F-22 against 5 F-15s or even 8. Bring it on !

I really do wish the F-22 was not so expensive so that we could afford more of these awesome aircraft. youtu.be...

a reply to: 727Sky
This happened some time ago. The Eagle pilots were handpicked by senior officers as the best of the best.In the interview with them , the pilots were all saying "we never even knew it was there". One pilot actually stated he didnt know it was there until he looked up and it was flying just outta reach above him.

I talked to a fighter pilot who once told me, when asked, that from what he'd heard from the raptor pilots taking on f15's was like "clubbing baby seals"

originally posted by: BASSPLYR
I talked to a fighter pilot who once told me, when asked, that from what he'd heard from the raptor pilots taking on f15's was like "clubbing baby seals"

Yea, they said that in the video he linked. Pretty crazy if you ask me. 1 vs 5 and none of the F-15 pilots ever even seen the 1 F-22 is amazing and speaks volumes by itself.

a reply to: 727Sky

If I understand correctly, in the first few go 'arounds' between
22s and 15s, it was a bit unfair as all the 22 drivers were top 15 drivers previous to flying the 22s. As a result they knew everything there was to know about the Eagles whereas the 15 pilots knew nothing about the Raptors. A bit unfair.


In this video, the 15 drivers ARE Raptor pilots..... to even out the contest. It was still 'clubbing baby seals'....

originally posted by: nwtrucker
a reply to: 727Sky

If I understand correctly, in the first few go 'arounds' between
22s and 15s, it was a bit unfair as all the 22 drivers were top 15 drivers previous to flying the 22s. As a result they knew everything there was to know about the Eagles whereas the 15 pilots knew nothing about the Raptors. A bit unfair.


In this video, the 15 drivers ARE Raptor pilots..... to even out the contest. It was still 'clubbing baby seals'....

That is pretty much what it will be like in any real fight as the USA isnt going to be facing any enemys pilots that are F-22 or even F-35 trained unless Trump or Hillary does something really really really dumb in the next 5-10 years.

a reply to: crazyewok


Agreed.

a reply to: crazyewok


double post

a reply to: nwtrucker

Wrong the pilots of the F-15s were also top Raptor pilots. So both pilots knew as much as the other about both air craft. I am assuming they rotated pilots with the same results. With this tech and the air force they will not be that lazy in their examination. Only chance would be if they fabricated a little to make the 22 seem better. If they are all being honest this is a very good thing for our air force. Could also supercharge the sale of f-15s and replace with the raptor for ourselves.

Sorry I see you said the first few go arounds. This may null my argument due to I only checked the experiment as a whole not just the first few rounds which could of been only f-15 pilots but I would think they would know enough for it to be close to fair mentally head to head.

originally posted by: randomthoughts12
a reply to: nwtrucker

Wrong the pilots of the F-15s were also top Raptor pilots. So both pilots knew as much as the other about both air craft. I am assuming they rotated pilots with the same results. With this tech and the air force they will not be that lazy in their examination. Only chance would be if they fabricated a little to make the 22 seem better. If they are all being honest this is a very good thing for our air force. Could also supercharge the sale of f-15s and replace with the raptor for ourselves.

Sorry I see you said the first few go arounds. This may null my argument due to I only checked the experiment as a whole not just the first few rounds which could of been only f-15 pilots but I would think they would know enough for it to be close to fair mentally head to head.

The first few rounds, the Raptor was still under wraps. I'd bet the F-15 drivers didn't know much beyond scuttlebutt about them. All the new F-22 drivers were expert Eagle drivers.....At least, that's what I'd guess.....

a reply to: 727Sky

And the results Will be the same for the f-35..

a reply to: nwtrucker

I agree but the results after this was inter mixed meaning all pilots knew both like I said. The first few rounds were among the quickest and this may be why.

We have all heard the disparaging remarks by Canada, Australia, and even those in the states about the F-22 and of course the F-35.

The F-22 was built all over the country with something like the manufacturing of parts and sub-assemblies going on in 44 different locations/states. Then the parts were all brought together to finish the aircraft. Some of these off sight parts had to be hand finished because they did not fit. We have a little over 180 F-22s flying today instead of the 700 plus that was initially requested and wanted. The additional orders were cancelled due to the boondoggle the whole program had turned into. It was not the aircraft as much as the "spread the work around" to as many states as possible and spend insane amounts of tax payer money that finally killed the program..

I will post first about the F-35 and some of the myths we have all heard from the detractors. I must say 500,000 $ for a custom frigging helmet is more than military stupid expensive IMO. Otherwise the following videos of the F-35 are directed at busting the myths and has some great information. Is the bird expensive, yes.. Is the program wasteful (?) of course it is ... that is the way we do things.
youtu.be...

youtu.be...

youtu.be...


Now for an old hit piece on why the $356 million per copy of the F-22 was canceled. Is all the information accurate.. I doubt it, especially about the Raptors ability to communicate on the battle field. Yet, I have very little doubt about the way the program was farmed out and the reasons the whole program was set up the way it was. Either way the program was canceled far short of the initial wish list order.
youtu.be...

The Russian/Indian joint FGFA will include a total of 43 improvements over the T-50 and has been delayed because of those improvements. The cost is around 100 million per copy (a damn far cry from 300 million plus) and the plans are for India to receive/build close to 206 aircraft and Russia to initially receive 250 aircraft.. Both have options for more aircraft plus Russia is looking to export the aircraft.. We will have to wait and see if the improvements and the aircraft will preform as expected...deliveries have been stretched to 2019 was the word I got... Either way both Russia and China are fielding new and upgraded designs yearly ...

Air superiority is a must and with all the upgrades (even in bad economic times) Russia and China have been doing to their military IMO it is not the time to play games with our nations defense and gold plated excuse plagued defense systems.

I once bought a part for an aircraft. It cost me $19.95 but did not have an aircraft serial part number. The part was made at the same factory the aircraft part was made. The part that had the aircraft serial part number was $129.99..

The ashtrays on some of the older commercial aircraft that were located in the arm rest of your passenger seat were $75 per ashtray.

Light bulbs which you could buy off the street for .50 cents all of a sudden cost $8 dollars for a civilian aircraft and probably $100 for a military aircraft if not more..? I never had to personally replace a bulb on a military aircraft; I just wrote it up and the bird was fixed.. but I kinda figure if a hammer cost the military $600 then a bulb at $100 sounds about right ?

a reply to: 727Sky

The F-22 fly away cost was something like $143M a copy at the end of the program. The $300M is frequently quoted and is what the aircraft cost for the entire program. It's frequently quoted to prove that we don't need stealth aircraft because they're too expensive.

As for the F-35 helmet, you're putting the entire Heads Up Display, plus fusing outside sensors and displaying it on a face plate. Military or civilian, that's going to be expensive as hell.

a reply to: Zaphod58

The F-22 fly away cost was something like $143M a copy

If that is the case then I stand corrected. The amount of 356 million was taken directly from the last video posted about the cancellation of the program.

Pretty good videos on the F-35, no?

a reply to: 727Sky

That number is thrown around a lot. If you take the total program cost and divide it by the number of aircraft, that's what the cost of the aircraft comes out as. But that includes development and engineering costs, as well as costs not associated with the aircraft.

I'll have to watch the videos later when I can get on my laptop. I've seen some of those, but don't remember if it was those specific ones. It's always nice to see legitimate information getting out, even if it will just get passed of as propaganda by the haters.

a reply to: 727Sky

The F-22 was built all over the country with something like the manufacturing of parts and sub-assemblies going on in 44 different locations/states. Then the parts were all brought together to finish the aircraft. Some of these off sight parts had to be hand finished because they did not fit.

Remember that a F-22 requires many different components, and surely the manufacturers of these components will be spread around many different states. Also considering the F-22 was a government program - it wouldn't be fair if funding, provided by all the states, was spent building up industry in a single state. Don't know about you, but I really like it when government money is spent in my area.

I don't know whether this is intentionally done to make the program harder to cancel or how actually large the disadvantages are. Also supplier issues are irritating, I prefer doing things at one site, but that's not completely possible with a fighter aircraft.

I wonder what the best way is to actually do this stuff? That's fair and minimizes cost and quality issues. I also wonder if this is a way Zaphod thinks the procurement system is broken?

We have a little over 180 F-22s flying today instead of the 700 plus that was initially requested and wanted. The additional orders were cancelled due to the boondoggle the whole program had turned into.

The F-22 certainly did have issues, however the F-22 was a result of the cold war which ended. The numbers were cut starting in 1990, by the time the aircraft flew for the first time it was down to 339 aircraft, and by 2003, 183 aircraft. Whenever the number of aircraft is cut the overall program cost for the aircraft goes up because development cost is amortized over a smaller number of aircraft, production rates can also slow (and the factories will never be utilized at full capacity).

The problem with the F-22 was not only its development issues, but the concept wasn't well suited to getting through the 1990's and 2000's. Maybe you could blame that on short-termism, inadequate planning, or simply unfortunate.

The Russian/Indian joint FGFA will include a total of 43 improvements over the T-50 and has been delayed because of those improvements. The cost is around 100 million per copy (a damn far cry from 300 million plus) and the plans are for India to receive/build close to 206 aircraft and Russia to initially receive 250 aircraft.. Both have options for more aircraft plus Russia is looking to export the aircraft.. We will have to wait and see if the improvements and the aircraft will preform as expected...deliveries have been stretched to 2019 was the word I got... Either way both Russia and China are fielding new and upgraded designs yearly ...

Wages and cost of materials differ in other countries, hence it's difficult to compare prices. 100 million per copy isn't that surprising, considering the aircraft size, systems, numbers, and where it's being built.

As far as this aircraft goes, it has issues of its own:

In 2007, the Congress-led UPA government had signed an inter-governmental agreement with Russia to co-develop the next generation FGFA. It was followed by the $295 million (`1,483 crore) preliminary design contract (PDC) in December 2010. The overall FGFA project cost for making all the 127 fighters in India was pegged at around $25 billion.

(snip)

- IAF claims developed engine of FGFA was not reliable
- Inadequate radar and stealth features
- Huge cost over-run
- India’s reduced share. Lack of participation by IAF in the design phase
- IAF apprehensive that Russia will not share technology


www.newindianexpress.com...

The program cost for the FGFA was apparently about 200 million dollars, according to that article. Of course, like the F-22 video you posted, the above source too probably contains inaccuracies.

Regarding the F-35 videos, here's a good source although it's a bit too pro F-35 for me, if that's even possible:

Anyone see the post the Aviationist on F-15C/D performance over in Europe today. Apparently they were quite dominant against everything from legacy Hornets to Eurofighters. Expect to see some positive press from the AF as a possible new buy alternate option for the F-22 review about to go down. My conspiracy anyway..

Would be nice to see the F-15 with something like the F-18's new avionics suite and some F-22 communication and electronics components new built from the ground up with some structural and power plant improvements.. That's the question though, what would we rather have and what would be best for the future of the AF? New build F-15s to augment the F-35/22 fleet would be pretty good I think. They're still considered almost unbeatable in a dogfight, so if they have over watch from stealth fighters they should survive future scenarios with less attrition.

Oh and they want new bombers and new fighters.. Oh and we can't drop the A-10. Where is the money coming from? There would have to be a major cut somewhere. Bye bye F-16.. for sure.