Can anyone give me a real reason Bernie is bad for America?

originally posted by: whatsup86

Sanders takes Scandinavia as an example... and has clarified that he’s not the kind of Socialist who favors state ownership of anything like the means of production.

So I think your view is a just a little distorted.

You should learn to read between the lines.

For example. Here is a website that is in favor of Sanders, and meanwhile they claim that "Sanders is still a capitalist who only wants to reign in destructive excesses of capitalism"... If you read in between the lines, what Sanders offers is the same thing as socialism...

...

Democratic socialists believe that both the economy and society should be run democratically- to meet public needs, not to make profits for a few.
...

www.berniesandersvideo.com...

That's the same thing as state ownership of the means of production... That is socialism, but Sander and his followers try to hide the truth with euphemisms and lies...

a reply to: deadlyhope

He's the real deal and acknowledges that he can do t alone; we have to vote out the crooks, wake up to be fact that we must each exercise our rights as citizens to take back our government. It should serve the betterment of society and not be bought off by a few. We must demand better governance and be willing to serve.
Sa. H

a reply to: TheTory

Here's my bolding, and perhaps we can agree on this common theme:


social ownership is the common element shared by its various forms.

There has never been a democratic socialist state, and no proof that democratic socialism is a viable option.

Except for Sweden, Norway and Finland. Democratic socialism can mean Social democracy.

Anyway, why did you switch your argument to being about the existence of democratic socialist states existing?

Democratic socialism exists, democratic socialists exist, and we have had successful socialist programs in this country working in our country for longer than you or I have lived.

If you wish to deny that that's fine I will simply have no reason to pay attention to you further then.

Socialist economies have consistently been disasters.

Except for Sweden, Norway and Finland.

You fund them, but you don't own them.

Translation social ownership is the common element shared by its various forms.

I believe Highways, schools, police, fire department, libraries, would all fall under that as well as many other things.

originally posted by: ElectricUniverse

originally posted by: whatsup86

Sanders takes Scandinavia as an example... and has clarified that he’s not the kind of Socialist who favors state ownership of anything like the means of production.

So I think your view is a just a little distorted.

You should learn to read between the lines.

For example. Here is a website that is in favor of Sanders, and meanwhile they claim that "Sanders is still a capitalist who only wants to reign in destructive excesses of capitalism"... If you read in between the lines, what Sanders offers is the same thing as socialism...

...

Democratic socialists believe that both the economy and society should be run democratically- to meet public needs, not to make profits for a few.
...

www.berniesandersvideo.com...

That's the same thing as state ownership of the means of production... That is socialism, but Sander and his followers try to hide the truth with euphemisms and lies...

Ehmm how exactly? Can you explain that instead of just saying that is the same thing? I can read between lines but thats just called speculating. You can twist anything any way you want if you read between lines.

And youre living in the most inequal western country.. How can a bit more equality possibly hurt you? Half of the western countries are basically socialistic and doing better than the US. How is that not something you want? All youre scared of is words. From where you stand any improvement probably is something socialistic, since the US is a country that has run wild in capitalism and right-winged thinking. Yes run wild. You religiously follow capitalism but there are no statistics that back up why you would do so, all I read is being scared of it because.... its socialism and thats somehow a bad word? Capitalism scares me because I look at the US and I see companies that basically dictate your government and are treated like individuals. Also how you condone that the rich are getting richer and poor poorer is just insane. Now that is actually scary and that is something Sanders is looking to tackle. You always were a society that was ahead and now youre way behind. Just because of religiously following capitalism.

a reply to: Grimpachi

Wrong, those are capitalist nations, with the apparent exception of Norway, which has some state ownership of the means of production.

Even with Norway's appearance of being socialist, it is not, that is state capitalism.

It's not his socialism that is his problem. He has the same problem all the rest of the candidates have. It's the one thing they ALL agree on. Keep the "defense" spending going at $600 billion a year , and run deficits that we expect the children to pay.
It doesn't matter what you do on the taxation side if you keep war spending the same proportion as its been for decades to the total discretionary national budget , which is about 50%.

So that's what is wrong with him and everybody else. At the same time , in the absence of true innovation the likes we haven't seen since the introduction of the PC , war spending is helping to keep the nation propped up economically. This is a nation of war.

a reply to: whatsup86

So , my brother and I worked our tails off. Born in the projects , he is now a doctor and I'm a business professional and we came out good solely due to our hard work. Not any give outs. We help our community by volunteering and donating. We are supposed to be penalized for this? I owe somebody for this ? The socialist crap only helps the lazy.

Out of all the candidates, Bernie is the closest thing to what I'd like to see in the White House.

But the puppeteers pulling the strings will put who they want in the White House, one way or another. The whole thing is scripted, and their pick will be president. Period. If by some chance someone they didn't want made it to the White House, they would either threaten him into submission, buy him off, or kill him.

TPTB will have their way, unfortunately.

a reply to: GodEmperor

Wrong, those are capitalist nations, with the apparent exception of Norway, which has some state ownership of the means of production.

Let me get this straight. Your argument is that because they function with capitalism they can't be social democracies?

FYI...That isn't an exclusionary factor.

What you seem to be referring to is communism. Communism is where there are no privately owned business, production, and they try to do away with money.

Socialism already co-exists with capitalism even in our own country.

a reply to: BatheInTheFountain

So he a Marxest and not a NAZI? Umm could be.

NAZI -- national socialist democratic workers party

You do know that the NAZI were in fact Social Democrats? and was a LEFT wing party not a right wing as most think of it. But the Russian Communist didn't like them so distanced them by calling them "Right" wing.


Good acticale on this:

mises.org...


Also if you want anther:

www.britannica.com...

a reply to: deadlyhope

Search his name here on ATS you'll find plenty of answers.

originally posted by: White Locust
a reply to: whatsup86

So , my brother and I worked our tails off. Born in the projects , he is now a doctor and I'm a business professional and we came out good solely due to our hard work. Not any give outs. We help our community by volunteering and donating. We are supposed to be penalized for this? I owe somebody for this ? The socialist crap only helps the lazy.

Where did anyone say you should be penalized for anything? And just because you donate doesnt mean the rest of your income-class does. Thats a very egocentric perspective and I bet rarely any do otherwise you didnt have a country of people slaving away for 60 hours per week. No no lets keep increasing the gap between rich and poor. See how that works out for you; probably will give you more work so you wouldnt mind.

You have absolutely no idea what socialist crap does. Help the lazy? Yea we all want to be lazy in Europe, were so much different... What a load of bs. You call people lazy that are: looking for jobs (have to prove it by showing applications), are mentally ill (we prefer to keep them off the streets here), chronically ill, disabled, retired or the elderly. You lack empathy if you call these people lazy.
And if youre aiming at people who arent as smart or fortunate as you, or just made mistakes early in their lifes so they end up earning less, they still will; but does it mean they have to suffer? They already have the #ty jobs and they have to work more as well. Thats a double sentence and a bit harsh dont you think? If anything those people are the ones that work 60 hours to make ends meet and you call those people lazy? People that once were part of the middle class are not lazy and thats what Sanders and socialism focusses on. Making a great country for the masses not the few. And the few is also considered the very bottom of society: dont worry you will still have your ghettos and thugs to look down upon.

If socialistic programs dont work in the US it is because you are doing it wrong and you have to improve or change them. Not remove them.

a reply to: Staroth

I admit I've seen some people reasonably and intelligently bring forth some negative aspects of Bernie. I retort that you could find this in any candidate, ever. All of them except Hilary are human, and bound to have their own ideas, opinions, etc that don't sit perfectly with everyone.. That will never happen. We have to split a nation for that to happen.

Most arguments I see are just dumb, though.

He's not a communist.
He's not going to charge anyone 90 percent tax.
He's not in terrible health.

And so on.

Can anyone provide a better choice? Saying one negative aspect on any candidate is easy. Offering a better choice though.. I haven't seen. And "none of them" just isn't going to get voted for, so let's get that out of the wah now.

originally posted by: GodEmperor
a reply to: pexx421

Under Bernie Sanders, school would be provided for free, so any high paying jobs that require lots of schooling should take drastic pay cuts. Also, under a Bernie Sanders, the top marginal tax rate would be around 90%, so let's say anything over 50k made in a year would be taxed at 90%; meaning the next $100k you made in that year you would only receive about $10k after taxes.

This is exactly my fear, and not because I would have to pay more. Where is my incentive to earn a higher income, if MORE of it will just be taken away? With this sort of plan, watch millions of people slump into positions of mediocrity, purposefully suppressing their own potential, so that they can earn as much income as possible.

And you asked who needs more than $100K annual salary? Wouldn't YOU want to earn that much money in a year? Some people DO need that sort of income to maintain their families and/or lifestyles. But I guess that's wrong? People should ONLY live in a certain manner, to appease those who have not worked hard their entire lives to GET that lifestyle? I suppose since I want to KEEP as much as I EARN, that makes me and people like me evil.

This is what we can expect from a Bernie Sanders presidency.. People will earn less, while the prices of goods and services will soar.

a reply to: smitastrophe

The top tax rate is 53 percent. Extremely ignorant people keep spreading the 90 percent lie.

a reply to: White Locust

How will you be penalized? Do you make millions ever year?

Probably not.

He's punishing those that have fortunes due to screwing the American middle class for years. Millionaires and billionaires who have off shore accounts. Billionaires who we bailed out and the like..

a reply to: deadlyhope

I guess Bernie gets to decide if those millionaires and billionaires made their money by screwing the American middle class..for years?

Mark Zuckerberg, you bastard, how dare you build Facebook from the ground up and then make money off of it!
Larry Page and Sergey Brin, screw you guys! How can you sleep at night, knowing that you engineered a search solution that is used by millions and billions of people. And then reap a profit? Argh! the nerve. You are right, Ol Bernie DOES need to punish these entrepreneurs, those uppity twerps!

People make the mistake that Bernie's plans won't effect them, just the filthy rich. I see a lot of blanket statements like these, and they are just flat out wrong. Over taxing populations hasn't worked and doesn't work.

The truth is, most people cannot give a good reason why Bernie should not be President. Politics is run mainly by emotion and ignorance. What else can explain why the masses continue to vote for the same people expecting different results. It's true Sanders cannot make change alone. He needs the will and support of the People. Continuing to do nothing or expecting nothing will feed the downward spiral America has been in for the past 40 years or so. How much further can we fall before the only option is armed rebellion? That hardly seems like a good option, but at a certain point that will be the only way to take back the rights the People have lost, and believe me, TPTB have only began hammering the public. Technology changes everything; and it advances at an exponential pace.

Bernie is a good man that represents everyman. As a democratic socialist, he simply wants the People to define and establish a base standard of living that every American has the right to. And why should we not do that? After a certain point, owning more millions and billions of dollars does nothing to increase a person's financial security or standard of living. It becomes impossible to spend it all. The thing is, all that money did not appear from nowhere. It ultimately came from the toil of many people. A single person cannot generate that kind of wealth from their work alone, so why should they resent sharing it so badly? That's avarice, pure and simple, particularly when those who actually do the work live hardly making ends meet, much less truly enjoying the fruits of their labor.

Bernie realizes that the game is rigged, and that it is largely fueled by Big Money. The People don't have that kind of money to sway the politicians, thus their voice is but a whisper and easily ignored. Moreover, it's obvious that elected officials can pretty much do what they want without accountability — because they keep being reelected. And it doesn't matter how a person votes; as long as he votes for the Uniparty everything is good and keeps the wheels turning, pushing America further into its downward spiral. Yes Bernie is running Democratic, but only because an Independent is not electable, and it would split the vote to favor the Republican party. Brilliant strategy, actually.

Bernie wants to raise the standard of living for 99% of Americans. He wants to lower the gross income of 1% of Americans (which will not impact their standard of living). He wants to separate Big Money from politics so elected officials are not so easily swayed by the will of the 1%. He wants to put an end to public policies that are corrupt and do not serve the needs of the People. These are the kinds of things that Bernie wants to accomplish during his term as President, laying a foundation that America can build upon to restore a government by the People, for the People. And, maybe this time around, the People will remain involved after Bernie is gone to continue his vision to make America a truly democratic republic where the rights of its people are not impinged upon; and where all men/women are created equal and given equal opportunity, or compassionate help when need arises.

Finally, I would like to leave you with this quote by George Carlin...

“Now, to balance the scale, I’d like to talk about some things that bring us together, things that point out our similarities instead of our differences. ‘Cause that’s all you ever hear about in this country. It’s our differences. That’s all the media and the politicians are ever talking about—the things that separate us, things that make us different from one another. That’s the way the ruling class operates in any society. They try to divide the rest of the people. They keep the lower and the middle classes fighting with each other so that they, the rich, can run off with all the #ing money! Fairly simple thing. Happens to work. You know? Anything different—that’s what they’re gonna talk about—race, religion, ethnic and national background, jobs, income, education, social status, sexuality, anything they can do to keep us fighting with each other, so that they can keep going to the bank! You know how I define the economic and social classes in this country? The upper class keeps all of the money, pays none of the taxes. The middle class pays all of the taxes, does all of the work. The poor are there just to scare the # out of the middle class. Keep ’em showing up at those jobs.”

So, I guess it all comes down to this. Assuming that Sanders is earnest, which most people do, then shame on you if you do not cast a vote for Bernie and demand that government work for the People. Well, unless you belong to the 1% and have lost empathy and compassion for your fellow man. You cannot feel shame.

a reply to: tabularosa

Very well-thought out, I agree with you.

I will not pretend to think Bernies exact ideas, tax rates, etc are perfect.

But my biggest pro-Bernie argument is, and always has been, and until further notice will be... That he is really against the rich and powerful that have hurt the average american for too many years.

No other president is as true and genuine to this cause. They may act it, but they receive SUPER PAC funding, and therefore whatever they say is what they are told to say, in my opinion.

Simple: Sanders is a politician. To think that he can win and do what he says he will during the campaign is literally just freaking insane.

We do this every four years...people rally behind two wannabe puppets, each whispering sweet nothings into the ears of the public, promising this and that, one wins and almost nothing changes for the greater good of the American people.

This my friends, is the definition of insanity...stop playing their game...