Why and what for is prayer and bowing to a deity is needed IF there is a loving god who takes care?

a reply to: peppycat

No problem, ask away...

Well...the term "God" is missleading and too abstract and totally abused by those who deal in religious fundamentalism, IMHO.

What my relationship with The Divine is all about, is hard to tell in a few sentences. But I write about it in my writings. In my essays and the plays I write. So...how much time to you have to read my writings?

a reply to: Willingly thank you for replying. I am very interested in your relationship with The Divine, but I'm on my way out.
Maybe you could start a new thread with some of your writings so as not to get off topic in this one. Or if you prefer, you could PM me.
Even though I am a Christian, I have found great beauty in some Sufi poems and am very curious about your thoughts and feelings in having a relationship with what you have referred to as The Divine. I am also wondering what you consider The Divine to be.
Anyways, thanks again for answering my question and if you feel like sharing more, pm me or if you feel like sharing with the rest of ATS, a new thread of different topic about what The Divine is?
Peace

a reply to: peppycat


Annndddd...The Divine is:..............???.............Demnächst in diesem Theater.

Thanks for being interested in my writings. I don't think I will pm you, because I'm not too eager to spread around my un-published stuff anyway. But maybe I will post some of my essays anytime soon. What would be the right forum for that? This one? Or the philosophical/metaphysical forum? Maybe both.

It's a pleasure having a conversation with you.

originally posted by: Willingly
a reply to: Klassified

I have no idea why you wellcome me back. I've never been here before. Anyway...

I re-phrase my question:

IF there is a God, what for and why would that God want to be worshipped, bowed to, prayed to, IF that God is allmighty, allknowing, all powerfull, loving, caring, etc.? Wouldn't that be unneccessary, given all those attributes are what God is all about?

Imagine: That God you worship comes here and tells you, "please don't worship me. That's not neccessary. Just be nice and helpfull to your fellow human beings, if they deserve it. That's it. I just hang around here to tell you you don't have to bow to me or worship me. I rather bow to you, my dear devotee."

Wouldn't that be a much more logical and reasonable relationship between some God and its devotee?

That is what YOU, a fallible human being who truly knows nothing (and I am also a fallible human being who knows nothing) finds to be more logical at this moment. It is your subjective view, one that might have been different ten years ago and might be different ten years from now. It is not what is logical to me, nor to ChesterJohn, nor to another person, etc. Human logic is flawed, it is not infallible, it is certainly not objective.
Can't you see the possibility that your idea of what God SHOULD be like is invalid? Similarly, my idea of what he SHOULD be like is invalid as well. God is who He is -- or if it's easier for you to swallow, God is who he/she/it thing is. If there is a God,negative human opinions and judgment of Him are Infinitely more ridiculous and invalid than a bacterium judging a human being.
My understanding of God comes from Scripture, which as a Christian, I believe was inspired by God Himself. It is God's revelation of Himself.
Many people, even Christians, have the problem of ignoring what is revealed in Scripture and instead try to create God in their own image. I'm sure I've been guilty of that in the past as well.
We know nothing and we are imperfect. God knows all things and is perfect.
I'm paraphrasing once again, but in the Bible there's a verse that essentially asks, "does clay question the way in which is was fastened by a potter?"

a reply to: Willingly

(This reply isn't necessarily to this post but I just wanted to address you)

I know you dislike the idea of God as a Father (and seem to assume that anyone who views God as the eternal father has daddy issues..?), it's just one of the best comparisons we can make. It fails as a proper comparison because there is NO THING truly and wholly like God in all of His creation.
You say you were raised properly, but did you always see your father in a positive light? There were never rules or punishments you found to be nonsensical or unfair growing up?
As for me, I grew up in an abusive situation, and of course abuse is never right. Disregarding the inexcusable abuse, there were tons of rules my parents had that I thought were stupid and unfair, and like many besides myself, I thought I knew better and I had an idea about being a better parent than them. But as I grew up, and I'd wager it was the same for you, I matured and became more wise and came to understand the reason and motive behind many of those rules that I once thought were absurd.

Think about a child who is spoiled and given everything he wants and allowed to do whatever he pleases without repurcussions... What kind of person does that child grow up to be?

a reply to: Achilles92x

Sorry, dude, but I have no idea what you are talking about. Can you please boil it down to one or two sentences? Or a question. That would be very much appreciated. I'm kinda stupid, when it comes down to something like "objective truth" and/or "absolute truth" in the field of religion. Sorry!

a reply to: Achilles92x

I'm sorry to hear that your parents, especially your father, was obviously not a too good, funny and reasonable father. But my father was. I was never punished for anything, because that was not neccessary. I was able to get his message, being able to get his arguments at a very early age, when I was doing something inappropreate.

I can recognize a good and valid argument when it comes my way. That's what my father's legacy is.

a reply to: Willingly
Prayer is how we talk to God. Why wouldn't a parent want their children to tell him/her that he or she is loved? Do they have to? No, but as a parent, it's nice and is evidence of their bond, and is certainly appreciated. Does God need us to tell Him we love Him? No, of course not. You try having a relationship with your parents without telling them you love them or communicating with them and see how well that works out for you. Now, just because a child may not verbally express their love for their parents, that does not mean that the parent loves said child any less. Same goes for God; we're loved regardless, it's just the relationship is so much greater when that love is expressed.

Also, does God need us to tell Him what's wrong? Again, no. When you know something is wrong with your child or friend, you can even tell because you can read him/her like a book, doesn't it make you feel better when they trust you enough to tell you what's wrong?

a reply to: IsidoreOfSeville

Well...my mother, who is still alive, does know that I love her without me saying it. Because words are just words. And I know that she loves me, because her whole beingness, all her actions, are telling me that she loves me.

We, my family and I, my mother, my father, my sister and my brother are all true real existentialists. We never engaged in a god-concept...ever. Only I did, when it was time for me to get to know certain....stuff.

And when I say we are true real existentialists, that does not refer to anything someone like Jean Paul Sartre was all about. Because...I heard through the grapewine that he called for a cathlic priest on his death-bed. That's all one needs to know about his brand of existentialism, I assume.

So...what was it you wanted to tell me?

Just another thought from me, prayer is more for us than God, we pray for those around us which help's to shape our mindsets by keeping them in our thought's, we pray for justice which mean's we are less likely to inflict injustice on others, we pray for peace which mean's we are less likely to go to war or at least less inclined too, we pray in hope for a better world which means we are more likely to act in such a way as to make it a better world.

It defines our political belief's, our moral code's and our view of those around us and of ourselves.

What is it like to be a ship without a keel, a sailing vessel without no sail's turned to only the self and seeing all as animal's, surely this would promote the corporate interests of buy, buy, buy replacing society with corporations annual prediction's and becoming an asset to them to be exploited financially and nothing more so who gain's from that.

All society's from tribal through to modern civilization are based upon religious doctrine though that doctrine is seldom adhered too and today we are undergoing a massive social experiment run by secularist capitalist interests which is seeing our religon's sidelined, our faith's questioned and our society destabilised through the changing social attitude, I would even argue that this secularist movement is more harmful then drug dealers on a pan social scale.

Freedom of Belief and Expression within reason that is are fundemental to the west but today these very concepts are being exploited by secularist interests to promote influx of other religion's, to attack religious faith and replace a society of people with a society of consumer drone's whom base there self worth on there assets rather than in the christian faith which is the single largest religion to be almost exclusively attacked by these interests.

This indoctrination begin's with the nature of the media and even childrens programs in many western nations today and continues into the school system, college and university were progression becomes ever harder for they whom adhere to faith due to the often state sponsored push to denigrate the dominant religion of the west and promote both other religion's creating a babble of competing faith's and so actually favouring the adherants of other faith's and also to promote both secularism and atheism as more correct beliefs, these two paths being what the corporations want you to follow since they want to be your God, your prayers to them and your sacrifice being the hard earned sweat of your brown and the coat off your back, they want one hundred percent of your earning's and for you to die when you are no longer profitible.

When you get up in the morning do you say good morning to your family, if god is real is he not your family and is not a talk to him even if he does not verbally answer a talk to your other father, he may seem distant or even if you don't believe non existant but if you do then a prayer does not have to follow a formula it can be as simple as a one way talk to your god.

God, joe who used to work with me has lost his job, please can you help him he need's you and so do his wife and kid's

God I'll try to do what is right, please help me I know my own inclinations are often selfish and I sometimes ask you for the wrong thing like money or when I get angry with people who have done me wrong I get filled with bitter rage and I know this is not good for me, help me to forgive or at least forget what they did, help the scars to heal and let me never do what they did to me to anyone.

Hey God, I am not feeling too well right now, please would you look after my family and don't forget my friend's and my enemy's, if you are my father I know you are there's as well but I just don't get on with them and they hate me as well.

That kind of thing, just little talk's but they can be in any way you like, taking a walk in the country, up a hill and in a moment of peace and tranquility simply feeling that undefinable other presence or the lack of it, it is when we don't feel it we are more inclined to reach for it and simply talking about the day not asking for anything but treating god weather you believe or not as a person not a thing, not some great cornucopia but a person, a shoulder to lean on and someone to tell your problems and woes too and also acknowleding that you are probably not the only person speaking at the same time.

This is why I disagree with the argument against a personal god, if he is real which I believe he is then he is personal, he know's you now maybe he does not talk to you and maybe he does not reach down and stop you walking into that glass door, or from going bankrupt or even from being hurt or losing those you love but if is there then they are now with him and talking to him is talking to them since that same personal god was also with them all there live's and a child has to stumble before they learn to walk so why is he expected to help us out at every fall, he may very well do so.

Of course we also rant at our personal God and he know's our pain but in that it is at least bringing that wound to him even if we are wrong and it get's out of our system.

But it is one of those thing's in todays society, you either believe or you do not, some whose faith has been taken from them seek alternative's, there is a deep need for spiritual succour and so mentally and spiritually dangerous pursuits of the occult and other religions take hold leading these people down paths more open to exploitation.

Meanwhile Atheists think they are the future but they will never be able to change human spiritual nature and they will actually never be the majority even in a godless society, a widower return's home and sit's in his parlour alone, his wife is dead the past ten years but he still talks to her telling her all about the day even if he has no god he has faith and talks to the invisible and back to himself.

a reply to: LABTECH767

Walls of text, in which the term "God" appears, I don't read completly. Sorry. Please keep it simple and tell me what you wanna know from me. In less than 5 sentences. My attention-span is like that of a chicken, when I read that someone "prays" for peace and justice. I prefer to take proper (non-violent) actions to accomplish that sort of thing.

No offense, of course. I'm just saying.

a reply to: Willingly

Well perhaps using the word "express" would have been better for the situation. Your mother's actions are evidence of her expression of love for you. Prayer is but one of many ways we can express love for God.

What I wanted to tell you was that God doesn't need us to do anything! After all, He's God, right? Just as you show your mother how you love her, I'm sure she would love you even if you didn't show her. Same goes for God. Expressions of love tends to unite people, I dare so more so with God.

a reply to: IsidoreOfSeville

Like I said before, I don't deal in ANY kind of god-concept, whatsoever. And I already explained why that is the case. But for the sake of repeating myself, here once again: God is a term that is too abstract, too much abused by fundamentalistic religious theologians, and is also some word that is just been made up to get people to engage in pseudo-actions like praying.
Instead of engaging in the political field, or doing some solid social work, or just being kind and friendly to the ones who deseve it. Praying, IMHO, is utterly selfish and also a pseudo-action. It does not accomplish anything but keeping the ones who pray buisy and making him or her feel good for at least having done "something" about the mess we all find ourselfs in, regarding the pollution of the environment, war, crime, brutality and perversion.

Exposing the futility of prayer as something that actually does NOT accomplish anything, is what I deal in.

Know what I'm driving at?

originally posted by: Willingly
a reply to: IsidoreOfSeville

Like I said before, I don't deal in ANY kind of god-concept, whatsoever. And I already explained why that is the case. But for the sake of repeating myself, here once again: God is a term that is too abstract, too much abused by fundamentalistic religious theologians, and is also some word that is just been made up to get people to engage in pseudo-actions like praying.
Instead of engaging in the political field, or doing some solid social work, or just being kind and friendly to the ones who deseve it. Praying, IMHO, is utterly selfish and also a pseudo-action. It does not accomplish anything but keeping the ones who pray buisy and making him or her feel good for at least having done "something" about the mess we all find ourselfs in, regarding the pollution of the environment, war, crime, brutality and perversion.

Exposing the futility of prayer as something that actually does NOT accomplish anything, is what I deal in.

Know what I'm driving at?

I'm not sure how someone would know the kindness or good acts that everyone who prays does. How is it selfish to ask the Lord for strength when times are hard, so one can have the strength to help others?

a reply to: peppycat

Is what you call "Lord" in you or outside of yourself?

Are you and what you call "Lord" are seperate?

a reply to: Willingly I call God the Lord and Jesus Christ the Lord.
Ephesians 3:16-18
"That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his spirit in the inner man. So that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith, and that you, being rooted and granted in love, may be able to comprehend with all of th saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth''
Because I have faith in Christ on the cross, he is in my heart. Without Christ, I am nothing. All the good I ever do is from the Lord God through his son Jesus Christ and the glory belongs to God.

a reply to: peppycat

What ever, Chicky. I now go to some gas-station to get me a cigar. I realy need one.

originally posted by: Klassified

originally posted by: Willingly
a reply to: Klassified

I have no idea why you wellcome me back. I've never been here before. Anyway...

I re-phrase my question:

IF there is a God, what for and why would that God want to be worshipped, bowed to, prayed to, IF that God is allmighty, allknowing, all powerfull, loving, caring, etc.? Wouldn't that be unneccessary, given all those attributes are what God is all about?

Imagine: That God you worship comes here and tells you, "please don't worship me. That's not neccessary. Just be nice and helpfull to your fellow human beings, if they deserve it. That's it. I just hang around here to tell you you don't have to bow to me or worship me. I rather bow to you, my dear devotee."

Wouldn't that be a much more logical and reasonable relationship between some God and its devotee?

You're looking at it from a secular perspective. From a religious perspective, worship is an acknowledgement of the author of life. It is a respect and reverence of the sovereignty of god over creation. Giving honor and thanks is a common courtesy among humans. Is not god even more deserving of such? It isn't that god needs your prayers, or your worship. It is you who needs to do these things as a human. It's innate in us. You were created for gods pleasure. Life isn't about you. It's about god.

I could go on, but that gives you a glimpse into the religious mind as opposed to the secularist mind.

we were created for gods pleasure? life is about god? i can only speak for myself here, but i am not a toy and narcissism isnt my idea of an attractive quality in anyone.

a reply to: TzarChasm

I can't agree more.

Although the gas-station just had some cigarillos. See? That's how "god" is treating me, I want a cigar and what I get is cigarillos.

I agree , its ridiculous. If God is real then would he really want us to do that, I don't think the Jesus character would want any of this religion nonsense.