Guess how many welfare recipients tested positive in Michigan Gov. Rick Snyder’s drug test?

a reply to: tothetenthpower

Guns & Welfare are not equatable topics Neo.

Sure they are.

Different faces of the same issue.

The 4th.

originally posted by: introvert
Many of the people that recieve welfare are the working poor.

They work, but do not have the skills or training to get well-paying jobs that can support families.

To say they lack work ethic is just as wrong as testing them for drugs.

Then the state should offer training instead of handouts. Pretty simple solution.

(yes, I know that some are incapable of working most jobs, but I'm discussing the people you cite above)

And I don't care if they all come up positive all of the time--I think it's still a good idea, and if people want to pretend that it's a racist or bigoted thing to do, I just really don't care. Anyone who is receiving cash to subsidize their livelihood on my tax dime should at least be willing to show that they are a well-functioning human not addicted to or using illegal drugs (for which my tax dime would be subsidizing).

I was subject to drug testing when I was in the military. I'm subject to drug testing at my job. I don't see what the big deal is.

Of course, having worked the legal side of things (JAG Corps) in the military, I also know how easy it is for people to falsify a drug test. I'd really like to know the specifics on how the test is conducted.

a reply to: SlapMonkey

Then the state should offer training instead of handouts. Pretty simple solution.

Not really.

Training and education takes time. What are they going to do in the meantime to put food on the table or pay for a place to live?

I agree that we should provide training and education, which is done in many parts of the country, but I believe we can also provide some assistance to help them in other ways until they are able to get on their feet.

I think the trick in actually advancing in this arena isn't in education, or better testing standards, but in creating a system that enables and encourages self-sufficiency. This can be done using technology and automation, and in the end, would allow for much clearer discernment as well as a stronger society.

The issue then becomes how this would change our entire society, and if we would be capable of growing with such change.

I haven't seen anything that would suggest this capability, so it would seem the cure would be worse than the disease in a sense.

So, in essence, anything that would actually be a systemic change for the better might end up highlighting our inadequacies. Its a tough situation to actually solve and correct.

I have personally witnessed how seemingly well intentioned, "status quo," strategies completely screw good people over, but I think that might just be who we are, for now.

a reply to: GraffikPleasure

Most drug tests don't make you walk into the bathrooms naked... Plus we are talking about government workers testing welfare recipients here. Not some high speed top secret security clearance drug test. They are going to do a quick pat down to make sure you have nothing in your pockets then make you go into a bathroom by your self and pee. Just like a drug test for a new job.

Detoxing liquid is just a masking liquid. It's rather ineffective and can be easily tested for. Plus it only works while it is in your system.

originally posted by: introvert

originally posted by: eXia7
What they should really be testing all welfare recipients of working age for is work ethic. Then we might see where the real problem is.

Many of the people that recieve welfare are the working poor.

They work, but do not have the skills or training to get well-paying jobs that can support families.

To say they lack work ethic is just as wrong as testing them for drugs.

I see a lot of complaining from people about not making enough money... I was one of them.. until I started my own business in the service industry. I'm making 5x as much as I've ever made, and I did it all in 4 years... and I'm 29..

a reply to: introvert

I'm not advocating an abrupt transition, and maybe even a work-study program where they still receive some amount of welfare, but must be undertaking the training and on level to complete it.

There is no easy, one-size-fits-all solution to this issue, and I'm certainly not going to pretend that I have all of the answers, but for those who are able-bodied and able-minded, this seems like a perfectly fine solution that at least leads to a possibility that they will get out of the system instead of remain in it and suckle at the teat of government for an indefinite time period.

originally posted by: eXia7

originally posted by: introvert

originally posted by: eXia7
What they should really be testing all welfare recipients of working age for is work ethic. Then we might see where the real problem is.

Many of the people that recieve welfare are the working poor.

They work, but do not have the skills or training to get well-paying jobs that can support families.

To say they lack work ethic is just as wrong as testing them for drugs.

I see a lot of complaining from people about not making enough money... I was one of them.. until I started my own business in the service industry. I'm making 5x as much as I've ever made, and I did it all in 4 years... and I'm 29..

Congratulations, but I'm sorry to inform you that your personal story does not address the overall issue.

a reply to: SlapMonkey

That seems reasonable.

a reply to: SlapMonkey

Well I hope you have a plan to lower corperate taxes and incentive bussiness to provide cost of living based jobs.

Cause as it stands many poor people live in cities where industry left to go over seas.

So there actually are not enough self sustaining jobs for everybody.

We have conservatively speaking 8.3 million unemployed and 109 million on wellfare for 6.8 million open jobs available many of which don't pay cost of living.

originally posted by: introvert

originally posted by: eXia7

originally posted by: introvert

originally posted by: eXia7
What they should really be testing all welfare recipients of working age for is work ethic. Then we might see where the real problem is.

Many of the people that recieve welfare are the working poor.

They work, but do not have the skills or training to get well-paying jobs that can support families.

To say they lack work ethic is just as wrong as testing them for drugs.

I see a lot of complaining from people about not making enough money... I was one of them.. until I started my own business in the service industry. I'm making 5x as much as I've ever made, and I did it all in 4 years... and I'm 29..

Congratulations, but I'm sorry to inform you that your personal story does not address the overall issue.

Actually, it does. The point of my story is to stop whining about being poor and think outside of the box. I came from nothing, and continue to grow as a person knowing that I'm creating my OWN future. Not relying on somebody to give me a hand out.

It's about making good decisions in life, instead of squandering your life away at a minimum wage job and never trying to improve. Humans are creatures of habit, and once people get in the habit of doing the minimum, then that will be all they are capable of their entire life.

ETA:
You have to get out of a 9-5 mentality if you plan on getting out of poverty.

a reply to: eXia7

Great I did all that too.

However that just isn't reality for everybody.

Nor is using your own circumstance useful in determining how everybody can do something . It gets a little deeper than that

originally posted by: luthier
a reply to: eXia7

Great I did all that too.

However that just isn't reality for everybody.

Not is using your own circumstance useful in determining how everybody can do something . It gets a little deeper than that

If you say so.

America is land of the excuses. Learn a trade.. there are tons of jobs hiring people willing to work.. I mean what else can you do other than complain? If people didn't care about wasting 3 months of their paychecks on big screen TV's or the latest iphone, or spend it boozing up or just straight up wasting it, then I might see your point.

a reply to: eXia7

Actually I just posted it.

There are 6.8 million jobs and the most conservative estimate of unemployed people is 8.3 million.

109 million. men Woman and children are on welfare.

The numbers are the numbers. They don't care about excuses

Learn a trade ? Like carpentry that is over run with illegal aliens working without rights for less than Min wage?

I make guitars and do sound engineering. But I also was a remodelling carpenter for about 20 years. So don't preach to me.

You just haven't actually examined the economic reality. Your using what you think of as common sense but it doesn't reflect reality on the ground.

originally posted by: luthier
a reply to: eXia7

Actually I just posted it.

There are 6.8 million jobs and the most conservative estimate of unemployed people is 8.3 million.

109 million. men Woman and children are on welfare.

The numbers are the numbers. They don't care about excuses

Learn a trade ? Like carpentry that is over run with illegal aliens working without rights for less than Min wage?

I make guitars and do sound engineering. But I also was a remodelling carpenter for about 20 years. So don't preach to me.

You just haven't actually examined the economic reality. Your using what you think of as common sense but it doesn't reflect reality on the ground.

So what kind of jobs do you propose? Manufacturing? Replaced by robots. Customer Service? Replaced by robots. Agriculture? Replaced by mechanized equipment and soon robots. What else is there other than finding a niche and making money?

It's hard for me to be like everybody else and feign sympathy when I've busted my # to succeed. I don't do the bleeding heart woe is me thing, I grew out of that mentality at 25..

a reply to: eXia7

Thats great.

I busted my arse as a carpenter had to pay 100k worth of legal fees to get custody of my kids and am debt free today and have niche bussinesses.

I feel compassion that has nothing to do with being a liberal. I am a staunch libertarian and have always voted that way. Also a former philosophy student so maybe that has something to do with having thought through some of this.

The jobs I propose have to do with space exploration, medical research, software development, and educationally trying to get people to take care of themselves possibly grow portions of their own food. Learn to fix and repair your own items

Basically people will have to learn to take care of their domestic lives without purchasing goods if we keep on this path.

It's all made up anyway. The deer I enjoy eating seem o figure out how to live without an ATM card.

a reply to: tothetenthpower

While I realize most on welfare aren't drug users/abusers I do have a question about your source. It mentions only $300 was spent so far and that there haven't been any positives. $300 sounds like one test to me. It's pretty dangerous to test 1/1000 of the sample, extrapolate that to all 1000, and then extrapolate that to the general population. Imagine if the opposite had happened and they managed to pick the 1 in 1000 that actually was using drugs. Just think of the headlines.

originally posted by: luthier
a reply to: eXia7

The jobs I propose have to do with space exploration, medical research, software development, and educationally trying to get people to take care of themselves possibly grow portions of their own food. Learn to fix and repair your own items

Basically people will have to learn to take care of their domestic lives without purchasing goods if we keep on this path.

It's all made up anyway. The deer I enjoy eating seem o figure out how to live without an ATM card.

I agree with your pie in the sky attitude, but my question is... who is going to pay for all of this? And are people really ambitious enough to even care? Do people even care now? What will make people care about reality instead of living some pipe dream?

a reply to: eXia7

It's not a pie in the sky attitude to look at the numbers and know there are about 2.5 million unemployed people than jobs available (prob triple in reality I am using the most conservative estimate).

The writing is on the wall.

In order to generate a better bussiness enviornment we have to lower corperate taxes and simplify the system so they can actually collect the proper amount of taxes.

On the incentive area you may offer major tax breaks for businesses to open in tougher inner city areas and include the policing increase to protect the property. Most poor areas don't have enough cops anyway. (Especially ones who aren't corrupt like chicago).

It's more about reforming the beauracracy mess. We won't touch the tax code because it's a massive undertaking but it's also dragging us down with waste.

For instance the whole basic income is often suggested by both conservatives and liberals.

You get rid of all benefits much of the irs and give people 12k a year in basically their taxes back. Every adult. So if a group of crack heads want to rent a house and cheat the system they can abuse the system I suppose but if you want to invest in some new vans for your company you may be able to. Or say go to school for some efficiency training classes.

BI is a complicated explanation but look up the libertarian examination of it if your interested in alternative safety nets and reparations for injustice. Say you are wrongly convicted of a crime. That 12k could go along way to cover missed work days while at trial or pay for someone better than a public defender.

Anyway I digress into philosophy.

www.libertarianism.org...

originally posted by: TheRedneck
I graduated high school with a three-year certificate in drafting; my parents couldn't afford college. I worked 6 years at the local nuclear plant, several promotions, good money, etc. I built a house, bought a car, went into debt, worked diligently at a job I hated, and then the economy went bust.

Your story is pretty familiar but I see your mistakes right here. On a moderate wage, you probably weren't bringing in enough money to buy land and a house or a car, and you went into debt. No one I ever speak to agrees with me on these things but if you can't pay for a car in cash, you can't afford it. If you can't fully pay off your home within 18 months of purchase you can't afford it.

Of course, if we all lived by those metrics almost no one would own a car or a home and so everyone ignores them, and buys items that incomes haven't kept up with the cost of to ensure people can comfortable purchase.

And debt is awful, I've got a little bit myself these days (after managing to go a decade debt free) and it keeps me up at night. Debt is just a way to ensure you have less in the future in exchange for having more now. Having a healthy savings is king, everyone hates savings because the money just sits there and barely accrues in value if it does at all but the power of savings is when you would otherwise go into debt. Savings is 0% APR but a credit card is 15% or sometimes even 30%... having that cash on hand rather than debt starts to look pretty attractive then.

I finally collapsed, physically and mentally. I lost the business, my income, and for a while, my sanity. I went into clinical depression for 5 long years

The other mistake, you worked to exhaustion. I fully understand where you were coming from... we have a culture of working hard, never refusing work, I'm sure you had a need for the money, and you probably really liked the paychecks you were pulling in. It's very important in life though I'm learning to have a work/life balance. The occasional 12 hour day is healthy but 80 hours for weeks on end aren't. If you don't pace yourself in life, you'll burn out and probably spend far more time recovering.

Slow and steady wins the race, and I say that from experience. I've got 4 degrees right now, and I'm working on a fifth. I literally worked myself sick for one of them and my current school schedule is extremely demanding, in fact last year I worked myself sick again and got hospitalized for a week and a half in the middle of the semester. I only put up with it because it's one of the top schools in the country for my program and there's something of a pride issue at stake, only 8% of people who start the program graduate and I want to prove I'm one of the 8%.

But even still, I know better and once I'm done there are certain job stipulations that I will and won't do. Not just because working too much reduces that quality of life that a job is supposed to bring you, but because I know my limits. I imagine that at this point having gone to the breaking point several times you know your limits too. In my opinion it's best to work inside those limits rather than break them.