symptoms.


For instance, in naturalistic studies, unmedicated patients have much shorter episodes, and better long-term prospects, than medicated patients. Several of these studies have found that the average duration of an untreated episode of major depression is 12–13 weeks.

What a painfully long amount of time for someone to suffer. In essence, what I am understanding from the statement is that, are they saying that in 12-13 weeks if the person survives that length of time that the depression will just vanish? Perhaps I'm not reading/comprehending it properly. If someone is in a dire/critical state how would they be able to cope or survive for 3 + months? If their situation is coupled with pain/psychosis then I think it's unforgivable to not search for anything, drugs included, that will alleviate that crisis somewhat to get at least through the time.

The person that I spoke of, above, has not left her house in 41 days except once and that was a very quick trip fraught with much stress and anxiety and led to the administration of a PRN Benzo and three days in bed.
I'm not sure that this person would survive without the medications at this point and with therapy not being an option I suppose it (the medication) is part of a life support system.
Another interesting statement in the article, IMO, is that a severe bout of depression (untreated) can/usually only last 12 weeks or so. This isn't true in my loved one's situation. It had been much longer than that. And when finally confronted and realized it was at such a state that medication/tests were really the only option. Depression and psychosis can be masked by someone clever enough. My concern for sufferers is if the psychological (e.g. psychosis)/physical problems that generate the depression aren't alleviated or healed somehow I'm not sure that the depression won't be a lifelong struggle and therefore the medications become assuredly a life support system that one would never be able to unplug from. And if the medications can, somehow, keep the person alive and eventually allow them to reintegrate into society as a happy (as much as can be expected) and productive person then they are really worth trying especially if therapies are not an option.

Thanks in advance for reading, Bo!



posted on Jun, 30 2016 @ 08:02 AM
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originally posted by: BO XIAN

originally posted by: rickymouse
What they are doing is trying to treat the symptoms. They don't want to cure the disease. Been studying these medicines and they go about it in a roundabout way, creating medicines to alter enzymes instead of just telling people how to fix it themselves. You can't patent natural plants or food chemistry that already exists.

Many times the dietary changes needed to fix the problem is not much. But some people won't change anything, they would rather take a pill than have to change anything.


WELL PUT. AGREED.

And all the more so with the proven TREATMENT OF CHOICE: Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. It takes work to rewire one's brain. Dogged work. But it's lastingly successful with NO negative side effects.


You can balance the neurochemicals by balancing copper in the body. Too much good chocolates can make you real happy initially but they can cause you to have too much copper. Copper is needed in processing tyramines so it can lead to elevated neurochemicals and an imbalance. Moderate amounts of copper are necessary, too much is no good. Also low magnesium levels can lower our ability to moderate the neurochemicals and copper and magnesium are competitive, both are often in chocolate but copper gets absorbed first.

This is just one situation that can occur. Other imbalances can occur. Also the imbalance does not have to negatively effect people so badly, but we live in a society filled with stress everywhere and that is not good. Attitude is important when dealing with depression. It can help a lot. Training the mind to deal with minor imbalances does work. Therapy helps with that.

If hormone levels aren't right, it can also lead to anxiety or depression. They moderate things too. Most hormones are oil based, restricting fats in the diet can cause these problems to occur. Coconut oil is a good calming chemistry and in moderation it is very good for balancing things. Real butter, preferably grass fed or pasture grazed is good too. Even whole milk, again pasture grazed or more naturally fed with little added hormones or hormone producing grains is good. Some people may even benefit by regular milk instead of grass fed if it helps balance things. Milk also contains opiate peptides which make us feel calmer. So does wheat. Some people need these things and shouldn't avoid them, others have problems with them.

Identifying triggers is essential, especially if asthma symptoms are present. Asthma and metabolic intolerances can cause depression because of the constant triggers in the diet. We can learn to eliminate things we are metabolically intolerant to to make things run good. We need to get more aware of how things effect our bodies.

There will always be some people who actually need meds to correct things but most people can learn to help themselves with awareness, education on possible triggers, and therapy to learn how to deal with things better.



posted on Jun, 30 2016 @ 11:42 AM
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a reply to: thomadom

Rushing at the moment . . . back later.

I think you have misconstrued some of my assertions.

Cheers.



posted on Jun, 30 2016 @ 04:02 PM
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a reply to: BO XIAN

No, psychology pissed in my apple juice.

Psychology is human observation of human thinking and behaviour. Human thinking is flawed therefore psychology is flawed.

Psychology says its bad to be depressed, I say it is health in moderation. If David had not been depressed, we wouldn't have all those beautiful Psalms. The question is, what can you learn from depression.

That is why it needs to be sorted out by the individual. In most cases, involving other people will complicate or enable depression. Either seek the answers from God, or find your own solutions. Personally I prefer God.

And yes, I get depressed often.



posted on Jun, 30 2016 @ 08:15 PM
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a reply to: AlongCamePaul

Sounds like a bleak perspective, to me.

I'd rather cling to the one:

"I came that you might have LIfe and that more abundantly [and eternally]."

Because of HIS RESURRECTION, Hope is eternal and on a good foundation.



posted on Jun, 30 2016 @ 08:16 PM
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a reply to: tikbalang

Good points.

I have been trying to get more of the Macha tea--not cheap! As other teas have fluoride in them. Sigh.



posted on Jun, 30 2016 @ 08:43 PM
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originally posted by: thomadom
a reply to: BO XIAN

I understand your points i just disagree with how you have come to your conclusion.


I'm skeptical that you have much understanding of how I have come to my conclusions at all. I'm not sure I could articulate it myself beyond tons of reading over decades and tons of interpersonal contact and assessment. The resulting gestalt is what it is.



I believe you are missing vital factors in your research and am trying to stop you from making blanket statements which may or do not apply to all cases.


I don't recall saying anything close to believing that one size fits all. I've never believed that one size fits all about much of anything. Assumptions about me are quite often quite wrong.



You are very good at avoiding answering my questions and following them up with unrelated evidence that really does not prove or disprove anything it just highlights personal experiences.


Haven't been consciously avoiding any of your questions. Give me the ones you think I've avoided, again, please.

Yeah, I emphasize personal experience a lot. I KNOW a LOT about my personal experiences . . . as well as to what degree they are likely generalizable to others and other situations.



What i want is good hard facts. Since doctors can't agree on what causes mental illnesses why do you then disagree with or ignore everything i say like you have conclusive prove that what you are saying is fact.


If the question is why do I say what I say--I say what I say from decades of study, assessment, evaluation, re-evaluation, etc. etc. with a wide variety of people on two continents. The basics don't change all that much. The basic factors don't change all that much.

I don't recall disagreeing with "everything" you say. I encourage you to avoid allowing your own RAD factors to color your perceptions THAT much.

As to wanting good hard facts . . . the articles in the OP provided a fair amount. I've stated a fair amount. A lot of them are self-evident. As to providing you with a ton of research studies, I'm not all that motivated to do that. The truth is out there for those who genuinely seek it.

However, you are quite welcome to disagree . . . to believe whatever your heart desires to believe. I may or may not be silent in response.



And i didn't ask about CBT i asked if your studies as a whole reflected our diverse cultures, experiences and environment? If not then you are making assumptions only.


I doubt many shrinks have had as much experience in as many diverse contexts and cultures as I have. I'd guess less than 15% and probably a lot less. And, certainly the research studies I've read have covered the waterfront from the USA, Canada, Australia, Hong Kong, Taiwan, China, Europe etc.

But hey, you are welcome to continue your assumptions about such things.




. . .
I worry about the future of science if conjecture and personal beliefs are all the evidence you need to support a theory


Then perhaps you might lessen your conjectures and assumptions about me?

Sigh.



posted on Jun, 30 2016 @ 08:52 PM
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originally posted by: CJCrawley

Didn't read any of it, I confess. But at my age and experience, I anticipate few surprises.


I know that feeling well. LOL.



My point was a general one - about drugs generally, which you seem to believe are the work of the devil.


Welllllllllllll, drugs and music were his two MAIN strong points. Exactly how is unclear but it is clear that those two things were big on his list of abilities, knowledge and skills. And our era is certainly plenty of a demonstration of that fact.



If your concern is in regard to Big Pharma, then I share it.


That IS a huge part of the main message of the OP and the reason for the thread.



But I mean - you have headache, you take aspirin, headache goes. Problem solved. Antidepressants provide a similar service for the depressed.

With antidepressants, there are so many on the market that, if one doesn't suit you - in terms of efficacy or side effects - there is bound to be one which does. With a little trial and error, easy enough to find. They don't all have terrible side effects. In fact, the last one I took (citalopram) had no unpleasant effects at all, only pleasant ones.

The suicide risk is due to the fact that they usually take 2 to 4 weeks to start improving mood, yet they improve psychomotor response straightaway. So if the patient is severely depressed and suicidal, but unable to commit suicide due to a sluggish psychomotor response, taking an antidepressant would improve that response and increase the risk of suicide - the drug will NOT make the patient suicidal, merely make the act of carrying it out easier, if that was the intention already lying dormant within them.

This is really about poor management; such an individual should be in hospital and be given a concurrent course of ECT - which is amazingly fast at relieving severe depression.


I understand your valid points. And they might carry the day with some patients, for me.

However, in general . . . I think the meds have far too many drawbacks generally and for most people in most situations.

I'm still fiercely against ECT. I think that's like treating a mosquito bite with an amputation . . . or . . . a need for more iron in the blood with an IV of molten iron. The brain is just far tooooo delicate, to me, to be so wholesale and harshly zapping it regardless of the advances in the procedure. I realize that's an "old fashioned" perspective. I'm sticking with it.

All the more so given the effectiveness of Cognitive Behavioral Therapy with a wide range of patients.



posted on Jun, 30 2016 @ 09:06 PM
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originally posted by: TNMockingbird
I completely agree and we should never stop exploring, learning and experimenting to be able to grow or find knowledge in all things that could potentially make this world better for everyone/everything in it.


Agreed!


So, when your doctor says, “You see, look how sick you are, you shouldn’t have stopped that medication,” you should know that the data suggests that your symptoms are withdrawal, not relapse.

.

TAGS ARE GIVING ME FITS . . . sooooo . . .

BEGIN TN MOCKINGBIRD QUOTE:

This is interesting to me as I am involved with someone who has had many rounds of different drug 'cocktails' and I am now curious as to how the withdrawal from one medication while beginning a new medication (there are some periods between stopping and starting a new one occasionally) affects the length of time before the new medication begins to cause an improvement in mood/pain symptoms.

END TN MOCKINGBIRD QUOTE

I think that IS a very important issue to try and get a very good handle on.



For instance, in naturalistic studies, unmedicated patients have much shorter episodes, and better long-term prospects, than medicated patients. Several of these studies have found that the average duration of an untreated episode of major depression is 12–13 weeks.

.

BEGIN TN MOCKINGBIRD QUOTE:

What a painfully long amount of time for someone to suffer. In essence, what I am understanding from the statement is that, are they saying that in 12-13 weeks if the person survives that length of time that the depression will just vanish? Perhaps I'm not reading/comprehending it properly. If someone is in a dire/critical state how would they be able to cope or survive for 3 + months? If their situation is coupled with pain/psychosis then I think it's unforgivable to not search for anything, drugs included, that will alleviate that crisis somewhat to get at least through the time.

END TN MOCKINGBIRD QUOTE

Those are certainly fitting, reasonable concerns.

I think it might depend on what we mean by "dire/critical state" . . . But in general, I agree with you.

All the more so for folks without close loved ones; people who live alone etc.

For those with a support group, I think it is worth ramping up the personal support and training the whole social network in how to help the patient rewire their stinking thinking.

And, to remove other negative people who are downer sorts of people--to keep them away from the depressed person.

And, to insure that there are up-beat, overcoming people who are also good at empathy and compassion--insure those kinds of people are in the daily life of the depressed person, where at all workable.

I'd probably also insist on watching a long list of comedy movies with the person.

I'd play with them in the park . . . Take them for outings in nature . . . lavish them with healthy affection as much as tolerated by them . . . do every thing I could to fill a lot more their mostly empty "love buckets."


BEGIN TN MOCKINGBIRD QUOTE:

The person that I spoke of, above, has not left her house in 41 days except once and that was a very quick trip fraught with much stress and anxiety and led to the administration of a PRN Benzo and three days in bed.
I'm not sure that this person would survive without the medications at this point and with therapy not being an option I suppose it (the medication) is part of a life support system.

END TN MOCKINGBIRD QUOTE

Sounds like you are probably quite right on such scores.

Nevertheless, if there are 3-4 people who could read up on dealing with anxiety attacks etc. . . . and who would relate to her day in and day out for 4-6 months accordingly, it could have a significant impact for good on her life. That's a BIG if, I realize.


BEGIN TN MOCKINGBIRD QUOTE:

Another interesting statement in the article, IMO, is that a severe bout of depression (untreated) can/usually only last 12 weeks or so. This isn't true in my loved one's situation. It had been much longer than that. And when finally confronted and realized it was at such a state that medication/tests were really the only option.

END TN MOCKINGBIRD QUOTE

There are certainly plenty of cases like that. And they seem to be increasing in number and severity as our world implodes in horrific terms and chaos and raw evil.


BEGIN TN MOCKINGBIRD QUOTE:

Depression and psychosis can be masked by someone clever enough. My concern for sufferers is if the psychological (e.g. psychosis)/physical problems that generate the depression aren't alleviated or healed somehow I'm not sure that the depression won't be a lifelong struggle and therefore the medications become assuredly a life support system that one would never be able to unplug from. And if the medications can, somehow, keep the person alive and eventually allow them to reintegrate into society as a happy (as much as can be expected) and productive person then they are really worth trying especially if therapies are not an option.

END TN MOCKINGBIRD QUOTE:

I would, reluctantly, have to AGREE.

Thanks for your kind words and earnest comments and questions. Cheers.

edit on 30/6/2016 by BO XIAN because: fits with the tags



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