The hushed up southward mass migration of North Europeans

originally posted by: wmd_2008
a reply to: zinc12

Genetics and DNA would show you are wrong.

Yeah I must be wrong because you dislike the thesis lol If you liked the thesis I must be right..is that how it works ie the emotional response lol

originally posted by: Shiloh7
a reply to: zinc12


The idea of people moving around the globe seems to be a very hot potato for some and especially those who want their version of history to remain and block out any further research or facts.

You also have the attitudes of people like Dr Hawass who seemed to think it impossible that the Ancient Egyptians may have been superseded by another race, who's contribution to their building programme eclipses Egypt's current occupiers.

The hot potato is not travailing around the world but who travelled around the world, when and from where. Westerners travelling southward in mass into India, China, Africa, New Zealand, Americas must be hushed up at all costs hence the need for this thread.

originally posted by: ElectricUniverse
a reply to: zinc12

Humm, I wonder if the Chinese mommies could have been the Tuatha De Danann(people of the goddess Danu) that left Éire/Ireland when the Celts threw them out. According to the legends, the Tuatha De Danann either left by boats, or they retreated deep into the Earth. Their more ancient name was Tuath Dé, which translates to "tribe of the gods". They were supposed to be "magical beings", but i wonder if they were just more technologically advanced but were fewer than the invading hordes of Celts which is why they left Ireland.

Uploaded on Apr 12, 2011

In the late 1980's, perfectly preserved 3000-year-old mummies began appearing in a remote Chinese desert. They had long reddish-blond hair, European features and didn't appear to be the ancestors of modern-day Chinese people.

In a find that could turn conventional history on its head, scientists using genetic testing have discovered that Caucasians lived in western China's Tarim Basin a thousand years before East Asians arrived.

Unearthed lying on her side as though in sleep, a single tuft of red hair falling across her head and ragged moccasins on her feet, the Beauty of Loulan is considered to be one of the best preserved mummies ever found.

Roughly 3800-years-old and discovered in the sands of Xinjiang province in western China, her emaciated features betray a facial bone structure that is surprisingly similar to Caucasian looking women.

A team of American and Chinese researchers working in a laboratory in Sweden used DNA samples to date and profile her mummy, confirming she and other mummies are of Indo-European descent.

www.youtube.com...

Here is the video of the above link which is from 2011.

I would say no because the Celts arrived in Ireland around 1000-500bc. The Christen church version is the Milesians who were not Celts came to Ireland and occupied it. The Christen church in the 11th century said they came from the Spanish region. And the strange thing about it after DNA studies were done on Irish people they found a good portion of the Irish people have a similar bloodline to the peoples of the Basque region and ancient people who lived in areas of Turkey.

Celts in Ireland believed the Tuatha are pagan gods the church believes they are fallen angels. Some Historians believe the Tuatha came from Greece or the Middle east. We will never know for sure what really happened that long ago. But we know for a fact people lived on the Island of Ireland just after the Ice age.

originally posted by: beansidhe
a reply to: zinc12

Petervlar can help you out with haplogroups much better than I can, but to the best of my knowledge R1b is not unheard of outwith Celtic populations.

The Celts weren't shy in leaving their mark and if they had been in New Zealand, there would be tonnes of evidence left over, from burials, stories and folklore right through to beautiful metalwear. We don't have any of that and to claim that it all came from the North denies it its Polynesian heritage.

'The media in general' is a bit, well, generalised. Do you mean American media, Scottish media, Egyptian media?

Genetic studies have proven the Irish are not Celts, that's a myth that has existed for centuries. And it needs to stop. Science has proven the Irish origins are lot more complex then originally thought. The Celt origins for the Irish never made sense anyhow, after finding human settlements in Ireland that date to 8,000bc and Newgrange is 5000 years old. The Celts could never have build it, as that they never existed. And why does it have to be the Celts that arrived in New Zealand? I not saying its not true but why do people think it? Like there is clear, irrefutable evidence stone structures existed in Ireland before the Celts.

a reply to: kieran1
Tautha means north in Irish. They were also known as aes sídhe, people of the sidhe.

Siddhi in India are supernatural powers which fits well with the ability's of these people

The Titans were banished into the ground Tartarus (just like the Thutha). If we remember Plato's story of atlantis the home of the titans was atlantis and the first king was atlas.

originally posted by: zinc12
a reply to: kieran1
Tautha means north in Irish. They were also known as aes sídhe, people of the sidhe.

Siddhi in India are supernatural powers which fits well with the ability's of these people

The Titans were banished into the ground Tartarus (just like the Thutha). If we remember Plato's story of atlantis the home of the titans was atlantis and the first king was atlas.

Tuatha means group or people, it does mean north in Irish. The two versions are they are offspring of gods in the past. The other is they are tribe that migrated to Ireland and originally are from very Ancient Greece. The Tuatha may have also migrated to Denmark and this is why the Gods of the Vikings are similar to other gods in human history.

I don't think we will ever know who or what or where the Tuatha came from its lost to time. What we do is the island of Ireland was inhabited just after the ice age. Where the Tuatha aliens from another world, supernatural beings, normal human beings like you me who knows? We have myths handed that down through time that says the Tuatha were special and they had the ability to do things that normal mortal men could not do.

originally posted by: kieran1

originally posted by: beansidhe
a reply to: zinc12

Petervlar can help you out with haplogroups much better than I can, but to the best of my knowledge R1b is not unheard of outwith Celtic populations.

The Celts weren't shy in leaving their mark and if they had been in New Zealand, there would be tonnes of evidence left over, from burials, stories and folklore right through to beautiful metalwear. We don't have any of that and to claim that it all came from the North denies it its Polynesian heritage.

'The media in general' is a bit, well, generalised. Do you mean American media, Scottish media, Egyptian media?

Genetic studies have proven the Irish are not Celts, that's a myth that has existed for centuries. And it needs to stop. Science has proven the Irish origins are lot more complex then originally thought. The Celt origins for the Irish never made sense anyhow, after finding human settlements in Ireland that date to 8,000bc and Newgrange is 5000 years old. The Celts could never have build it, as that they never existed. And why does it have to be the Celts that arrived in New Zealand? I not saying its not true but why do people think it? Like there is clear, irrefutable evidence stone structures existed in Ireland before the Celts.

I think you're misunderstanding me. We know that people existed in Ireland before the Celts - nobody is saying that the Insular Celts were the first inhabitants. The Celts aren't credited with building Newgrange either. I'm also saying, like you, that the Celts didn't make it to New Zealand.

originally posted by: beansidhe

originally posted by: kieran1

originally posted by: beansidhe
a reply to: zinc12

Petervlar can help you out with haplogroups much better than I can, but to the best of my knowledge R1b is not unheard of outwith Celtic populations.

The Celts weren't shy in leaving their mark and if they had been in New Zealand, there would be tonnes of evidence left over, from burials, stories and folklore right through to beautiful metalwear. We don't have any of that and to claim that it all came from the North denies it its Polynesian heritage.

'The media in general' is a bit, well, generalised. Do you mean American media, Scottish media, Egyptian media?

Genetic studies have proven the Irish are not Celts, that's a myth that has existed for centuries. And it needs to stop. Science has proven the Irish origins are lot more complex then originally thought. The Celt origins for the Irish never made sense anyhow, after finding human settlements in Ireland that date to 8,000bc and Newgrange is 5000 years old. The Celts could never have build it, as that they never existed. And why does it have to be the Celts that arrived in New Zealand? I not saying its not true but why do people think it? Like there is clear, irrefutable evidence stone structures existed in Ireland before the Celts.

I think you're misunderstanding me. We know that people existed in Ireland before the Celts - nobody is saying that the Insular Celts were the first inhabitants. The Celts aren't credited with building Newgrange either. I'm also saying, like you, that the Celts didn't make it to New Zealand.

I don't know if its true or not Celts made it to the New Zealand? Short and little bit of research i have done is this. Historians based in New Zealand have claimed the Maori oral tradition speaks of meeting people when they first arrived. They described those people are fair-skinned. If the oral tradition says there weas people there before they arrived then you can't rule it out other cultures made it to New Zealand.

a reply to: kieran1

But is there an oral tradition that states this or has this come from the much later 19th century tradition of an Aryan race, which is what this thread is implying? It would help if you could link your research to see where it comes from.

There is nothing on the ground which demonstrates that the Celts were there to back up these stories.
Also, it was the Fir Bolg who were said to come from Greece, if I remember right; my reading of the stories is that the Tuatha were a Bronze Age group who brought their metal work over before the Milesians slaughtered them ( ie sent them to live underground).

The various groups that invaded Ireland were all descended from Magog (Scythians). They were all "returning" each one that arrived claimed possession of the island by birthright stating it was the land of their forefathers.

a reply to: zinc12

zinc, the family tree you posted comes from the Lebor Gabala Erenn, in which all of the groups mentioned come over to Ireland, one after the other to rule, after slaughtering the current inhabitants.
Nowhere in that book does it state that they moved southwards again in a mass migration. If anything, it concedes to the popular notion of a general trend for east to west migratory waves.
If you look at the timelines it gives, they are so unlikely that the best we can use the family tree for is a rough notion of who's who.

yes,after years of reading about it,and stories ive been told,I believe a race of people were here in NZ before the maori.Thousands of skeletons found and spirited away without DNA being done,artifacts being found that are not in the style of maori art,a boomerang found in sand dunes,skeletons around 7ft tall being found and destroyed,when usually the local maori want them all,but they said they are not ours,do as you will with them.I remember a display in the auckland museum of a long plait of blonde hair,its gone now,I wonder why?
Even the chief of the biggest tribe in NZ said they were not here first.Myself,I think it was possibly the easter islanders or peruvians,as the link with the kumara (sweet potato) is hard to ignore,it has the same meaning in indian language also from what I remember reading.Its also very hard to believe that NZ was the last large land mass to be inhabited....the maori say they arrived around 1400ad...but that number is always changing.There is a Pa (fort) in taranaki that has been dated to 900ad on the plaque that sits there,and after research it was said that it would have taken several hundred people to make it,when most tribes numbered alot less than that.
Research the korotangi stone bird.....very interesting topic,also look up the waitaha tribe,that says they were here before maori,they have different art to maori and some have red hair and grenn eyes.
The maori also have legends of other races that were here,but these days they have been turned into fairytales.....
I have maori mates from mahia in the hawkes bay that also told me stories of people that were there before them......the "patupaiarehe" .
for more unbiased info have a read of this site
tangatawhenua16.wix.com...

some members here say its a racist site,which it is not,if you take the time to read it all,they will also say the authour tries to say celts were here first,which he doesnt.
I dont believe they were here first,but someone was,and as a NZ'er,I want to know,its our history and we have a right to know.

a reply to: beansidhe

You are misunderstanding what I said. Those people who were coming to Ireland were coming returning hundreds or thousands of years after their ancestors left that region, not necessarily that island. How else could hey claim part of the land under ancestral grounds?

a reply to: zinc12

They didn't claim that. The Milesians, for example, were going there to avenge Ith's death by the Tuatha, after Ith had conquered Iberia. Not because Ireland was their family home. They couldn't have cared less about ancestry, they wanted the land.
It's an allegory for the spread of gaelic and of course, the Gaels. I won't argue that there was a back and forth flow of peoples, far from it, it's just that that family tree in particular states the very opposite.

a reply to: beansidhe

Listening to the advise of his druid, Caicer, Míl decided to head back to Ireland, his ancestral home (because he was descendant of Nemed). Míl had another son named Ir in Thrace, and another on an island, named Colptha. There were also a number of other sons, including Eremon.

www.timelessmyths.com...

a reply to: zinc12

Nemed and the Nemedians, if I remember right (and I'll have to go and read the Lebor Gabala now ) were Scythians. At a push, you could claim Cessair (Noah's grandson) was one of the original ice-age settlers.

The point is, it's difficult to use the family tree as factual because it was probably never meant to be seen as that.

a reply to: beansidhe

They were all Scythians or if you like they could all trace their ancestry to the Scythians

Nemed was the leader of the Nemedian

Nemed had fled to Greece, where were subjugated and became slaves. The descendants were known as the Fir Bolg, who would later return to Ireland.

Note also the Fir Bolg ancestors of the Nemedians also "returned" to Ireland

Iobath son of Beothach son of Iarbanel son of Nemed had brought his followers to these islands, where they became known Tuatha De. Later when they migrate back to Ireland, they became known as Tuatha De Danann.

Note the Tuatha De Danann were also returning after first fleeing southwards perhaps thousands of years before.

The Tuatha are the most interesting because they seemed to have preserved Drudical arts of their ancestors who came from the North

a reply to: zinc12

Tuatha De was the old usage of the term referring to the Gods/stories.

Later, the Church used the term to describe Israelites. So, to prevent confusion, Tuatha De Danann was used to referenced the ancient gods of eire

a reply to: hiddenNZ

Whats with these red haired people hey, red haired mummy's in China, red haired in NZ, red haired in Peru, Egypt. I bet they are all related and all slowly moved Southwards over thousands of years after originally being displaced.