I'm against socialism, apparently I'm an idiot. Ask me nothing.

originally posted by: TheTory
I would hope not, but that is what socialism has given us this far.

We can talk about India, Venezuela, China, Cuba? Maybe African socialism?

We can talk about social programs and taxes, if you'd like.

I'm pretty sure that is not all it has given you.

Why don't you talk to the guys pushing for it? Of course they will probably want to talk about the Nordic model or other countries with more social programs, even if the taxes are higher, that are far removed from East Germany.

originally posted by: TheTory
a reply to: daskakik

I would hope not, but that is what socialism has given us this far. .

Actually, socialism has been and is one of the major influences on this planet and it continues to be so. It's influence on for example my country (I'm Dutch) has been tremendous and very positive: it brought us better working conditions, better health care, more democracy and less poverty, just to name a few.

As with any system, it can be misused - and it has been misused. That does not say it's not a good system: the fact you can use a hammer to bash in somebodies head does not make the hammer a bad thing.

About your question which system was better: the Eastern German or the Western German system - it all depends. Eastern Germany was the richest socialist state in the world and there was nobody there without a job. You can moan and groan about the quality of some of the jobs, but hey, talk to a burgerflipper. Poverty was eliminated, everybody had decent clothes, housing and food, schools were of good quality (and free), hospitals ditto, child care was excellent and came with cheap / free meals. Recycling was (granted: by neccessity for lack of raw materials) excellent. Many Ossies still believe that there was more solidarity and far less greed in those days.

The reason the Ossies eventually abandoned their state was that it turned into a dictatorship, with glorification of leaders (very anti-socialist: uneqaulity, no solidarity, no dignity). Also, the GDR, though very succesful economically, had to pay high war damages to the USSR, and did not receive any Marshall help. So, they could not "compete" with West Germany. Young people therefore left the GDR, and instead of trying to change the system to a real socialist system, the party decided to fence in the population, which was the final stab in the back of the socialist system.

Socialism is not the Holy Grail, it's merely a step up the ladder towards anarchy. Alas, we are still struggling in a world that needs "leaders" and "flags" and "nations", so not even CLOSE to socialism, let alone communism - don't even mention anarchy..

For what it's worth TC, irrespective of whether I agree with you on any particular point or issue (like most people, I expect we would both agree and disagree on a great many things lol,) I do not condone any harassment, personal attacks, or bothersome private messages directed at you.

The simplest yet apparently most daunting thing humanity could benefit from across the spectrum today would be to simply learn how to listen to one another and TALK about things... just TALK... without everything becoming a contentious drama and fight. Especially online, where somehow the dynamics of socialization seem fundamentally different than in real life.

Once people start harassing and attacking, the discussion has ended and it's just a fight.

Peace.

Oh look, there it is:

"And you must be ready to abandon tired orthodoxies of the left and right and forage for good ideas across the political spectrum. The world will be studying the Nordic model for years to come."

a reply to: allusernamestaken

Source

a reply to: Fishy

I think you need to do some more research on your own on that.

Even in modern time people like Gates and Zuckerberg are donating $100's of millions to "their" causes.

You might not like what they are, but they are giving to them.

en.wikipedia.org...

Most of the major Universities, Hospitals and Museums in the world today had their start this way.

Also many of these put in a sizable % of their wealth into these funds.

originally posted by: DBCowboy
a reply to: deadlyhope

The definition of socialism is government controlling the means of production.

As for getting rid of the 535 bloated parasites infesting congress? Agreed!

Im against Socialism myself, but I don't think the above is accurate, that's the definition of Communism. Socialism is where the government controls the FRUITS of production, ie. taxation. Communism is where the government controls both the fruits and the means.

We haev a "right-wing" government in the UK but we get taxed roughly 50% if everything is taken into account. That's socialism and like it or not we've all been duped into it.

For people who look at some of the good aspects such as health care, I get that, but if I weren't having someone take half my earnings I'm sure I would be able to afford much better quality private healthcare when I needed it and this is the same principal across the board.

a reply to: dismanrc

None of that refutes fishy's statement.

Some food for thought, the amount given by the top 8 in that wiki link wouldn't cover a single year of educational spending in the US.

89.26 Billion < 126.2 billion

a reply to: Dem0nc1eaner

Nope. Socialism is where the government is in charge of production etc. The populace works for the government and get money to spend as they want...after tax. True communism don't have need for money. Socialism is comunism without money. What you are talking about is capitalism with social responsibility by the government.

PS, not even China is truly comunist or socialist. I'm not sure about N Korea.

a reply to: DBCowboy

Yes 110% socialism is just commie lite, If I worked for it, it's mine. I don't want anything handed to me. A thing is only worth what you pay for it. When no one has to pay for a thing it has no value, nobody wants to work for things of no value. That is the problem with socialism, it invariably leads to communism and government overreach, that leads to disenfranchised people who lose the desire to work, no workers, no production, no production, no economy, no economy... well no country. Sure it looks great on paper. It will never work in this funny place called reality.

Not my favorite source but close enough (List of failed socialist states)

a reply to: sycomix

So people are not smart enough to appreciate anything unless there is a price tag on it?

Bet it sounded better when you where hitting keys.

originally posted by: daskakik
a reply to: sycomix

So people are not smart enough to appreciate anything unless there is a price tag on it?

Bet it sounded better when you where hitting keys.

The price is basically arbitrary. Raw materials and energy from the environment are externalities. And the money supply has been growing geometrically since forever. And the new money is distributed arbitrarily in the economy, basically.

originally posted by: WeAreAWAKE
a reply to: hudsonhawk69

DUDE!!!! I WANNA BE THE THREAD KILLER!!!
Great avatar!

PMSL! I haven't killed a thread in ages. It's to time consuming and I'm not that much of an ass hat anymore!!!

Cheers Bud .!.

a reply to: daskakik

I think you may have missed the point, a thing not earned has little value. Think on that for a minute. A gift is one thing, but a thing taken without the choice is theft, a stolen thing reduces value of a thing. A free thing has no value otherwise it wouldn't be free. Socialists take without asking, they are thieves pure and simple.

a reply to: Fishy

Value is not singled down to just money, work and effort also make value. If you put no effort into something and don't work for it, it has no value.

originally posted by: sycomix
I think you may have missed the point, a thing not earned has little value. Think on that for a minute. A gift is one thing, but a thing taken without the choice is theft, a stolen thing reduces value of a thing. A free thing has no value otherwise it wouldn't be free. Socialists take without asking, they are thieves pure and simple.

Well one, often seen, argument is that nothing is free, not free education, healthcare, foodstamps or housing. Think on that for a minute.

Also, all governments take without asking but still people appreciate the quality of life this brings, and its usually at an inflated price so, according to your logic, it has that much more value.