Why and what for is prayer and bowing to a deity is needed IF there is a loving god who takes care?

a reply to: Medicator

Yes, I think we are not supposed to "be saved by Jesus Christ" anyway. It's the other way around. We (I and I) are here to save Jesus Christ from being nailed to some cross once again.

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: Klassified

originally posted by: Willingly
a reply to: Klassified

I have no idea why you wellcome me back. I've never been here before. Anyway...

I re-phrase my question:

IF there is a God, what for and why would that God want to be worshipped, bowed to, prayed to, IF that God is allmighty, allknowing, all powerfull, loving, caring, etc.? Wouldn't that be unneccessary, given all those attributes are what God is all about?

Imagine: That God you worship comes here and tells you, "please don't worship me. That's not neccessary. Just be nice and helpfull to your fellow human beings, if they deserve it. That's it. I just hang around here to tell you you don't have to bow to me or worship me. I rather bow to you, my dear devotee."

Wouldn't that be a much more logical and reasonable relationship between some God and its devotee?

You're looking at it from a secular perspective. From a religious perspective, worship is an acknowledgement of the author of life. It is a respect and reverence of the sovereignty of god over creation. Giving honor and thanks is a common courtesy among humans. Is not god even more deserving of such? It isn't that god needs your prayers, or your worship. It is you who needs to do these things as a human. It's innate in us. You were created for gods pleasure. Life isn't about you. It's about god.

I could go on, but that gives you a glimpse into the religious mind as opposed to the secularist mind.

we were created for gods pleasure? life is about god? i can only speak for myself here, but i am not a toy and narcissism isnt my idea of an attractive quality in anyone.

Lol. Understand that I am speaking from a religious perspective, and using much brevity. Books have been written about this subject by Christian authors. As you know, I am no Christian at this point in my life, but I haven't forgotten the mindset. The concept of being created for god's pleasure doesn't mean for fun. It means for fellowship, and a relationship. An eternal one, eventually. Also, that it is about god means it is his creation, and accordingly, his will prevails.

The perspective of a Christian or Muslim is very different from our secular perspective. For them, God is the creator, and as such, his will for us, is more important than our will for us.

a reply to: Klassified

Klassified I have to give you credit.

But the god of Muslims and Christians are not the same. Seeing Christian know that Jesus is there God.

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: Klassified

Klassified I have to give you credit.

But the god of Muslims and Christians are not the same. Seeing Christian know that Jesus is there God.

I was under the impression that Abrahams first son, with Sarah's slave, Hagar, Ishmael, is the beginning lineage of Islam and therefore share the same God as Isaac and Jacob and on through Christ... thus being the same God as in Christianity.

a reply to: Klassified

"His will prevails"...well...who chooses to submit to some invisible male slave-driver, called "god", has my full and honest compassion. I'm not sure why spiritual masochism is such a big thing for certain religious people, but as long as they don't what me to join them, let them have their fun with their god-concept. I'm tolerant...to a certain degree...

originally posted by: Klassified

originally posted by: TzarChasm

originally posted by: Klassified

originally posted by: Willingly
a reply to: Klassified

I have no idea why you wellcome me back. I've never been here before. Anyway...

I re-phrase my question:

IF there is a God, what for and why would that God want to be worshipped, bowed to, prayed to, IF that God is allmighty, allknowing, all powerfull, loving, caring, etc.? Wouldn't that be unneccessary, given all those attributes are what God is all about?

Imagine: That God you worship comes here and tells you, "please don't worship me. That's not neccessary. Just be nice and helpfull to your fellow human beings, if they deserve it. That's it. I just hang around here to tell you you don't have to bow to me or worship me. I rather bow to you, my dear devotee."

Wouldn't that be a much more logical and reasonable relationship between some God and its devotee?

You're looking at it from a secular perspective. From a religious perspective, worship is an acknowledgement of the author of life. It is a respect and reverence of the sovereignty of god over creation. Giving honor and thanks is a common courtesy among humans. Is not god even more deserving of such? It isn't that god needs your prayers, or your worship. It is you who needs to do these things as a human. It's innate in us. You were created for gods pleasure. Life isn't about you. It's about god.

I could go on, but that gives you a glimpse into the religious mind as opposed to the secularist mind.

we were created for gods pleasure? life is about god? i can only speak for myself here, but i am not a toy and narcissism isnt my idea of an attractive quality in anyone.

Lol. Understand that I am speaking from a religious perspective, and using much brevity. Books have been written about this subject by Christian authors. As you know, I am no Christian at this point in my life, but I haven't forgotten the mindset. The concept of being created for god's pleasure doesn't mean for fun. It means for fellowship, and a relationship. An eternal one, eventually. Also, that it is about god means it is his creation, and accordingly, his will prevails.

The perspective of a Christian or Muslim is very different from our secular perspective. For them, God is the creator, and as such, his will for us, is more important than our will for us.

We will sacrifice our sons and daughters for democracy and sacrifice our democracy for much the same reason others kill those sons and daughters we sacrifice. The irony.

a reply to: Willingly

...I'm not sure why spiritual masochism is such a big thing for certain religious people...

Because guilt, fear, and perceived authority work very well on our species.

originally posted by: Willingly
a reply to: Pinocchio


What about my suffering fellow mammals, who don't live as comfortable as I do? Should I give thanks and praises for the suffering and pain they experience too?

I pretty much don't think so!

Your "Outrage" Is Notable And Greatly Expected. They... Like You... Will Die Inevitably.
So... Fret Not. But... If You Must Ask... See That You Now Know Your Calling!
See To It!

The World Is What It Is. You And I Both Have A Sentimental Attraction To All Life. We Are What We Are... Lets Plan Our Time And Execute The Agenda. "FOR MAMMAL(S)!"

a reply to: Pinocchio

Starting every word with a capital letter, should that tell me anything? And if so, what?


....Some day you will be a real boy too, Pinoccio.

a reply to: Willingly

Well Done Laddy... Well Done.
Congrats On Your Thread...

originally posted by: ChesterJohn
a reply to: Klassified

Klassified I have to give you credit.

But the god of Muslims and Christians are not the same. Seeing Christian know that Jesus is there God.

Obviously, but I was trying to broaden the scope of my comments to include other religions as well.

a reply to: Klassified

...to include other religions as well.

Eggzackly!

a reply to: Willingly

So, I was thinking about a solid example in history where prayer has had a physical effect on the world. Then it hit me; the the Battle of Lepanto. That link takes you to the version that is taught in school.

For the prayer piece...

On the eve of battle, the men of the Holy League prepared their souls by falling to their knees on the decks of their galleys and praying the Rosary. Back in Rome, and up and down the Italian Peninsula, at the behest of Pius V, the churches were filled with the faithful telling their beads. In Heaven, the Blessed Mother, her Immaculate Heart aflame, was listening.

To see the results, you can read here.

Now, I would like to add though that it is important to remember that this was not prayer alone. Which, if I understand correctly, is sort of what you're getting at. But I believe (just IMHO) that as outnumbered as they were, the Holy League should have been defeated.

a reply to: IsidoreOfSeville

No, prayer NEVER accomplished anything, whatsoever, although I think some think it does. But I just deny that as being the case. And it can not be proven to be a fact. No way. And you know it too. Guess why it can not be proven.

To boil it down to some very very basic stuff: My dentist does fix my teeth. My teeth do not hurt anymore, BECAUSE my dentist did something with them, so they don't hurt anymore. That's prove that dental-medicine works. No doubt about it, I guess, unless you wanna make a fool out of you.

a reply to: Klassified

I understand

a reply to: ChesterJohn

a reply to: Klassified

I understand

And I (and I) overstand....

originally posted by: Willingly
a reply to: IsidoreOfSeville

No, prayer NEVER accomplished anything, whatsoever, although I think some think it does. But I just deny that as being the case. And it can not be proven to be a fact. No way. And you know it too. Guess why it can not be proven.

Can I just ask if you have ever prayed?