The Genesis Paradox

originally posted by: birdxofxprey
But Eve couldn't have known that disobedience was evil.

Yes she could.
If she knew that evil existed, then she could know that something is evil. The text does NOT say that she did not know evil existed. The text does NOT say that she did not know there was a difference.
This whole paradox is artificially created by an interpretation of the expression "knowing good and evil" which you have adopted for the sake of making the paradox.
Once you drop that unnecessary interpretation, the paradox disappears.

originally posted by: DISRAELI

originally posted by: birdxofxprey
But Eve couldn't have known that disobedience was evil.

Yes she could.
If she knew that evil existed, then she could know that something is evil. The text does NOT say that she did not know evil existed. The text does NOT say that she did not know there was a difference.
This whole paradox is artificially created by an interpretation of the expression "knowing good and evil" which you have adopted for the sake of making the paradox.
Once you drop that unnecessary interpretation, the paradox disappears.

...but Dis...What IS 'the necessary interpretation'?

...and 'necessary' for what?

Å99

originally posted by: akushla99
.but Dis...What IS 'the necessary interpretation'?

I'm not claiming any "necessary" interpretation.
The alternative to "unnecessary" does not have to be "necessary". as someone trained in formal logic could probably explain to you in more technical language.
Many people in America think that gun-control laws are unnecessary, but it does not follow that they think some other laws are "necessary" in their place.

Having got that verbal quibble out of the way, I can repeat the interpretation I offered in my first post;

The simple answer to this paradox is to understand "knowing good and evil" as a Hebraism for "knowing where the difference lies, being able to draw the boundary line between them".

My premise was that before the Fall they were not doing this for themselves but allowing God to do it.
Judging what is right and what is wrong is very much a God's province, and that is why replacing God's judgement with their own judgement is supposed to make them "like gods".


A memory of past reading is emerging; I think you will find that the true logical opposite of "necessary" is "contingent".

originally posted by: DISRAELI

originally posted by: akushla99
.but Dis...What IS 'the necessary interpretation'?

I'm not claiming any "necessary" interpretation.
The alternative to "unnecessary" does not have to be "necessary". as someone trained in formal logic could probably explain to you in more technical language.
Many people in America think that gun-control laws are unnecessary, but it does not follow that they think some other laws are "necessary" in their place.

Having got that verbal quibble out of the way, I can repeat the interpretation I offered in my first post;

The simple answer to this paradox is to understand "knowing good and evil" as a Hebraism for "knowing where the difference lies, being able to draw the boundary line between them".

My premise was that before the Fall they were not doing this for themselves but allowing God to do it.
Judging what is right and what is wrong is very much a God's province, and that is why replacing God's judgement with their own judgement is supposed to make them "like gods".

...I see...

So, based on this 'interpretation' - and let me be clear - I agree that certain 'interpretations' fit quite well with the greater story arc, culminating of course, with Big Boss against its created foe (?!)...but include some 'troublesome interpretations', and it becomes a slightly different 'story' - no saprise there Dis, which is why the paradox can be labelled 'unnecessary' simply because it would not fulfill the greater narrative.

And, yours (or anyone elses) 'interpretation' of whose domain 'what' is - only really amounts to a bias that legitimises the greater story arc...so any 'interpretation' is a valid one - unless you really loved the movie, and wouldn't want to see it end any other way...

Yes Dis...contingent is a very good word to use, given what I've written.

Å99

Many people have taught that it was Eve who led man to knowledge and that the God of the garden was keeping the Adam in an ignorant state of obedience.

Adam and Eve were then sent to a previously populated earth as when Cain was banished he was aware of the existence of people besides the "first family" so to speak.

Such a twisted and mysterious tale.

The Zohar tells it best and wherever else Lilith is mentioned (Talmud, etc.).

And the Egyptian Apocrypha.

a reply to: akushla99
There is also the common-sense point that this account had a human writer whose intention would have been to portray the God he believed in.
He would not have been intending to portray his God as "evil", so any interpretation which has that result has to be based on a misunderstanding of what he was trying to say.

a reply to: DISRAELI

Not so. The Israelites have held trials with Adonai as defendant in fairly recent history and used the Bible as evidence and found him guilty of evil.

And the story has two authors from two periods when he definitely was considered evil and good. So he was portrayed as both

originally posted by: birdxofxprey

originally posted by: Matrixsurvivor

OMG....you are awesome....and I'm assuming a woman.

I'm not female, but it's quite a generous compliment. Thanks.

Oh...then I'm even MORE impressed, lol. There are very few...and I mean VERY few men out there who see it as you do. Unless, they're gay, lol. Seriously, I'm new to this forum. Been a lurker for a year, but recently joined. I'm not sure how to do the flag/star thingamajiggy, but you definitely get a whoooole bunch in my book.

a reply to: Disraeli

You had to kill tons of animals just to keep him from destroying you in the Israelites view.

A God who orders death for gathering wood. Just because it's the Sabbath.

If they didn't think they were portraying a God as evil as he is good or worse, they were psychotic.

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: akushla99
There is also the common-sense point that this account had a human writer whose intention would have been to portray the God he believed in.
He would not have been intending to portray his God as "evil", so any interpretation which has that result has to be based on a misunderstanding of what he was trying to say.

Just for the record...I do believe in the concept of an Omni/everything, almighty Source/God - there IS no wriggle room in that concept that allows for a scenario like the one that appears at the end of the little golden book...and I would like it explained to me, given that the first few chapters of Jenny set the scene, that results at the end of the story, how anyone who truly believes in Almightiness, can shoehorn an 'interpretation' that amounts to NOT believing Almightiness - Original Sin is the premise upon which the story arc revolves - human wrote whatever they wrote, adding here and there to support the thrust of the first few chapters...but then, some would say they were 'inspired' to write it...

I never said God was evil, I never said anyone was evil - yet here are the apologists saying exactly that, supporting the myth of Original Sin upon which this discussion is based.

Å99

originally posted by: Matrixsurvivor

originally posted by: birdxofxprey

originally posted by: Matrixsurvivor

OMG....you are awesome....and I'm assuming a woman.

I'm not female, but it's quite a generous compliment. Thanks.

Oh...then I'm even MORE impressed, lol. There are very few...and I mean VERY few men out there who see it as you do. Unless, they're gay, lol. Seriously, I'm new to this forum. Been a lurker for a year, but recently joined. I'm not sure how to do the flag/star thingamajiggy, but you definitely get a whoooole bunch in my book.

I'm not gay, but I take that as a compliment as well.
Now that we have the misogynistic mythology exposed,
perhaps the anti-gay elements should be next?

originally posted by: akushla99
I never said God was evil, I never said anyone was evil - yet here are the apologists saying exactly that, supporting the myth of Original Sin upon which this discussion is based.

Posts like the opening post are created by people who want to use the Eden story to argue that God is evil in some way. That's what I was getting at.

The whole point of the doctrine of Original Sin is that it is presenting humanity as fundamentally evil. As I've observed before, you only have to look around at the kind of world that humanity has created to grasp that something has gone wrong.
The theme of the last book of the Bible- indeed, the running theme of the whole Bible- is the way that problem is to be tackled.

a reply to: DISRAELI

"The theme of the last book of the Bible- indeed, the running theme of the whole Bible- is the way that problem is to be tackled." Quote DISRAELI

...which is exactly what I've been saying - hence 'unnecessary interpretations' (or contingent, if you like)...I think you know what's being said...

Å99

originally posted by: birdxofxprey

originally posted by: Matrixsurvivor

originally posted by: birdxofxprey

originally posted by: Matrixsurvivor

OMG....you are awesome....and I'm assuming a woman.

I'm not female, but it's quite a generous compliment. Thanks.

Oh...then I'm even MORE impressed, lol. There are very few...and I mean VERY few men out there who see it as you do. Unless, they're gay, lol. Seriously, I'm new to this forum. Been a lurker for a year, but recently joined. I'm not sure how to do the flag/star thingamajiggy, but you definitely get a whoooole bunch in my book.

I'm not gay, but I take that as a compliment as well.
Now that we have the misogynistic mythology exposed,
perhaps the anti-gay elements should be next?

Sounds good to me. One of my best friends is gay, and loves god and others more than most Christians I know. He's one of the catalysts (besides animals) that showed me so much of what I thought was "right", wasn't. I know I'm sarcastic and all, but after all I've seen and been through, plus realized, religiosity makes me downright ill.
This world is so messed up and I'm so tired of the human race being blamed for it. I'm so sick of the judgment on those who the god in the bible says are not acceptable (and women aren't real high up on his list either).
A lot has transpired in my life over the past several years. I feel free. Not the "I am free in Jesus free"...just free...to think my own thoughts, to love those considered "condemned", to not hurt animals, to not feel like I'm under constant judgment. You know what? If there's "something" out there that actually cares about us (and I'm hoping there is...cause I've experienced him/it/whathaveyou), then it's NOT the biblical god. There may be glimpses of that one through Jesus and other parts in the bible, but what I've found is, there are TWO voices...one good, one straight up twisted and evil, in the said "good book".
Therein lies the polarities and dualisms we see in religion (esp. from the bible itself).

originally posted by: DISRAELI

originally posted by: akushla99
I never said God was evil, I never said anyone was evil - yet here are the apologists saying exactly that, supporting the myth of Original Sin upon which this discussion is based.

Posts like the opening post are created by people who want to use the Eden story to argue that God is evil in some way. That's what I was getting at.

The whole point of the doctrine of Original Sin is that it is presenting humanity as fundamentally evil. As I've observed before, you only have to look around at the kind of world that humanity has created to grasp that something has gone wrong.
The theme of the last book of the Bible- indeed, the running theme of the whole Bible- is the way that problem is to be tackled.

... and this is where belief gets very dangerous in a whole lot of people trying to to live out a self-fulling prophesy when thats exactly the kind of lives people have already lived... self fulfilling cause whew Im saved and touched in places by angels that might be used in a court room trial... so none of this matters im going to heaven anyway cause I believe.

Maybe Wonder Woman will take me to her fortress of solitude... while everyone drinks their kungfu punch on the rocks.

These religous plans are talking about annilating each other... um hellur? Anybody home.

Look beleiveing stuff is cool... trying to destroy all life cause the might be some $h!t is exactly $h!t. Seriously, cut it out someones gonna lose an eye, playing with such dangerous toys as religion taking belief as real.

As a subject to study of earths combined past awesome... all of it when its a subject. When you become subject or a slave to it? No not at all awesome. That is some mind controlled dance an idiot puppet dance.

They way people are taking religion it's like insurance agencies... and you know them sumbitches dont like paying out anything, but boy will they send a bill on time.

Like a good heaven hate farm is there... seriously?!? Dang I hope there's a some zoo keeper in the sky to come cage all these loony monkeys ffs... forget flying spaghetti monster but hopefully he feeds all these starving people, we need a magic zoo keeper and no im not talking about Noah but hey if he shows up and says hey Lt. Dan I bought a boat? Get in that friggin boat please...

That stuff causes peace and happiness and in the end... um we drink the Koolaid right? Yeah cause it gets that $h!t sandwich taste outta yah mouth.

This is the very definition of: "I cant even" if anyone has ever wanted to know, what it's meant.

originally posted by: KingPhilipsiX
a reply to: Disraeli

You had to kill tons of animals just to keep him from destroying you in the Israelites view.

A God who orders death for gathering wood. Just because it's the Sabbath.

If they didn't think they were portraying a God as evil as he is good or worse, they were psychotic.

So true. Why does this god require death of an innocent animal, to even be in his presence? If someone does some ritual and sacrifices an animal (today), we call it satanic. If an orthodox Jew does it, we just say he's honoring his god. Oh, and YHWH wanted animals sacrificed...it was a "sweet smelling aroma" to him that turned away his wrath.
Yet, there are numerous times in the books of the prophets where the prophets condemned these practices. So, which is it? Like I said, there are two voices in the "bible". Or, there were numerous authors who couldn't keep the dang story straight.

a reply to: BigBrotherDarkness

originally posted by: DISRAELI



By Disraeli.....

Posts like the opening post are created by people who want to use the Eden story to argue that God is evil in some way. That's what I was getting at.

Yes, humanity is fundamentally FLAWED. But, let me ask this. How is it there are evil people and there are GOOD people. There are good people who don't even claim Jesus as their savior. There are good people who don't claim to believe in a creator or god. So, how are they good? Didn't Jesus himself say there were righteous people, even before he came on the scene? So, you have JESUS saying there were some who were righteous, BEFORE he was murdered/crucified....and you have Mr. Saul of Tarsus saying there are "none righteous...no not one". So, who ya gonna believe? The Son of Man, or a self proclaimed Pharisee, who was a self proclaimed apostle, who renamed himself Paul? Not to mention that Paul took so many verses out of context from the OT and butchered them to make them say what he wanted them to say, it's ridiculous. Just read your bible. Go to the cross references and read where he get's his OT quotes from, and read them in their context...not how he jacks them up to mean what he wants them to.
But back to the humanity being flawed thing....if it is, then why is it OUR fault!!? We didn't set this ball in motion. God did. Or whoever the heck it was that thought this was a good idea. But, according to PAUL....it's Eve's fault (and Adam's), and the whole of humanity is paying for it. What a load of hooey.

a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

I dont see evil people I see confused people all trying to be happy, stepping on toes like it's beginner square dance night at the local tip and pour.

originally posted by: BigBrotherDarkness
a reply to: Matrixsurvivor

I dont see evil people I see confused people all trying to be happy, stepping on toes like it's beginner square dance night at the local tip and pour.

LOL....I like you, BBD. Been reading your posts, and though they are a little hard to follow, I think I get it (some). Either way, I like your satire.

originally posted by: Matrixsurvivor

originally posted by: KingPhilipsiX
a reply to: Disraeli

You had to kill tons of animals just to keep him from destroying you in the Israelites view.

A God who orders death for gathering wood. Just because it's the Sabbath.

If they didn't think they were portraying a God as evil as he is good or worse, they were psychotic.

So true. Why does this god require death of an innocent animal, to even be in his presence? If someone does some ritual and sacrifices an animal (today), we call it satanic. If an orthodox Jew does it, we just say he's honoring his god. Oh, and YHWH wanted animals sacrificed...it was a "sweet smelling aroma" to him that turned away his wrath.
Yet, there are numerous times in the books of the prophets where the prophets condemned these practices. So, which is it? Like I said, there are two voices in the "bible". Or, there were numerous authors who couldn't keep the dang story straight.

That last statement about multiple authors is even true on the first page of the Bible.

Scholars divide the Torah/Pentateuch between four sources or authors. The Elohistic (pre-YHWH?) Yahwistic, priestly and Deuteronomistic.

After millennia of claiming them the works of Moses it is not even believed by the Catholic Church or in Jewry today.

But some not so scholarly people still believe it.