The People Had Overwhelming Force at the Bundy Ranch, and They Showed Restraint... But When...

originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: gpols

The problem is the Bundy group wasn't acting in accordance with the law to begin with.

And long before that, the BLM and other fed agencies were not acting in according with the law, which created this situation to begin with, then perpetuated and escalated it. I have never given the Bundys or their methods my support and I have stated as much many times. However, nothing the Bundys -- or anyone -- says or does changes the past, present and future abuses of power by the feds.

Had they been I don't see any reason why the FBI (That does investigate other federal agencies) wouldn't find reason to rectify the situation. As it has been clearly documented by previous court rulings that the BLM has history of acting out of political interests.

And yet, their abuses continue. What has the FBI done about it? What have our elected representives done about? What have the courts done about it? Not enough, if anything, because the abuses continue.

I could not have said it better

a reply to: Boadicea

Is there any evidence that the Bundy's called the FBI and reported their issue to them? If not then they aren't going to do anything about it.

The fact remains the Bundy's and these folks involved here have a long legal history with the BLM and taking them to court. A long legal history that deals with the BLM taking the Bundy's to court for not paying federal grazing fees.

And the abuses will always continue when folks like the Bundy's get together with some of their buddies and decide to takeover a Federal Building, instead of doing the right thing.

These guys were ranchers that sit around and talk crap about the government and how bad it is when a lot of their legal troubles were brought upon them by their own actions.

a reply to: gpols

Pretty sure the fees wouldnt have been an issue if thats all it was. BLM wanted the fees, cut amount land available for grazing and reduce hurd size, if my understanding is correct. Dont take that as i side with Bundy, id have to know all the facts... If he is indeed being railroaded (wouldn't surprise me at all) cant blame him or his supporters... Even their tactics are justified because the people doing the railroading own the system, imo. Its his livelyhood he's fighting for.

As for original op.... lE typically go into a situation expecting it to be worst case scenario, for militia its easy to show restraint because they know/expect the LE to show some restraint.

originally posted by: InMyShell
a reply to: Flatfish

What they did is pathetic, it's ignorant, it's illegal, it's archaic & uncivilized and above all else, it promotes violence.


Are you taking about the bundy group or the government?

I'm talking about the Bundy group and the Oregon group!

As far as I'm concerned, the govt. exercised great restraint while dealing with both groups, (more than I would have) and are fully justified in their actions.

originally posted by:
InMyShell

Can your seriously say these people need to use EXPENSIVE legal actions when they don't stand a chance in hell against the corruption of the government.

The people of the US are living under an elitist rule that has the law for the people and the elite are above the law.

These men and women used their constitutional right to take up arms against a tyrannical government.

Yes they should have taken the legal route regardless of the expense. Money is easy to raise, raising the dead is quite another story.

Furthermore, those nuts wouldn't know their rights from their lefts because their too damn stupid.

If anything, these types of stunts will only lead to a loss of the very rights they hold dear.

I'm just waiting to see how many will be barred from owning guns in the future for using one while committing a felony.

Now how ironic would that be?

a reply to: gpols

Gotcha. You will throw the full force and weight of the nation against ranchers all the while excusing the abuses of power by the feds.

Okay. Thanks for the heads up.

Didn't Obama give him self the power to
assassinate US citizens any ware in the world?
hes just puting it to uses.

originally posted by: Sublimecraft
a reply to: TrueAmerican

Irrespective of what Mr Finicum may or may not have been doing in the moments leading up to his death, I witnessed a terrorist cell murder an American citizen in cold blood. If the FBI were serious about serving justice to this individual they would have done it soon after this entire episode began, instead, they acted true to form and exercised subterfuge & ambush tactics - resulting in the execution of an American citizen.

Those individuals who side with this murderous act do not deserve the protection of the Constitution when they clearly endorse this slaying instead of demanding the legal prosecution of LaVoy Finicum in a court of law so that a jury can decide on the validity of his apparent wrong doing.

He was murdered by the US government, folks need to wake up to this simple fact.

My problem with government and police is the first step is to escalate the issue. They always use force to reconcile a situation. Now, some situations call for force. But why do we not allow some amount of argument or discourse to occur before throwing someone to the ground and stepping on their head?

You know what? It doesn't matter if you come up with the most brilliant way to govern people (or not to), there will always be those who seek power. They will always try to rise above, steal, pillage and take from others to become stronger. They are cowards and only fear equality.

If you ask me, the question shuold never be, "How do we stop/find those in power", but rather "How do we stop those from coveting power"?

a reply to: TrueAmerican
Ya they handled that last part there kind of stupid. I think they knew how it was going to go down, I mean everybody knew how it was going to end. # I payed very little attention to this and thought it was going to end something like this, and if there were no live feed cameras and women and children in camp this may have happened earlier. To much cowboy or action movies some people watch me thinks.

But if there is big money in them hills, as some said people tend to get serious. And even then, its the government were talking about here, they spend a billion to make a million, only corps or some few make profits, and even then it has to be propped up by tax dollars in some cases.

Anyways that little roadblock stunt, they did it wrong. It was a set up no doubt, and as it had no audio cant really tell much even from the closer zoom the drone was using, that thing may even have been armed as I seen a beam of red on the Lavoy's head and around the area after he was killed, but could just have easily been the agents around the area lazer scoping him.

Its pretty bizarre and I am sure any infiltrators into there little camp would have given them ie CIA or whoever word on what was going on. And yes its pretty standard that when such things happen you send in people to infiltrate and covert, its really not hard to do, dont know why people are so surprised about that, its like expecting a bear to not # in the woods.

# even the teens protesting back in the whole occupy wallstreet thing had marks in there groups to incite them or for various reasons. But lets just say that if you can infiltrate whole other nations a little group like these militia men is not that hard to do.

But whatever you know, still the whole thing on both parts was like a monty python sketch I say. Even that video from the other thread somebody posted were somebody in milita group asks people to sign talent release forms, one of them says " say what?.. what does that mean?" and another in said militia runs into view to quickly turn off the supposed live feed camera. If that kind of hijinx was going on in said camp oh ya, a benny hill operation for sure.

Who knows whats going but its likely to get more eyes fixated on that part and the BLM now, which really is what this guy Lavoy and the even the bundies wanted. Not that it matters either way. Though they could have handled that roadblock a bit better.

So overdramatic, I mean first of all they should have let them go see the sheriff. The only thing that was going to happen was they get handcuffed and arrested right then and there, and after they leave there guns at the door to get in to talk to the serif, or they go in sheriff tells them this is going to go nowhere and you all need to go home.

# they should have let them go back as well, and to my knowledge that wildlife reserve was deserted, some even said they found the key to it of all things, how the hell do you just find the key to a wildlife refuge even if its supposedly abandoned. They would have went back, and even if it took another month no sweet off anybody's back, let them go back to wherever they came from after the food runs dry and everybody has had enouph of freezing there butts off and they come to the realization that just maybe nobody cares, and they go home.

And then send them a court date when they get home, and fines and take it from there. They may be planning on staying there a long time, but if you cut off traffic and food, they will slowly wither away, which looks like what was happening, they even going to so call see the sheriff about ending it. Or if not it was getting there if albeit slowly.

But the whole roadblock take them on the way was needless and dramatic, in fact taken right out of the encyclopedia dramatica playbook. Dont know if they were shot at in that first stop, but even if your going to be setting up a roadblock at least do it in plain view and not around a freaking bend. Let them see it ahead plenty of time, and let them sit and stew for more then a second and eventually even the most hyped would think twice about this whole thing, or trying to swerve through the snow.

It looked like they swerved more because they just saw the roadblock instead of because they were trying to get away. There ranchers right? I would think they would know not even a truck with chains or four wheels would get anywhere in that offroad snow.

It was pretty stupid trying to bring it to a shoot out, is what I am saying. The guy even came out with hands up, then after they shot him they seemed to have flashed bombed the truck and shoot it up a bit, but really the whole scenario was completely unnecessary. But I suppose people got there little gun fight that they wanted, if you can even call it that as it was one sided. Oh ya! These dudes did not seem like hardened ready to take down the FED or anybody type of people in a blaze of bullets and glory that's for sure.

Whatever this whole thing is about they painted at least this guy LaVoy Vinicum in the wrong light thats for sure, and just likely made a martyr of him. Not to sure about the bundies, but I don't really care, that's what the ranchers special interest groups in government is for, seems now a days everybody has a special interest group in its pretty much the American way and has been for a long time. Most especially were prospects of potential big money may be involved. Though I would not bet to much on yellowcake uranium stocks going through the roofs, like lithium it to can be replaced. But still uranium has its uses thats for sure.

I think this is more a case in using the wrong procedures to handle this whole thing on both parts. They made a deadly issue in what seemed to be not that big of an issue. So what some people take over what is supposedly an abandoned gov building in a wildlife refuge, and declare things which 99.9% of Americans would not even know or care about. It was a comedy sketch which turned into a lame ass gun fight with one dead and over nothing all that important but repec my authority.

I still say that if they did not announce that they have taken over that supposed wildlife facility 50 miles from any nearby town that has population higher then 300 people then nobody would even know they were there, even if they were there for months. Not at least till summer when the park may get visitors, but if it was shut down like some said who knows right.

Hey I got an idea, they should set up a life feed in that area once everybody goes home. I want to see just how many turtles actually are in that area or go by in the habitat, because if reports of uranium in the area are true and if they actually start drilling and mining, I do believe the population of turtles may drop for that area.

Also just to see who actually goes to that wildlife reserve area on any basis. Usually they have a life feeds of area in some of these wildlife refuge places, was watching one at the some mountains in WA and the place was completely snowed in even on the parking lot cam, but could not find any on the Malheur national preserve website, says the whole park is shut down till further notice. Hopefully they will install a camera and life feed after this whole thing is over.

RIP LaVoy Finicum, he at least died for what he believed in. Even though I the whole thing may have been a bit posthumous.

originally posted by: AngryCymraeg
a reply to: TrueAmerican

There's no evidence that the stationary car was fired on, but we do know that this man was a paranoid whackdoodle with delusions of relevance. Trying to drive around a roadblock in the snow was a bad idea, running was a bad idea, reaching for his waistband was a bad idea. And yes, he will be forgotten.

Lavoy had his hands up. he got shot in the stomache, he reacted to cover his wound. (Which SHOULD be a normal reaction after getting SHOT, other cops thought he was reaching for something because turns out, his wound was near his POCKET, and he was executed for doing so.


That in my book is called MURDER. The cops knew what they were doing. And the "Unedited Video" happens to be without sound. How convenient.

I haven't read through all of the posts and comments made about this situation right here in Oregon, but has anyone considered that Ammon Bundy set this up? Maybe he didn't intend for anyone to run, or die at the hands of the law, but a couple things seem odd.

Why, after all this time, did they not just arrest him when he and his posse were parading around town? They could have easily walked into the restaurant they ate it, the stores they shopped at etc.

It was a little bit too convenient, for me, that they arrest him on his way to meet with the FBI (All the way in John Day from what I've heard?) Surely he would have considered the idea that they might have been planning to "ambush" him. But no, he freely gave himself up to law enforcement, and made a quick plea for the rest of the occupiers to return home to their families.

A man that holds certain values, and went through all the trouble to occupy and hold their ground at a government complex, does not seem like he would give up that easy.

Could Bundy have struck a deal with the feds to save himself? A deal to, possibly, lower the charges, or perhaps something to do with his father? Something smells coming from Bundy in my opinion, and if any of this were the case I think his supporters might start leaning in a different direction.

originally posted by: 4N0M4LY
I am not condoning what the FBI did as any way to solve the situation and what they did was flat out wrong.

LAST TIME I CHECKED. If I was pissed off at what the government was doing I don't go rolling into the IRS building armed with weapons unless I was prepared to die with a bang and intended to kill something. I don't know what the f*ck is wrong with people thinking that stuff was ok.

FYI you will get tagged as a criminal and arrested. They were morons. They will be remembered as such. Suck it up and deal with it.
--------------------------------

HOLD THE FBI accountable or you will see a repeat of this again when a UNARMED protest happens.

I ran this post in it's entirety through google translate and got this: "Just cuck my # up fam".

What does this mean

originally posted by: TrueAmerican
A guy who never even had as much as a speeding ticket on his record and was entrusted with the lives of some 50 foster children?

so this guy likely ruined 50 lives and countless others indirectly
molding a bunch of children into brain dead fanatics

and this information is supposed to make me sympathetic?
sounds like recruitment tactics to me
(probably got that from whatever asinine church he attends)

originally posted by: fartlordsupreme

originally posted by: TrueAmerican
A guy who never even had as much as a speeding ticket on his record and was entrusted with the lives of some 50 foster children?

so this guy likely ruined 50 lives and countless others indirectly
molding a bunch of children into brain dead fanatics

and this information is supposed to make me sympathetic?
sounds like recruitment tactics to me
(probably got that from whatever asinine church he attends)

Was he a teacher in a public school?

That's what you appear to be describing.

a reply to: SoulSurfer

I believe so. And this testimony from Shawna Cox confirms it:



Sounds like they were firing at the car even before LaVoy got out of the car.

MURDER, plain and simple.

a reply to: Bundy

other than your obvious distaste for youth culture what seems to be the problem?
it is abundantly clear that the average high school student would absolutely destroy you in a debate or any kind of intellectual conversation so its certainly not the education (which is abysmal but still leaps and bounds better than it was in whatever dark age you seem to be stepping out from)

so no thats not at all what im describing (and i should know seeing as how im the one you know....doing the describing)
maybe youre not quite as astute as you would like to believe
but thats how its always been with your kind....a numbers game.... quantity over quality ....every time

Regardless of this outcome, the shooting, there was a safer way to apprehend the militia without killing one.

I am sure many law firms are looking into this. What was done was barbaric from the State police with the Feds backing them.

There is a lot of questions that needs to be address here. Regardless of all the stupid videos of the militia some saying they wanted to die in a gun blazing battle, that was all talk. The militia wanted this to end peacefully.

I do not think this is over yet.

a reply to: TrueAmerican

youtu.be...

originally posted by: Informer1958
The militia wanted this to end peacefully.

If they had wanted that then they would have just left and gone home. But as we have seen that is not what they want!

originally posted by: Informer1958
The militia wanted this to end peacefully.

oh i doubt it
they just didnt want to get shot
more than anything though they wanted attention and to feel important because they have massive inadequacy problems brought on by life style choices that have turned them into fat dumb buffoons with a penchant for greed and violence

I do not think this is over yet.

not by a long shot
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."

Notice how even despite the presentation now of two witnesses who were there, the provocateurs, MSM, shills, trolls, and gubbmint lapdogs continue distort, misdirect, and try to confuse.

There is no confusion. Not for those with brains.

And as an update it has been some 20 hours or so that there has been no update from the compound:

www.youtube.com...

Military vehicles have been seen entering Burns, Oregon. All of this for four people with pea shooters? If they were that concerned, they could just fire a couple of chemical weapons into the compound to cause instant loss of consciousness. They walk in, take the weapons, and carry them off. It's over.

But no, they are going to riddle them with bullets instead (if they haven't already- no one seems to know what the status of those four in the compound is right now). It's just overkill as usual. And it further helps to illustrate what this thread is about.