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Rimfires

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posted on Jan, 11 2005 @ 10:00 PM
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Can anyone explain to me how a rimfire works? does it use a firing pin like centerfires? (I never seen a mark on .22LR rounds after I fired them so I answered my own question I think).

Isn't the Russian 7.62x54R round rimfire?




posted on Jan, 11 2005 @ 10:56 PM
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Originally posted by GrOuNd_ZeRo
Can anyone explain to me how a rimfire works? does it use a firing pin like centerfires? (I never seen a mark on .22LR rounds after I fired them so I answered my own question I think).

Isn't the Russian 7.62x54R round rimfire?


Rimfire cartridges mold the primer compound into the rim, rather than a removeable primer. This is cheaper and smaller... And yes, they use firing pins (look around the edge of the .22 for a small nick - that's the firing pin mark).

I don't know about that Russian round, although it sounds a little big to make sense for a rimfire (the effective size of the primer would be huge, much larger than neccisary)



posted on Jan, 11 2005 @ 11:27 PM
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7.62x54R is not a rimfire round, but it is has a rimed cartridge. This means that instead of an indention for the extractor to grab onto and eject the round, it has a protruding lip, or rim, around the bottom edge.



posted on Jan, 11 2005 @ 11:39 PM
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Lots of people get rimmed cartridges and rim-fire cartridges confused, but Cavscout explained it pretty well. Most revolvers have rimmed cartridges, which means you can drop them in the cylinder and they won't fall through. Most auto-loading pistols, on the other hand, have rimless cartridges, because they're more compact and you can put more of them into a magazine.

There are only three common rifle cartridges that are rimmed (besides the .22 cartridge) and they're all shoot bullets that are about 3/10 of an inch in diameter (.30 caliber). The first one is the Russian one discussed above, the second is a World War I British design called the Enfield .303, and the other is a 110-year old cartridge still used a lot today by American deer hunters: the Winchester 30-30.



posted on Jan, 12 2005 @ 09:38 PM
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Thank you for explaining


I didn't grew up around guns so I didn't really figure out all that stuff yet, but I know a respectable amount about firearms, I got thoroughly interested in firearms back in 2001 and i'm pretty proud what I learned the last 3-4 years...

Yeah I highly doubted that the Russian 7.62 round had a rimfire, but who knows right?


I have a certain fondness to .22LR rounds, they are fun to shoot since there is virtually no recoil, hell I had more recoil with a BB-Gun


My other 2 favorite rounds are the 5.7x28mm and the 7.62x39...

IMO the best rounds are: .280cal round designed by the Brits for the EM-2, the 6.8mm remington SPC and the 5.7x28mm round for SMGs...

But that's getting way off topic...

What is the stopping power like on a .22LR? how much does a person need to drop? I heard stories of it doing very little to people, the .22cal pistol round is even worse, I heard they bounce off on certain obese people


That reminds me, anyone know the American-180 SMG? it's a SMG that fires .22LR at 1200 RPM!
1500 RPM with .22ILARCO which was designed esspecially for this weapon I believe...here is the link:

www.world.guns.ru...



posted on Jan, 12 2005 @ 10:04 PM
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Originally posted by GrOuNd_ZeRo


What is the stopping power like on a .22LR? how much does a person need to drop? I heard stories of it doing very little to people, the .22cal pistol round is even worse, I heard they bounce off on certain obese people




Not much, but enough. A .22LR (or .22 short) will certainly penetrate skin/muscle and bone, so if it manages to hit something (i.e. your brain, or a large vein/artery) it can certainly be lethal. A direct hit to thick muscle with lots of bone (i.e. the chest) may not penetrate however, especially if it is a weak load.

Here is a short muzzle velocity comparison, all but the .22 are for Cor-bon ammo (nice stuff, units are ft. lbs)

.22 Short 77 (Remington Yellow - many .22 pistols use this)
.22LR 140 (Remington Yellow Jacket)
.25 Auto 112
.380 Auto 220 (This is what the Walther PPK shoots)
9MM +P 466
45 ACP +p 573
357 Mag 640
44 Mag 1219
454 Casull 1907
.500 S&W 2580

FYI - The average CO2 BB gun has a muzzle velocity under 10 ft. lbs.



posted on Jan, 12 2005 @ 10:43 PM
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Originally posted by Starwars51
FYI - The average CO2 BB gun has a muzzle velocity under 10 ft. lbs.


Huh? Did you mean muzzle energy? Velocity is measured in feet per second.

GrOuNd ZeRo - the .22 is not an acceptable round to stop anything but rabbits, and at close range at that. It may kill someone if you shoot them in the brain, but even then it is less then a consistent killer.

Most agree that when shooting deer or men, you want to have at least 1000 lbs. of energy make contact with the target. I think the .22LR is like 200 at the muzzle, and 100 at 150yrds. which is probably not enough to put a hole in a really thick leather jacket. For comparison, the 7.62x39 barely produces over 1000 lbs. at muzzle, and a 9mm +P+ is like 950 at muzzle. Most rounds are underpowered, so don’t make the possibly fatal mistake of relying on anything under a 9mm; there is no reason to, today’s compact 9mm handguns are just as small as .25s and .380s were 5 years ago. You can even get a .45 ACP that is smaller than your hand.



posted on Jan, 12 2005 @ 10:54 PM
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Originally posted by Starwars51

.22 Short 77 (Remington Yellow - many .22 pistols use this)
.22LR 140 (Remington Yellow Jacket)
.25 Auto 112
.380 Auto 220 (This is what the Walther PPK shoots)
9MM +P 466
45 ACP +p 573
357 Mag 640
44 Mag 1219
454 Casull 1907
.500 S&W 2580


Hey, where did you get those numbers? I don't mean to sound rude, but they are off, by allot. 9mm consistently shoots over 1000 fps, and I know the .45 loads I carry shoot 840, and they aren’t even +pressure rounds (the manufacturer says so, and so does my chronograph. Back when I carried a 357, my safety slugs were rated at 1275 fps muzzle velocity, and if a .22 shot less then 100 fps, I don’t think it would travel more then 40 meters and it would have no accuracy. .500 S&W travels 2580? Out of a handgun barrel? The longer the barrel, the greater the velocity. 7.62x39 has to strain itself to reach 2300 fps out of a long riffle barrel. Nothing coming out of a 6 to 12 inch barrel is going over 2000 fps.

Most co2 bb guns that Wal Mart sells advertise on the box at least 300 fps.



posted on Jan, 12 2005 @ 11:51 PM
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Originally posted by cavscout

Originally posted by Starwars51
FYI - The average CO2 BB gun has a muzzle velocity under 10 ft. lbs.


Huh? Did you mean muzzle energy? Velocity is measured in feet per second.

GrOuNd ZeRo - the .22 is not an acceptable round to stop anything but rabbits, and at close range at that. It may kill someone if you shoot them in the brain, but even then it is less then a consistent killer.

Most agree that when shooting deer or men, you want to have at least 1000 lbs. of energy make contact with the target. I think the .22LR is like 200 at the muzzle, and 100 at 150yrds. which is probably not enough to put a hole in a really thick leather jacket. For comparison, the 7.62x39 barely produces over 1000 lbs. at muzzle, and a 9mm +P+ is like 950 at muzzle. Most rounds are underpowered, so don’t make the possibly fatal mistake of relying on anything under a 9mm; there is no reason to, today’s compact 9mm handguns are just as small as .25s and .380s were 5 years ago. You can even get a .45 ACP that is smaller than your hand.


Yeah, I meant energy with regards to the BB gun, but a .22LR is definately a lethal round, even when fired into the body (unless you are really fat or muscular). It can easily go through a watermelon. And read my other post, no where near 1000 ft. lbs. of energy (lbs. is a unit of force, not energy, BTW) is required to to kill a human. The .380 Auto is a pretty effective anti-personel weapon, and the high-energy rounds only have 220 ft. lbs. of energy.



posted on Jan, 13 2005 @ 12:32 AM
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Well, I didn't want to get into an argument about it. Yes, it is deadly. Yes it can kill. So can a bowling ball or a baseball bat. NO handgun is a good choice for self-defense, they are just convenient. I don't remember where I heard it, but someone once said that bringing a handgun to a riffle fight is like bringing a knife to a chainsaw fight. If you must limit yourself to a handgun, at least make it a decent caliber. If my 9 year old daughter can fire a 9mm effectively, then an adult has no excuse. It used to be that people carried .380s because the weapons that shot them had smaller frames and were more concealable. This is no longer the case, as I mentioned; nearly any caliber can be had in a small frame and decent price.

Any expert will tell you that the .380 is not a good choice unless it is all you have on hand. Its big brother, the 9mm, has even been knocked off its high horse. Most law enforcement agencies have made the switch to the .40, and many are switching to or doing serious trials on the .357 sig round. You will never meet a professional in the protection business. (like myself) who will recommend you carry a .380, and you will be laughed at if you ask about a .22. Now, of course, none of us would like to be shot with one, but we know that we would probably survive. The one shot drop rate for a .22 is less then 1%. The 9mm usually takes a few rounds to put a determined attacker down, this is why law enforcement now trains to "double tap," or fire multiple rounds quickly, when using the puny 9mm. Most police departments don’t even allow officers to carry a .380 as a back up weapon.

There are two things that will stop an attacker, their mind and their body. Sometimes, when shot, a man will immediately go into shock and his mind will not allow him to continue the fight. In this scenario, it does not matter what he was shot with. Unfortunately, most criminal attackers that require a bullet do not go into shock when you shoot them, but just the opposite they are so full of either natural or illegal mind and body altering substances that you must actually stop their bodies from functioning in order to stop the threat. 75% of the time, it takes a .40 or larger round to do this in one shot, and no matter how much you train, no matter how good you think you are, you will probably only get one shot. Statistically, most gun fights end with less then 3 rounds fired, total. You will be lucky if one of those rounds is yours, so make it count!

in order to be effective with the smaller rounds, you need to aim for the head. I would bet a paycheck that in a stressful environment you will miss a head shot with a handgun, even at very close range. Hell, most cops can’t even land every shot in the center of mass (chest) in shootings, and they usually shoot daily.

You can’t go wrong with a .45, and .40s are good to. There is just no reason to go any smaller, so why would you want to? Just remember that the people you recommend a .22 to just may have their or someone they loves lives depending on that round someday.

Ask yourself what you would rather be shot with, a .380 or a .45? I would take the .380 any day.

So far as the 1000 lbs. of energy goes, of course it is not required to be deadly, but it is preferred. The 30-30 has killed allot of dear in the last 100+ years, but that mean that is the most efficient. Its physics and you can’t argue with it. In order to consistently drop a man or a deer in their tracks with one round, you need to hit them with 1000 lbs of force. Anything less will probably kill them, but they (the armed attacker, not the deer) will probably have time to kill you back. You can argue it till your blue in the face, but many law-enforcement agencies, the FBI comes to mind, have spent millions studying it, and have produced reports that you can access. Those reports suggest what many have known for a long time; anything less then 1000 lbs of energy is a gamble.


Like I said, it wasn't my intention to argue with you, but as a firearms instructor it is my job to know and advise people on it, and I would hate for you to get hurt because no one told you. Do what you will with the info, I did my part.



posted on Jan, 13 2005 @ 06:47 AM
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I have to say I completely agree here, Personally I'd never buy any gun under 9mm, period.

What i'd do:
-Buy a 9mm for cheap target shooting
-Buy a .45cal for serious self defense, like a M1911 clone or if I can afford it a USP 45.
-Buy a WASR-10 (Yeah I know it sucks) for home defense along with a Saiga 12ga with a AK stock and pistol grip.

I'd recommend a .40cal to my wife.

About BB-Guns and Pellet guns, I owned a Daisy 693 which is a .177 BB pistol that shot at 450fps, it warned in the manual it could kill, but could it really? in what circumstances could it kill?

I personally got hit by a BB from that gun when a shot ricocheted and it hit my right on the head, it didn't break my skin but it definitly stung and left a nice red mark...



posted on Jan, 13 2005 @ 12:57 PM
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Originally posted by cavscout
Well, I didn't want to get into an argument about it. Yes, it is deadly. Yes it can kill.

Any expert will tell you that the .380 is not a good choice unless it is all you have on hand.


All I said was that the .22 (and .380 Auto) are perfectly capable of killing a human. They may not drop most people instantly and do require better shot placement, but that wasn't the question. I did not intend to get into a discussion or argument about which weapons are the best choices for self-defense. That topic has been covered to exhaustion on ATS ....

BTW - My personal choice for concealed carry is my Sig P229 (normally with a .357 Sig barrel).



posted on Jan, 16 2005 @ 07:41 PM
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Just to update this, I was just watching an episode of Cops, and one of the crimes covered was a man shot in the chest with a single .22LR, who ended up dead on the scene within minutes of being shot (must have hit the heart/major artery)

Just so that nobody thinks a .22 can be treated with less respect because it is less powerful.



posted on Jan, 16 2005 @ 08:40 PM
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All projectile weapons should be treated with respect, even a .177cal Air rifle can kill a person...



posted on Jan, 16 2005 @ 08:40 PM
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All projectile weapons should be treated with respect, even a .177cal Air rifle can kill a person...



posted on Dec, 23 2008 @ 06:55 AM
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reply to post by GrOuNd_ZeRo
 



if you get hit in the eye with a bb and it has enough force behind it, it can penetrate into your brain. the bone behind the eye is not very thick at all.



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