The hushed up southward mass migration of North Europeans

3000-4000 years ago there was a massive southward movement of North Europeans but you don't hear much about it. It is known but only small aspects are discussed to play down the true significance. Fact is around 4000 years ago something happened in northern Europe which lead to a massive evacuation of those lands. Could the volcano in Iceland have something to do with this, a massive eruption, a plague a meteorite hit..who knows but something caused everyone to flee southwards.

India and the Aryans:



India has a caste system but this caste system was introduced around 4000 years ago with the arrival of the Aryans in north India. The Aryans introduced this caste system and placed their offspring at the head of the system called the Brahmins. Brahmins were forbidden to have sexual relations with peoples of lower caste and it was forbidden for lower caste to read or learn the vedas. As the Brahmins of India today are the direct descendent of these Aryans analysis of their dna should reveal some interesting facts about the identity of the ancient Aryans.

As one moves from lower to upper castes, the distance from Asians becomes progressively larger. The distance between Europeans and lower castes is larger than the distance between Europeans and upper castes

Analysis of these data demonstrated that the upper castes have a higher affinity to Europeans than to Asians, and the upper castes are significantly more similar to Europeans than are the lower castes. Collectively, all five datasets show a trend toward upper castes being more similar to Europeans, whereas lower castes are more similar to Asians.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...


It is found that the aryans belonged to R1 haplogroups which has lead some to believe the original homeland of these ancient aryans might have been in the steppe's of Russia/Ukraine where the greatest concentration of haplogroup R1a exists today.

Between 4,000 and 2,000 years ago, intermarriage in India was rampant.

“Prior to about 4000 years ago there was no mixture. After that, widespread mixture affected almost every group in India, even the most isolated tribal groups. And finally, endogamy set in and froze everything in place.” “The fact that every population in India evolved from randomly mixed populations suggests that social classifications like the caste system are not likely to have existed in the same way before the mixture,

But once established, the caste system became genetically effective, the researchers observed. Mixture across groups became very rare.

hms.harvard.edu...

So basically these caste systems were introduced to curb interracial mating by these Aryans, obviously as a means of self preservation and to maintain control in their hands.



Around 4000 years ago pyramid structures started to be built in India with the introduction of Vasstu by its founder Maya danava.

While researching sacred architecture we talked with Ganapati Sthapati, the Senior Architect at the Government College of Architecture and Sculpture in Mahabalipuram, South India. Sthapati informed us that the science of the Vastu Shastra is traceable to at least the year 3000 B.C., if not before. The earliest known master of the Vastu Shastra was Maya Danava, recognized as the founder of the tradition of India's sacred architecture.

gosai.com...

Madam Blavatsky in the Secret doctrine says :

“Romakapura” was in “the West,” certainly, since it was part and parcel of the last continent of Atlantis. And it is equally certain that it is Atlantis, which is assigned in the Hindu Puranas as the birth-place of Asuramaya, “as great a magician as he was an Astrologer and an Astronomer.”

It is interesting to note the pyramids of the Maya in Mesoamerica have been structurally examined and found to conform to the basic layout format subscribed in the vasstu sastra of Maya danava.

China



What of the strange appearance of the mummy's of China ? They are tall, white skinned and often had blond, red hair and blue/green eyes.
Genetic analysis of these Chinese mummy's has shown they belong to haplogroup R1a like the Aryans who invaded India and they appear around the same time as the Aryans appear in India. Among other curious discovery's is that they wore Celtic tartan, the same that is found in Ireland and Scotland.

North Africa


Around 3000-4000 years ago North Africa experienced a flood of Northern Europeans known as the Eurasian backflow. Its curious that the media in general likes to talk about the "out of Africa" movement but is shy when it comes to talking about the "into Africa" movement that occurred around the same time we see the first pyramids being built.

East Africans have a quarter of DNA from Western Eurasians, the University of Cambridge has found

Scientists believe that most of the interbreeding happened following a mysterious migratory event which occurred around 3,000 years ago, known as the ‘Eurasian backflow’ when modern humans who left African around 50,000 years ago, suddenly flooded back.

www.telegraph.co.uk...



The accidental STR markers displayed during filming by the discovery channel (although they probably did it quite deliberately to leak the info) of king tuts dna results shows him to belong to haplogroup R1b which has its highest concentration today in Ireland of all places.

In summery we observe a massive southward migration of North Europeans around 4000 years ago flooding into China, North Africa, India and the Mediterranean. What caused this sudden outflow is yet to be determined but is likely to be some type of cataclysm in my opinion.

Obviously this is just the tip of the Iceberg as the southward migration was huge and it appears reached the whole of the southern hemisphere eg Celtic Pre-Māori settlement of New Zealand etc

a reply to: zinc12

That's an interesting article, thanks for posting it. The Tarim mummies are fascinating and I think that they are the proto 'Scythians' who later migrated to Western Europe, Ireland in particular.

I personally think that the migration around Europe was complicated and flowed both West to East and East to West.
I don't know if it's 'hushed up' (by whom?) or just not fully understood yet.
The Celts never went to New Zealand, there is no real evidence to suggest they were ever there.

Also I've never heard that Egyptians had R1b blood - are there any more sources for that? Thanks in advance.

Lots to consider in your thread -

a reply to: zinc12

I'll add a few things,
There is no "HUSHED UP" mass migration of nother europeans, but climate change influenced movement of groups all over the world.
Your 4k date is due to the 4.2 kilo year event, that affected worldwide climate ,but was particulary severe in the northern hemisphere.

The movements of the indo europeans, your northern europeans, started several millenia earlier with the yamna expansion out of russia.

The earliest and best documented evidence for its affect on populations comes from, M. A. Courty's work at Tel Lielan

Further investigations allow to re-examine the nature, age, causes and effects of the third millennium catastrophe identified from our earlier findings. Test on various late Gird millennium BC archaeological deposit and contemporaneous provides evidence for the regional occurrence in northern Syria of a layer with an uncommon petrographic assemblage, dated at ca. 2350 BC (transition between late Early Dynastic and Early Akkad). It consists of fine send-sized, well sorted spherules of various composition (silica, silicates and fibro-radiated calcite), millimetric fragments of a black, vesicular, amorphous material made of silicates with Mg-Ca carbonate and phosphate inclusions, ovoid micro-aggregates made of densely packed crystals (calcite, gypsum or feldspars) and exogenous angular fragments of a coarse crystallised igneous rock. All these particles are only present in this specific layer and are finely mixed with mud-brick debris or with a burnt surface horizon in the contemporaneous soils. In occupation sequences, the layer displays an uncommon dense packing of sand-sized, very porous aggregates that suggests disintegration of the mud-brick construction by an air blast. In the virgin soil, the burnt horizon contains black soot and graphite, and appears to have been instantaneously fossilised by a rapid and uncommon colluvial wash. Occurrence in a previously recorded thick tephra deposit of particles identical to some of the mysterious layer and resemblance of its original pseudo-sand fabric with t he exploded one of the mysterious layer confirms that the later is contemporaneous with the tephra deposit It has been however impossible to find typical tephra shards in sites located at a few km around the one with the tephra deposit The restricted occurrence of the later suggests that the massive tephra accumulation can no longer be considered as a typical fallout derived from the dispersion of material from a terrestrial volcanic explosion. Analytical investigations in various directions have been unable, so far, to refute or confirm that a cosmic event would have been the cause for production of both the widely distributed mysterious particles and the localised thick tephra. Origin of this mysterious phenomena still remains unsolved.
The excellent stratigraphical correlation between sites that are distant of a few hundred km clearly shows that the instantaneous dust fallout, previously considered as the initiative mechanism to the ca. 2200 yr BC abrupt climate change, occurred more than one hundred years earlier. The loose soil fabric, originally correlated with effects of strong winds and rapid establishment of aridity, can now be re-interpreted and possibly assigned to a violent blow-up. The theory of the Akkad empire collapse has, however, lost its basis. Soil specialists, geochemists and archaeologists should join their effort to solve this problem, and debate the exact nature of the socio cultural echo to this extraordinary event Our study illustrates the exceptional potential of archaeological sites to offer well preserved sedimentary archives of instantaneous phenomena that have shacked past terrestrial environments. It also demonstrates the importance of a high temporal resolution for debating causality of natural catastrophe on societal phenomena. Soil-sedimentary markers are in a way less subjective than historical sources for providing such a precision, although their interpretation might also be controversial, particularly when facing lack of analogues from the past or the present.

The 2350 BC Middle East Anomaly Evidenced By Micro-debris Fallout, Surface Combustion And Soil Explosion

Mike Baillie has shown the event itself was part of a longer series of climate downturns in the bronze age, with a roughly 37 year perodicity of downturns over an approx 200 year span.

Much evidence exists for the major climate anomaly c2200-2000 BC. In this paper, we demonstrate that precisely dated Irish bog oaks record this climatic event, which appears to begin abruptly in 2206 BC and last until around 1900 BC. However, it might be unwise to ignore the precisely dated, abrupt environmental downturn that occurs some 150 years earlier. Irish and English oak tree rings draw attention to a notable decade-long growth downturn spanning 2354 BC to 2345 BC with hints of inundation. Interest in this apparently localized inundation led to the discovery that traditions from around the world specify dated stories within 10 years of 2350 BC. These stories involve the Chinese emperor Yao (traditional date 2357 BC), who presided over a series of catastrophes, including floods, in 2346 BC; Archbishop Ussher who used the dates 2349-2348 BC for the biblical Flood; and the ‘birth’ of three Mayan deities, GI, GII and GIII in the year 2360 BC. Why, one might ask, should people around the northern hemisphere have generated stories that appear to hark back to a two decade window between 2360 BC and 2340 BC? Furthermore, a smoothed growth response for North European trees suggests the existence of a 37 year cycle of reduced growth, hinting that the events around 2350 BC and 2200-2000 BC may be related. One possible scenario to account for these various observations is that something happened in the sky around this time with memorable consequences for those on the ground; a scenario highly compatible with controversial evidence for an anomalous dust deposition event observed at Tell Leilan in Syria. Overall, this unusual accumulation of evidence, including similarities in stories from widely separated areas, suggests that the scenario be treated seriously as a basis for further research.

Why we shouldn’t ignore the mid-24th century BC when discussing the 2200-2000 BC climate anomaly

The events of the period so affected european and near eastern populations, they nearly all have minumum population sizes 4.2 k years ago.

Super fathers

and the Eurasian admixture into africa is well documented, but its not northern europeans but northern egyptians and levantines and arabians.

Eurasian admixture in africans

If you look closely at the archeology, there is no more of a movement of northern europeans south as there is movment of southern europeans north.. Everybody was on the move, trying to make a living in a new climate regime.

This is very interesting, ill be doing some research into this..

Good thread.. star and flag. .

Yes, definitely! I was recently studying albino aspects in history spanning 35,000 + years and the effect it has had on today's society. I have thought I should put together a thread on it. Unfortunately, I would not do it justice!

This link on the original black cultures is extremely detailed and well-sourced to be ignored.
Real history.com link on ancient civilizations

I did find it extremely fascinating and nothing like history I was educated in. Will have to do more research, but it definitely makes many valid arguments as to this OPs thread and then some.

Edit add: OP, obviously, you have a valid question though regarding what could have occurred to change the status quo? I cannot help but think man-made religions had created the illusions and downfall of many of those ancient civilizations.

originally posted by: beansidhe
a reply to: zinc12

That's an interesting article, thanks for posting it. The Tarim mummies are fascinating and I think that they are the proto 'Scythians' who later migrated to Western Europe, Ireland in particular.

I personally think that the migration around Europe was complicated and flowed both West to East and East to West.
I don't know if it's 'hushed up' (by whom?) or just not fully understood yet.
The Celts never went to New Zealand, there is no real evidence to suggest they were ever there.

Also I've never heard that Egyptians had R1b blood - are there any more sources for that? Thanks in advance.

Lots to consider in your thread -

Well DNA has actually been extracted successfully from all of the royal pharaonic mummies in Egypt but Mr zahi hawass flatly refused to make the dna profiles public. However the Discovery chanel was making a documentary about the dna testing that was taking place with Zahi's permission. They filmed king tuts STR markers appear during analysis on the computer screen. One observant Scientist noticed this and plugged in the STR values into a haplogroup calculator, the markers show King tut to belong to haplogroup R1b which only 1% of modern Egyptians belong to. You can read the STR values off the screen if you watch that documentary yourself, I have and confirm that is indeed what it shows. Some will try to pass it off as a film prop but fact is no props were used in making that documentary so its doubtful. You wont get more then this as the Egyptian government wont allow such a release of information, we just have to hope that in time someone will leak it out.

In regards to the pre-maori peoples of new zealand that would be a thread in itself yet there are plenty of people in new zealand who say information is being actively suppressed.

As to who is suppressing the information, the media in general and the Smithsonian institute both of which are owned by the same peoples. It can be found if you dig for it but the importance of the southward migration is played down.

a reply to: punkinworks10

I dont know that there was any major climate change 4000 years ago and as far as I know the cause of the mass migration is at this time undetermined and not necessary global in extent.

To their surprise, they found that compared with the earlier communities, up to one quarter of African DNA has come from interbreeding with Western Eurasians, such as people from Britain, Europe and the west of Asia.

The cause of the West Eurasian migration back into Africa is currently a mystery, with no obvious climatic reasons.

www.telegraph.co.uk...

a reply to: zinc12

Petervlar can help you out with haplogroups much better than I can, but to the best of my knowledge R1b is not unheard of outwith Celtic populations.

The Celts weren't shy in leaving their mark and if they had been in New Zealand, there would be tonnes of evidence left over, from burials, stories and folklore right through to beautiful metalwear. We don't have any of that and to claim that it all came from the North denies it its Polynesian heritage.

'The media in general' is a bit, well, generalised. Do you mean American media, Scottish media, Egyptian media?

Sorry couldn't resist but when I read hushed up southward mass migration of Northern Europeans this is what I immediately thought of...



Season 6 just started too. Seriously though this is interesting and I think I remember my History of Western Art professor talking briefly about this.

a reply to: zinc12

Brilliant work, a high quality thread that deserves to be one of the top thread's.

I can see this or it's source material being post referenced on many future thread's as well.

Thank you for something worthy to read and make us think a little more.

a reply to: beansidhe

Yes haplogroup R1 is found outside Celtic populations and originates around the black sea area.

I did not say everything in new Zeland came from the pre maori people, I simply said there were pre maori peoples there that are not acknowledged.

All Western media is owned and controlled by the same group of people, the family's or whatever you want to call them, the same people who own the federal reserve, the same people who own and use the European union to control Europe, there is many names you could call them but I just tend to call them "the dirt bags" as I find it describes them quite well.

a reply to: LABTECH767

Cheers, thanks !

link to amazon

The above book goes into this and the effect it has had on all of us culturally ever since.

Was recommended to me on another thread but is a very interesting read.

a reply to: zinc12
The evidence for wide spread sudden climatice changes can be found all through the ancient near east, Asia, north America and Europe.
It is recorded in the tree rings from ancient oaks in Ireland(the subject of the paper I posted previously),
it shows up in bristlecone pines in the California high country, it shows up in 200 year droughts in northern Mesopotamia that facilitated the downfall of the Akkadian empire, because of the drought people went on the move and "invaded" new lands.
The sudden shift in climate is responsible for the collapse of the most of the major civilizations around the world.

a reply to: zinc12
Hold on. You've already started off with a lot of fallacies.

India has a caste system but this caste system was introduced around 4000 years ago with the arrival of the Aryans in north India.

The Aryans had a caste system before migrating anywhere. According to the Rig Veda it was divided from the beginning of creation -
Priests (brahmin),
warrior-priests (kshatriya),
farmers/artisans/merchants/skilled trades (vaisya), and
unskilled workers (sudra).

There were only these four, and becoming Dvija (twiceborn) class could be achieved solely through proper samskara.

During the period you are referring to the word for class (varna) came to mean color - meaning 'class' now included the four original divisions PLUS the 'race' of the individual. Additionally the 'untouchable' class was created from unwanted children through class mixture. They (as well as the lower Jatis) were based solely on profession, not race. Untouchables were "avarna" (no varna), so obviously this does not literally mean colourless - rather "outside the class system".

Regardless of this, many scholars believe this to be a later addition and that perhaps there never was much of a division in Vedic times.

Photos courtesy of an old friend:

southward movement of North Europeans

I have no idea where you got the notion that Northern Europeans moved into India. The Aryan Invasion Theory has absolutely nothing to do with Northern Europe. The Caucasus and the Eurasian Steppes are absolutely not Northern Europe.

Madam Blavatsky in the Secret doctrine says :

I hope to god you are not seriously quoting Helena Blavatsky in an attempt at real historical discourse. She is merely a New Age cult leader who mixed eastern and western notions to her liking. She believed the Aryan race was a million years old. She's even crazy by cult standards. She's in line with Scientologists.

What of the strange appearance of the mummy's of China ?

All the Tocharian mummies prove is that the Celts got around. They had vast trade routes and settled all over. You deliberately left out the fact that the majority of the mummies were Asiatic. Not all were Europoid.

king tuts dna results shows him to belong to haplogroup R1b

Do you have any proper sourcing for that? Because the scientists involved called it "simply impossible". In all likelihood it was fraudulent moneygrab, designed to coerce gullible people who wanted to be descended from Pharaohs.

a reply to: CynConcepts

Is nobody going to address this? I wish I had the knowledge to dispel it. I can't help but feel this is being ignored because the source is so tremendously ignorant.

a reply to: zinc12

Just a little more meat on the bone and it could be plausible...

The Indian Swastiska is a reference to the dipper and the polaris, its a seasonal dial.. four seasons..

However the drawback is, the neolithic societies emerged about 12kya, and the Harappa culture already had a working neolithic society on the spice route...

a reply to: SargonThrall

I think you will find I quoted a study in my OP by Harvard geneticists that the chaste system did not exist in India prior to the arrival of the aryans, the aryans always had a class system (upper, middle, lower) among themselves but to prevent further intermixing they modified it to a chaste system.

The purpose of tarten is actually to show to others what class you belong to, slaves one colour, Peasants two colours, nobles five colours, and Ollamh/poets/royalty had six colours.


Russians are Europeans would you not say? Russia is in the north hemisphere is it not?

To travel Southwards into China and India would be a southward migration would it not?

The fact is that today haplogroup R1a and R1b is concentrated in North Europeans, both the Chinese mummies and the Aryans are their ancestors.

a reply to: zinc12
Now you are being deliberately obtuse. In your second paragraph you said that Aryans "placed their offspring at the head of the system" which is false, they did not decide their class, it was hereditary. Additionally you implied only the Brahmin class contained Indo-Europeans which is also false, they were present in every class.

Russians are not Europeans. They are Russians. Russia is partly in the Northern Hemisphere yes; the location in question is not. You are conflating two words to conform to your falsehood.

Northern Europe is Scandinavia. You're the first person i've ever seen try to force-fit it to mean the Caucasus.

a reply to: SargonThrall

Yes that is correct the aryans did place their offspring at the top of the chaste system and that is how today the higher chastes in India are genetically closer to Europeans (the aryans) then asians (native peoples) as per the first study describes in my op.

I clearly quoted intermixing was rampant initially amongst aryans and native Indians when they first arrived, then a chaste system was imposed that

But once established, the caste system became genetically effective, the researchers observed. Mixture across groups became very rare.

Most people looking at a Russian would probably describe them as being of European appearance...please describe how Russians are not similar to their European neighbours...would you like to say they are Asian perhaps?