Orlando Shooting claims of no evidence

originally posted by: HAARPO
The picture that was posted at the bottom of the OP has me scratching my head. Where is the officer's right forearm?

damn, where is it?

a reply to: Stormdancer777

it is there in the video
www.nbcnews.com...

originally posted by: Urantia1111

originally posted by: bknapple32
a reply to: NerdGoddess

Especially when folks attack the victims families as actors. Its reallllly walking a fine line.

THIS is what they are counting on.

It ended up being one of very few "counterarguments" against the avalanche of strange and suspicious circumstances that eventually came to light at SH.

It's a critical facet to the success of these operations.

I agree with that in theory. However, unless you know the person, should one be the 'whistle blower'? Just feels like the person would basically be begging for a ton of false positives.

a reply to: bknapple32

Perhaps a definition of terms is in order here, because "false flag" does not necessarily mean that an event did not happen, but that it was committed by govt agents and blamed on someone else.

According to Wikipedia:

The contemporary term false flag describes covert operations that are designed to deceive in such a way that the operations appear as though they are being carried out by entities, groups, or nations other than those who actually planned and executed them.

Historically, the term "false flag" has its origins in naval warfare where the use of a flag other than the belligerent's true battle flag as a ruse de guerre, before engaging the enemy, has long been accepted

It's very likely that claims of "it never happened" are planted and generated as a common "disinfo" tactic: Make sensational and outrageous claims, make it go viral, then easily debunk those claims, discrediting all related allegations, and shut down discussion altogether. (Not accusing you of that! It's also important to examine and shut down such claims, so your OP is also important.)

I do not doubt this horrible crime happened. But I do doubt that this guy acted alone.

My false flag theory. They have been trying to pass laws for LGBT. They have been trying to pass laws for gun control..... This one event pulls heart strings for both causes.
Then throw in a person of Muslim decent to be the shooter, but make sure he is American born.... Kinda like one judge that burned bridges for Trump recently.... Sit back and wait for Trump to go all anti-muslim then tell everyone the guy was American born and watch more trump supporters bail and the GOP to turn on Trump even more.

Awfully convenient.

originally posted by: bknapple32
a reply to: NerdGoddess

Especially when folks attack the victims families as actors. Its reallllly walking a fine line.

That is going OVER the line.
That is the official stance here on ATS.
Just so everyone knows.

here we go !

what took so long ?

conspiracy enthusiasts last shred of credibility gone in 3....2.....1

a reply to: Stormdancer777

I didn't see the officer in question when viewing that video. I'm sure he has a right forearm, he has a pistol on his hip. Its still a weird picture, though.

a reply to: bknapple32

Why were people that were injured being carried back towards the club in the news video?

originally posted by: Stevenjames15
a reply to: bknapple32

Why were people that were injured being carried back towards the club in the news video?

I'd imagine that emergency services were deployed to the scene, not blocks away. I would also imagine these people as events were unfolding and there was mass hysteria those folks wanted to get as far away as possible until they where either instructed or discovered on their own that help was on the scene.

My best guess.

originally posted by: Asktheanimals

originally posted by: bknapple32
a reply to: NerdGoddess

Especially when folks attack the victims families as actors. Its reallllly walking a fine line.

That is going OVER the line.
That is the official stance here on ATS.
Just so everyone knows.

Completely agree morally and am glad that is the ATS stance... As alluded to in the OP, Ive stayed away for awhile...

a reply to: Brotherman

Also there are reports of folks who were running BACK to Pulse to help their friends... So that could be playing a part of confusion. And again, to people who ask why they are going back, I again say, they are on the opposite side of the street.


I can only assume the implication here is that 'victim's ( I use quotes for the FF perspective) were being brought to the crime scene to make it look as if there are victims. Which is why I say, wouldnt the victims be being carried on the proper side of the street to the club? Going under the FF assumption that is...

So it's safe enough to have the injured being carried from the direction of a police cordon 50 meters away back past the nightclub in the direction of another police cordon 200 meters away? And it's safe enough for someone to be filming this inside the police cordon? But it's not safe enough to send an emergency vehicle down to pick the injured up?

a reply to: butcherguy

There was a chick who was doing a snapchat video when the gunfire started and she didn't seem to be effected by it. I believe she was on the list of dead. I only remember the face because all the "victims" they showed were black or Mexican. Thinking about that, it makes even more sense here that they would show just the minorities.

I've lurked around ATS for much longer than I've been a member. And as member I have yet to ever post. BK, I remember reading your Sandy Hook posts and agree that the amount of not only emotion, but vitriol those threads generated was nothing short of staggering and, in some cases, vile.

It seems as thought this is starting out as a logical discussion about the Orlando shooting which hits very close to home for me as an Orlando resident. The nonsense and ignorance that I'm seeing elsewhere and the tone of this thread is what prompted me to post here. I posted what I'm about to say on another site and was called a shill and full of BS.

Until two years ago I lived two blocks away from Pulse...for ten years I lived there. I'm intimately familiar with the area...I've gotten gas in the 7-11 on the opposite corner, shopped in that Radio Shack across the street, and literally driven that stretch of Orange Ave. thousands of times. I've been inside of that venue, though not in it's current incarnation as Pulse but in it's previous incarnation as Dante's...an italian restaurant and live music venue. I happen to know one of the victims and am one degree removed from several other people who were killed (not known to me personally but friends of close friends of mine) and know a couple of the responding officers from a couple of the different responding agencies. I won't name names or agencies to protect the integrity of their jobs and not put them in even the remotest position for disciplinary action for anything they may tell me as a friend.

I say all of that to say that I patently don't buy into the hoax camp about this OR Sandy Hook (but I'll keep this on topic). I'm on the fence about it being a false flag event...I can see it as a possibility but I'm not sold on it. I do know that someone walked into that nightclub and shot up a bunch of innocents. Whether the motive is as the MSM is reporting or is a deeper conspiracy we'll probably never get undeniable proof of.

As far as the kill ratio goes, I don't think it's beyond the realm of possibility of a single shooter being able to inflict so much damage. The interior of that venue hasn't changed much over the years from what I've been told by friends who've been inside both when it was Dante's and as Pulse. It's small and with 300+ people in there it would be cramped, dark, and loud. That's a lot of soft targets in a concentrated area. From the videos I've seen from both across the street at the 7-11 and from the Snapchat video inside it sounds like, at the rate of fire he was shooting, he'd empty a 30 round magazine in about 14 seconds. At that rate, he'd be able to empty 4 magazines in just over a minute factoring in reload time. Think about the the panic, chaos, and bottleneck of 300+ people scrambling for the couple of exits they new about. I'm not sure how old the folks around ATS are reading this, but I'll reference The Station nightclub fire in Warwick, RI in 2003...100 people dead trying to get out the door. Also think about the fact that many of the patrons probably don't go in and immediately start identifying exits in case of emergency. This is a place where people felt comfortable and safe.

There were reports of a second or even third and fourth gunmen from eyewitnesses. Some witnesses reported hearing shots coming from different directions. This isn't necessarily evidence of multiple perpetrators. There WERE multiple shooters, however...there was the shooter and the police engaging him with return fire. I think that accounts for the reports of fire coming from multiple directions. It certainly reconciles it in my mind.

It's also not hard to envision that the 5.56 round, as a penetrating round, might not be responsible for multiple deaths per single round as I've heard some use to fortify their hoax theory, but certainly could be responsible for a death of one person and injury of another if it were to pass through one victim and strike another in close proximity (if not packed together). At a barrel length of 16inches (per the Sig MCX specs on their website), average 5.56 ammunition would have a bullet velocity of approximately 2,900 ft/s. Fired at close range it's not hard to imagine the probability of one round causing multiple wounds.

As far as the shooter telling a local tv station or 911 dispatcher about there being explosive devices and multiple accomplices or snipers on the roof ready to pick off first responders, of course he would do that. Why wouldn't he try to instill the idea of a larger attack and introduce another level of danger to bluster the fear and panic both to the hostages and the public.

The lack of blood, in my opinion, isn't a huge red flag. If you think about the injured who were able to escape, none of them were mortally wounded. Most of the SERIOUSLY wounded were evacuated after the 5am breach by SWAT. While yet some victims were rescued by police within the first hour or so of the attack. The footage we have of the wounded are, essentially, walking wounded (I know, some are shown being carried...I mean that as a metaphor, not an absolute) who were conscious and at least somewhat ambulatory.

And yes, people are walking toward Pulse nightclub in the footage we've seen. They're on the east side of Orange Ave heading north toward Pulse, but also toward ORMC (Orlando Regional Medical Center) and most likely where ambulances were staging (speculation on my part). There was an enormous police presence at that time and it stands to reason that, without the immediate presence of an ambulance, the police would represent help to panicked and/or injured folks in shock. It's reasonable to consider that if people ran out of that club injured and in a blind panic they may have been disoriented when they exited and when finding themselves safe started helping each other and heading back toward the perceived safety of police and the hospital.

It's also important to note that while Pulse is considered to be downtown, it's about 2 miles away from where all of the downtown nightlife is on Orange Ave. That particular stretch of Orange Ave. isn't very busy at the time of night/early morning when the shooting started. And there certainly isn't the pedestrian traffic you'd see in the downtown proper area where the majority of the bars and night clubs are. It get's considerably busier between 2:30-3a as the club empties and people filter out on their way home or the 7-11 across the street. Last I knew the Wendy's across the street closed at 2am...I'll admit to being a little bit surprised to not see any cell phone video from an employee locking up there if that's still the correct closing time for them. I can't confirm their current operating hours or whether or not employees were even present in the store at that hour.

I know that law enforcement is taking a lot of heat for the 3 hour span of time between the initial shooting and their breach of the back wall at 5am. I can only speculate but it's logical to think in that span of time while the shooter was, at various times, on the phone with 911 dispatchers, a local tv station, police negotiators, texting his wife and posting to Facebook that LEOs were interviewing witnesses, trying to get a feel for the scene inside and where hostages were, studying building plans, and formulating a plan to breach the building, neutralize the threat, and rescue hostages.

HOAX?

Aha.

Man, that sure did not take long.

But then again, if you're willing to believe that they faked the deaths of little kids, then 50 Floridians isn't out of the imagination now is it?

~Tenth

originally posted by: tothetenthpower
HOAX?

Aha.

Man, that sure did not take long.

But then again, if you're willing to believe that they faked the deaths of little kids, then 50 Floridians isn't out of the imagination now is it?

~Tenth

Tenth...

Don't know if that was directed to me or not (no quoted text). Just to be clear, I said that I patently do NOT believe or buy into the hoax theories and I'm open to the idea of it being a false flag. I firmly DO believe that real people died and real people's and families lives changed forever.

-z

a reply to: Zyzxxrd

No of course not, I meant the story in general .

~Tenth

Excerpt from an Orlando Sentinel Article from yesterday: Full article at link.

"Investigators have recovered graphic video footage from security cameras at the Orlando nightclub where a gunman Sunday morning killed 49 people and injured 53 others.

It's not clear how much of the shooting the video shows, but a U.S. law enforcement official on Friday described it as a minute-by-minute replay that shows how cold-blooded the massacre was."

Link to article: www.orlandosentinel.com...

Mods, I'm new to posting here but have read the forums for years. If I've done something incorrectly or against the TOC please let me know.