UK Referendum 23 June 2016 - Will it be an EU BREXIT or Not?

originally posted by: moniker

originally posted by: anxiouswens
The referendum in 1975 was to stay part of the European Common Market NOT to give away our sovereignity to unelected beaucrats.

Oh my. Where do I even begin.

1. We are still part of the common market.
2. We have not given away our sovereignty to unelected bureaucrats.
3. The MEPs are democratically elected. The councillors are appointed by the head of state of each member country (so yes those are unelected in the same sense that the PM is unelected to the position as PM, but it is nothin like the unelected Lords).
4. Parliament is still the highest court in the UK. We have not given our sovereignty away regardless of what Denial Farage tells you. Only that they may refer certain matters to the ECJ whenever they feel it is appropriate, but it is at Parliament's discretion.

The UK and its people are subject to many laws defined and implemented in Brussels! Ridiculous (in my view)!

originally posted by: RP2SticksOfDynamite

originally posted by: moniker

originally posted by: RP2SticksOfDynamite
One thing is clear. After 9 pages of posts to this thread, only a very small number intend to vote IN so far. And the OUT voters are reporting that there associates, friends etc etc only seem to prefer OUT. Which is indicative of the fact that the so call official / media driven polls / others etc are being misreported! Doesn't surprise me.

It will be interesting to see what the final ATS vote count is in June. SO please keep posting the dirt, issues and points for debate and shame etc.

I will definitely vote OUT of the idea of the UK leaving the EU.

That is your prerogative and this ATS vote welcomes all IN, OUT and yet UNDEC votes and opinions to this thread.

Note at the moment that the IN vote is quite low. But time for it to improve for sure.

In our out won't matter and won't count.

The real vote will be about LEAVE or REMAIN.

originally posted by: anxiouswens
The referendum in 1975 was to stay part of the European Common Market NOT to give away our sovereignity to unelected beaucrats. My mum is 87 amd remembers it well. This was the wording on the pamphlet sent out by Government in the run up to that referendum

Still well worth a read, I'd say. Especially the parts in which it clearly states that membership approval is a continuous process, not a once-in-a-lifetime event. Only problem is that you managed to get "in" once - after a lot of French resistance - but can't be so sure you will get in again might your nation NOT do so well on it's own. You also would be well advised to read the parts in which it clearly points out that in a modern world "national sovereignity" is an illusion. Even more so for the Brits, whom today are a service-oriented nation (like mine) and can't do anything without the production force of other nations.

You're a bit like hogs there: you eat from the same through we all eat from. Where Germans and Chinese are busy providing the food for all, all you manage to do is moan about the menu. And then, one day, you decide not to have a say about the menu anyway. But you will still have to eat from the same through - and the Chinese will now have the main say in what you will eat.

Choose wisely - be sure brain is in gear before engaging vote.

originally posted by: moniker

originally posted by: RP2SticksOfDynamite

originally posted by: moniker

originally posted by: RP2SticksOfDynamite
One thing is clear. After 9 pages of posts to this thread, only a very small number intend to vote IN so far. And the OUT voters are reporting that there associates, friends etc etc only seem to prefer OUT. Which is indicative of the fact that the so call official / media driven polls / others etc are being misreported! Doesn't surprise me.

It will be interesting to see what the final ATS vote count is in June. SO please keep posting the dirt, issues and points for debate and shame etc.

I will definitely vote OUT of the idea of the UK leaving the EU.

That is your prerogative and this ATS vote welcomes all IN, OUT and yet UNDEC votes and opinions to this thread.

Note at the moment that the IN vote is quite low. But time for it to improve for sure.

In our out won't matter and won't count.

The real vote will be about LEAVE or REMAIN.

That was well deducted!

Call it what you wish. We STAY or we LEAVE.

originally posted by: ForteanOrg

originally posted by: anxiouswens
The referendum in 1975 was to stay part of the European Common Market NOT to give away our sovereignity to unelected beaucrats. My mum is 87 amd remembers it well. This was the wording on the pamphlet sent out by Government in the run up to that referendum

Still well worth a read, I'd say. Especially the parts in which it clearly states that membership approval is a continuous process, not a once-in-a-lifetime event. Only problem is that you managed to get "in" once - after a lot of French resistance - but can't be so sure you will get in again might your nation NOT do so well on it's own. You also would be well advised to read the parts in which it clearly points out that in a modern world "national sovereignity" is an illusion. Even more so for the Brits, whom today are a service-oriented nation (like mine) and can't do anything without the production force of other nations.

You're a bit like hogs there: you eat from the same through we all eat from. Where Germans and Chinese are busy providing the food for all, all you manage to do is moan about the menu. And then, one day, you decide not to have a say about the menu anyway. But you will still have to eat from the same through - and the Chinese will now have the main say in what you will eat.

Choose wisely - be sure brain is in gear before engaging vote.

Before voting to REMAIN! Because 5 years from now it will be too late!

originally posted by: anxiouswensI see you are from the Netherlands and appear to view the UK with contempt and you are just one person but your attitude is exactly how the whole of the EU seem to see us, we are OK to cough up the money but that is about it.

Well, I'm most certainly not viewing the UK with contempt, you're very wrong there. Like all European nations, the UK has a rich culture and history. It is entangled with that of many other European nations and has been - like many other cultures - an inspiration to me. In short: I deeply care about the UK (too). Go wash your mouth, young man

As the EU is so wonderful

Yet another oversimplification. No, the EU is not wonderful. But it has kept us out of war, provided a lot of good standards and acceptable guidelines, stimulated free trade, made it possible for Brits to work on the continent without any hassle (mostly in very well payed functions, gave the UK a HUGE market for their products. There are a lot of good things connected to your EU membership.

strange that Holland now seem to want a referendum also.

I'm Dutch and know of no referendum about our EU membership. There will be a referendum about the Trade Treaty with Ukraine (April 6th 2016). Which, BTW, will not change anything at all - it is a non binding referendum, and the Treaty already became effective last January. It will be merely a HUGE waste of tax payers money. Most voters don't even know what is IN that Treaty and they are confusing it - like you do - with a vote against the EU.

BTW: might we ever have a referendum about our EU membership I would of course vote "in". I'm no fool, the days of the VOC and our Dutch Golden Age have long gone. We did quite well in the last 50 years or so because of our natural resources (mainly gas), but they won' t last forever. We are a tiny, tiny nation that only survived because we always a) were kind to refugees and b) wanted to cooperate with other nations. I'm in favour of the EU, though like most Eurpeans with great hesitance. But in favour nevertheless.

I hope we leave in June and the money we give to the EU can be spent on our own Country and as we appear to be so irrelevant to the EU I am sure they wont miss our money will they!

It's symbiosis, so YES you would be missed. And you would miss us. So, why say goodbye? You won't benefit, you merely will then have to face your Welsh, Scottish and Irish partners, who'd be asking why they should spend good money on the UK if they could use it to forward their nations...

originally posted by: RP2SticksOfDynamiteThe UK and its people are subject to many laws defined and implemented in Brussels! Ridiculous (in my view)!

The EU Laws are defined in lengthy and well thought-out process, in which all EU nations have a say. Yes, if all have had their say and amendments have been applied - and the Law is passed by the Counsil of the EU - it's binding. That's not "ridiculous", that's democracy.

Here is an interesting article in The Economist regarding Brexit.......

The Brexit Delusion

For those interested, it covers some interesting aspects.......such as renegotiation under Article 50 (which we are signed up members of).

a reply to: Flavian

That was an interesting read, and certainly highlights the expected challenges of negotiating a new arrangement with the EU after a post 'leave' vote.
All the key words are 'likely' 'possibly' 'doubtful' 'unlikely' 'might' 'could' 'uncertain' etc, nowhere does it say 'certainly' 'impossible' 'guaranteed' 'definitely' etc, so it remains speculation.

That said, there is no certainty of what will happen if the UK accepts Cameron's 'deal' and remain in the EU either. The agreements in the deal are not set in stone and can easily be changed in a couple of years.
So, uncertainty in both arguments, and until/unless that uncertainty in both camps changes any time soon, I shall continue to vote 'leave' in June.

It is up to us all to consider the uncertain arguments of both sides and make our own uncertain decision on the day, but I hope the majority choose the speculative option that the UK will survive outside of the EU, as I believe it can.

a reply to: Flavian

Good read, thank you

I especially liked this quote:

As a Norwegian minister once put it, “if you want to run Europe, you must be in Europe. If you want to be run by Europe, feel free to join Norway.”

Perhaps the UK should opt to join Norway then

a reply to: ForteanOrg

That quote made me chuckle as well.
Why you think anyone would want a similar crap arrangement such as Norway for the UK though I can't imagine.
I'm voting leave with all the associated challenges of striking a deal as a sovereign nation similar to Canada, New Zealand, Australia and the like.

Please don't be lame and assert that such an option is not possible because you cannot know that. Even the above article makes no such claims, as I do not claim it will be all rainbows and unicorns if we vote leave.

Again, it is uncertain either way, and to assert absolutes into this debate would be dishonest at best.

a reply to: ForteanOrg
Canada, Austrian and New zelend show small country's can keep there sovereignty and still be economically strong .

originally posted by: grainofsand
a reply to: ForteanOrg

That quote made me chuckle as well.
Why you think anyone would want a similar crap arrangement such as Norway for the UK though I can't imagine.
I'm voting leave with all the associated challenges of striking a deal as a sovereign nation similar to Canada, New Zealand, Australia and the like.

Please don't be lame and assert that such an option is not possible because you cannot know that. Even the above article makes no such claims, as I do not claim it will be all rainbows and unicorns if we vote leave.

Again, it is uncertain either way, and to assert absolutes into this debate would be dishonest at best.

Agree! Why do we need to be in club EU and pay crazy subscriptions. How many countries are there all over the world that aren't in a club and doing OK. We already have club UK etc.

a reply to: crazyewok

Other countries even smaller manage it as tax havens, I'm not sure what could stop an EU free UK doing exactly that.
Heck there's enough dirty money floating around the City, might as well take even more of the shady income through banking secrecy legislation desirable to businesses and crooks.

Plenty of options if we keep our rational heads on.

originally posted by: ForteanOrg

originally posted by: RP2SticksOfDynamiteThe UK and its people are subject to many laws defined and implemented in Brussels! Ridiculous (in my view)!

The EU Laws are defined in lengthy and well thought-out process, in which all EU nations have a say. Yes, if all have had their say and amendments have been applied - and the Law is passed by the Counsil of the EU - it's binding. That's not "ridiculous", that's democracy.

I was referring to the UK having to be subject to laws agreed in Brussels by other country members. That's ridiculous and means the UK is semi-governed from Brussels! The UK should define and administer its own laws and not be undermined by laws cooked up by Eurocrat nitwits!

originally posted by: ForteanOrg
a reply to: Flavian

Good read, thank you

I especially liked this quote:

As a Norwegian minister once put it, “if you want to run Europe, you must be in Europe. If you want to be run by Europe, feel free to join Norway.”

Perhaps the UK should opt to join Norway then

Interesting quote.

We don't need to join anyone because if we leave the EU we are still in a club of 4! And there is no way that the EU will shun the UK if we leave. It would only make things worse for remaining EU members, assuming the EU survives without us - and they may not even with us!

I was swinging both ways until I saw an interview with Cameron on sunday morning ... he swung it for me .... LEAVE LEAVE LEAVE!!! His arguments were so poor and pathetic.

originally posted by: johnrobca
I was swinging both ways until I saw an interview with Cameron on sunday morning ... he swung it for me .... LEAVE LEAVE LEAVE!!! His arguments were so poor and pathetic.

Welcome to the LEAVE/OUT club.

originally posted by: johnrobca
I was swinging both ways until I saw an interview with Cameron on sunday morning ... he swung it for me .... LEAVE LEAVE LEAVE!!! His arguments were so poor and pathetic.

If a guy that shags pigs thinks its a good idea to stay in......well that another reason to vote out

a reply to: crazyewok

Manners and decorum please. Cameron actually is mostly on YOUR side too..