Please ATS Members and Non-Members alike, STOP Blocking Ads- Or there may be NO ATS at ALL

a reply to: SkepticOverlord

Maybe I'm really letting my ignorance show here...

Actually, no maybe about it.

But how is that not illegal?

That's no different then some thug coming in and announcing that "My, my, such a lovely shop you have here... It'd be a shame if something were to happen to it. For a small fee, every month, I'll make sure nothing bad happens...if you choose not to...well, things will happen, won't they?"

It's extortion.

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexanSounds like you are armed with the legal knowledge to protect consumers by taking adblockers to court for their extortion practices, as laid out in the OP of this thread.

I am armed with legal knowledge allright, but I would never take perfectly legal organisations that do perfectly legal things - like writing and maintaining adblocker software - to Court. Again, please refrain from throwing unfounded and surreal acquisitions around: neither people that use. nor people that write software to protect them from unwanted content are guilty of any offense. It's legal and probably the right thing to do too.

Its another thing entirely to give the product out for free to gullible consumers who truly do believe they will get something for nothing, then turn and extort websites with your new army of software equipped internet users with offers to buy "whitelisting".

You are now referring to Adblock Plus, right? Well, if you think that what they do is illegal - take them to Court! You won't stand a chance, believe me. Actually I don't like their business model either, but it is completely legal and actually quite fair towards smaller companies, whom can get whitelisted free of charge. 90 percent of all whitelisted companies stay well below the 10 million ad impressions per month. Only the big guys have to pay.

Also, at the end of the day it are the end-users that decide what they feel should be acceptable, not the adblocker companies.

So there you have it: you claim extortion is illegal...take this to court. Its the very definition of a protection racket.

No, it's a legal business model. I can't help it if it does not serve your needs, but it is legal.

It could be possible that ATS (or other similar sites) could take it to court. But that is expensive. And since folks are blocking ads, there just isn't the revenue to pay for it (which is the entire premise of the OP as I understood it).

Well, to be honest: there are no cure no pay lawyers which will gladly take on any case they think has half a chance to be won. The reason nobody takes the adblockers to Court is that there is no legal ground to do so. They are legal, like it or not.

a reply to: ForteanOrg

I am struggling to understand exactly why you think you have the right to decide what should and should not be on ATS?

This is a privately owned site not a public service and I would imagine that the owners can put anything they choose on their site including adverts if that is what they want to do.

It is like you expect to come into my house and make use of the facilities but expect me to cover up the paintings on the walls because they are not to your liking.

What do you do in the real world and you see an advert? Do you stumble about with your eyes closed? What happens if you are reading a magazine and you see an advert?

a reply to: TrueAmerican

OK I took off the Ad Blocker but I think they have blocked me... I have never seen nor do I now any Ads? The only time I do is when I am not logged in...where are these so called ads?

originally posted by: antar
a reply to: TrueAmerican

OK I took off the Ad Blocker but I think they have blocked me... I have never seen nor do I now any Ads? The only time I do is when I am not logged in...where are these so called ads?

Your stats mean you only get minimal ads, log out and see the difference.

originally posted by: nonspecific
a reply to: ForteanOrg

I am struggling to understand exactly why you think you have the right to decide what should and should not be on ATS?

This is a privately owned site not a public service and I would imagine that the owners can put anything they choose on their site including adverts if that is what they want to do.

It is like you expect to come into my house and make use of the facilities but expect me to cover up the paintings on the walls because they are not to your liking.

What do you do in the real world and you see an advert? Do you stumble about with your eyes closed? What happens if you are reading a magazine and you see an advert?

No... It's like walking into your house and choosing to not allow you to show me the bathroom. Or even deciding not to look at the pictures over your fireplace. It's not doing anything to the site. It's not like my blocker is going to your webpage and removing the ads. It's stopping them from displaying on MY screen and MY computer. The software/add on is on MY browser. It's not like I'm installing it on your server.

originally posted by: StallionDuck
It's not like my blocker is going to your webpage and removing the ads.

Actually, it is.

The way it blocks the ads is by modifying the website's code BEFORE it's rendered in your browser.

When a web page is configured by the server, it's sent to the end users with a Document Object Model that is the structure of the HTML sent out to whatever client requests it.

The AdBlocker sits between you (your client browser) and the web server. It looks through the Document Object Model (DOM)of the web page, and eliminates HTML, JavaScript, or styling that it believes to be advertising, then, after modifying the DOM, it's rendered in your browser.

They are indeed modifying my code before you can see it.

originally posted by: StallionDuck

originally posted by: nonspecific
a reply to: ForteanOrg

I am struggling to understand exactly why you think you have the right to decide what should and should not be on ATS?

This is a privately owned site not a public service and I would imagine that the owners can put anything they choose on their site including adverts if that is what they want to do.

It is like you expect to come into my house and make use of the facilities but expect me to cover up the paintings on the walls because they are not to your liking.

What do you do in the real world and you see an advert? Do you stumble about with your eyes closed? What happens if you are reading a magazine and you see an advert?

No... It's like walking into your house and choosing to not allow you to show me the bathroom. Or even deciding not to look at the pictures over your fireplace. It's not doing anything to the site. It's not like my blocker is going to your webpage and removing the ads. It's stopping them from displaying on MY screen and MY computer. The software/add on is on MY browser. It's not like I'm installing it on your server.

Yes but it is in the terms and conditions that you agreed to join the site on that you would not use ad blocking software??

So it's like my saying you are welcome to come into my house but please remove your muddy shoes and you saying well I am coming into your house but am not removing my shoes because my feet might get cold.

An agreement is an agreement and you are expecting the other party to uphold their end whilst openly stating that you are not going to uphold your end of the agreement.

Selfish is what I cal that, selfish and rude.

originally posted by: SkepticOverlord

originally posted by: StallionDuck
It's not like my blocker is going to your webpage and removing the ads.

Actually, it is.

The way it blocks the ads is by modifying the website's code BEFORE it's rendered in your browser.

When a web page is configured by the server, it's sent to the end users with a Document Object Model that is the structure of the HTML sent out to whatever client requests it.

The AdBlocker sits between you (your client browser) and the web server. It looks through the Document Object Model (DOM)of the web page, and eliminates HTML, JavaScript, or styling that it believes to be advertising, then, after modifying the DOM, it's rendered in your browser.

They are indeed modifying my code before you can see it.

So given that this is a conspiracy site could ad blockers potentially remove things other than adverts without my knowing then?

originally posted by: SkepticOverlordIn order for AdBlock Plus to show those ads, Eyeo GmbH, the parent company, want's in the zone of $5,000 per month in order to let those ads through. That's more than those ads would make.

In as far as I know - I'm not in any way affiliated or otherwisely engaged with AdBlock Plus - they only charge companies that display over 10 million whitelisted ads per month. You seem to fall into that class, well done!

As you say they will charge you roughly 5K$ each month and given that they "just" want 30 percent of the money you earn by displaying whitelisted ads, they hence assume you earn 17K$ each month from whitelisted ads.

From which they want 5K, which leaves you with 12K$. I guess that's sufficient to run the hardware, and perhaps pay a full-time guy, that's it. So, if that's all the income you have - no other day-jobs - it's not really a lot.

Am I correct so far?

originally posted by: nonspecificSo given that this is a conspiracy site could ad blockers potentially remove things other than adverts without my knowing then?

Certainly. So could virusscanners, firewalls and even your operating system. That's why it is probably a good idea to use Open Source software, as at least that gives you the option to inspect the code, compile it yourself and install the "trusted" version into your browser. Many eyes make bugs shallow and all that.

Of course, assuming you do not have an infected compiler, operating system etc. etc. that simply compiles in the offending code..

Anyway, you can build entire systems from publicly available (Open Source) code but it would require more than one person's lifetime - and a very well skilled person's lifetime for that! - to simply inspect all the code and ensure that nothing fancy has been done to it to allow others to steal your information. So, in short your only option is to trust the people that write all this stuff.

Given an Open Source alternative, I'd rather go with that, simply because the source code is available and there are probably at least some independent people that have "inspected" the code. But at the end of the day it's all a matter of trust - yes, your system might be infected. Even your processor might contain suspicious code...

a reply to: ForteanOrg

It just got me thinking when SO explained how it worked, if these companies are giving the software away en masse and then hitting the sites for big cash how do I not know they are also not stop me from seeing certain information then?

Take ATS for example, how do I know that certain threads could not be removed? or whole websites for that matter not coming up on google searches?

Sounds a little bit like a 3 letter agency plot to me....

originally posted by: ForteanOrg
In as far as I know - I'm not in any way affiliated or otherwisely engaged with AdBlock Plus - they only charge companies that display over 10 million whitelisted ads per month.

It goes by page views. We're in the zone based on page views.

As you say they will charge you roughly 5K$ each month and given that they "just" want 30 percent of the money you earn by displaying whitelisted ads, they hence assume you earn 17K$ each month from whitelisted ads.

Your math is way off. Image/link ads are the lowest-paying in the waterfall, typically $0.25 CPM at best, usually much less. Of that, publishers get half, $0.125 CPM. In order to break even, I would need to serve 40 million of those ads.

originally posted by: nonspecificTake ATS for example, how do I know that certain threads could not be removed? or whole websites for that matter not coming up on google searches?

You really don't. It's a trust thing.

Of course, from a more technical point of view, it is highly infeasible that such things would go undetected. After all, networks are constantly being monitored nowadays, packets are being inspected by hundreds of thousands of pieces of software in use, running on many, many types of devices all over the Internet. Some software is even hand-crafted, other stems from competing companies, based in countries that in turn compete and would love to find such holes in other folks software. So, unless these blocking efforts are done everywhere and simultaneously, they would be detected.

originally posted by: nonspecific
So given that this is a conspiracy site could ad blockers potentially remove things other than adverts without my knowing then?

It has happened.

When I was building the new HTML/CSS for the ATS update in 2013, I was giving elements names based on what kinds of ads would be targeted. It added in keeping things organized through naming conventions.

The prototype site used a class named, "ad-wide-center" in the object for displaying posts. One of our testers tried it with an ad blocker, and there were no posts on the page until I changed the name of the class.

originally posted by: SkepticOverlordYour math is way off. Image/link ads are the lowest-paying in the waterfall, typically $0.25 CPM at best, usually much less. Of that, publishers get half, $0.125 CPM. In order to break even, I would need to serve 40 million of those ads.

On the AdBlock Plus site they claim they only charge 30 percent of the income you make from actually DISPLAYED whitelisted ads. Do they lie?

Adblock plus has been in court. They were dragged to court by a company in Germany. Needless to say, Adblock plus won.

Adblock is legal. At least in Germany, as has been proven in court: betanews.com...

No doubt there are other companies that will try the same in other countries as well. I think the outcome will be the same.

originally posted by: SkepticOverlord

originally posted by: StallionDuck
It's not like my blocker is going to your webpage and removing the ads.

Actually, it is.

The way it blocks the ads is by modifying the website's code BEFORE it's rendered in your browser.

When a web page is configured by the server, it's sent to the end users with a Document Object Model that is the structure of the HTML sent out to whatever client requests it.

The AdBlocker sits between you (your client browser) and the web server. It looks through the Document Object Model (DOM)of the web page, and eliminates HTML, JavaScript, or styling that it believes to be advertising, then, after modifying the DOM, it's rendered in your browser.

They are indeed modifying my code before you can see it.

For ads that I specifically block by targeting them.

Your Server ------- Your Provider ------- (hops) Backbone (hops) ------ My provider -------- My Computer ------- My Browser ----- Ad Blocker ------ My Browser

Ad blocker plus shows something like:

Your computer - Ad Blocker - My computer

So it never actually touches your computer. It intercepts the ads before they get to my system. However, I don't understand the concept because it's installed on my browser so it HAS to originate on my computer before it removes the ad from my browser. I can't see how it would do it otherwise.

a reply to: nonspecific


I was on this site long before ad blocker was a thing.

Unless I'm forced to adhere to the TOS in this manner, I'm sorry. I will not comply. You would have to revoke my access. That would only stop me from posting. That would not stop me from seeing the site unless it was blocked for all blockers and ad blocker users. I don't think that would work. There is always a work around and there are always different softwares out there that can be used. If I wanted to be really anal about it, I'm certain I could find software that will let me bypass the restrictions while still blocking ads and any content I wanted and there would be nothing anyone could do about it, at least not long term. There are some versions out there this site is currently unable to detect. Of that I am certain. I mean if it was really that important to me...

a reply to: nonspecific

I don't think they're removing stuff - they're modifying it so you don't see ads, that's literally all.
They change the code before it gets to your end so you don't see ads, they don't change anything on ATS and they don't remove or censor anything, except ads.